Dept of Justice WARNS Apple & US Pubs over ebooks

bdarner

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I did not know this was happening. It sure is crazy though. That kind of pricing for electronic files is ludicrous. I am glad I never bought an e-reading device. For those kind of prices, you might as well just buy a physical copy.

I can definitely see why that would be seen as obvious collusion.
 

PortableHal

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I am glad I never bought an e-reading device. For those kind of prices, you might as well just buy a physical copy.

I bought my wife a Kindle (she didn't much want an e-reader, either). Within two weeks, it became her constant companion.

I've met a few people who felt the same way...until they received one as a gift. Give it a try, bdarner. You just might like it.

Oh, and *boo* on price-fixing.
 

Paul

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hmm, seems more like an attempt to stop Amazon gaining absolute control of the e mkt. interesting all the same.
 

Mr Flibble

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Boooo to the US Department of Justice


Care to expand? (Truly interested)

I know the reasons the bigger pubs give for ebooks being as or more expensive as paper books, but....well, they need to change their business model perhaps? Because many people, myself included, aren't going to pay the same price for an ebook as they do for something tangible. Maybe that says more about perception than anything else? But a lot of pubs put out ebooks at a price that seems fair compared to paper back. My own, for instance, I think the most expensive is $6.50. About £3, which seems fair to me. The lure of the ebook for many is the price - want to take a chance on a new author? It's only £3, if you don't like them, no biggy. But if you have to pay more than for the paperback...I'll just try another author/publisher, thanks. Keeping ebook prices high isn't helping sales, I should think.

Like I say, I'm aware that the bigger pubs say the costs involved are around the same but... (and of course I've heard them trot out the 'well sales aren't high'. Well, no, perhaps they aren't because people won't pay the price?)

Like I say, maybe it's perception that's the problem. But paying more for a virtual product than a real one seems arse about face to me as a reader.
 

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I will expand when I'm not so tired but basically we don't set print prices. Essentially we want parity between e- and p- - which I think is a bit off, because really I think Ebooks ought to cost a little less than print; but that's the idea. Of course because Amazon acts as a reseller for print books they like to discount them off our notional RRP until they are cheaper than the equivalent agency-model ebook edition. This is purely in order to make us look bad. ("This price has been set by the publisher.")

There was, to the best of my knowledge, no collusion or cartel involved here. If the DoJ wants to go after monopolists distorting the market they ought to look closely at Amazon rather than six competing publishing businesses.
 

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It's selling a range of products for a range of prices decided on by the person producing it. It's not collusion between producers to fix the price of a commodity. If we were selling corn or pork bellies, maybe.
 

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The other problem with paying regular retail prices for e-books is that, as things are now, you don't actually own the book. You own the license to read that book, and the retailers or publishers can suspend that license at any point they wish.
 

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Before you get one check to see where it will let you buy books for it. I've heard that Kindle can only get books from Amazon.

I believe you can get ebooks in files compatible with Kindles from numerous non-Amazon sites.

And go, Department of Justice. The prices charged for many ebooks are oddly high.
 

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The other problem with paying regular retail prices for e-books is that, as things are now, you don't actually own the book. You own the license to read that book, and the retailers or publishers can suspend that license at any point they wish.

Which is one reason I'd argue they should be slightly cheaper. But really I think publishers ought to be able to set the price they sell their products at even if it is foolishly high. If they're colluding, rather than competing, it becomes a problem, but I don't see any evidence of that.
 

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It's selling a range of products for a range of prices decided on by the person producing it. It's not collusion between producers to fix the price of a commodity. If we were selling corn or pork bellies, maybe.

It is, to be specific, selling a price that a retailer cannot change or discount. Historically, and indeed currently, this meets the definition of price fixing under the Sherman Act. I am not sure why it should not apply to books just as it does to handbags or bacon. I am not arguing should or good, but law.

Their only plausible legal defense is that they had to be anti-competitive because Amazon was being even more anti-competitive so Agency pricing was the lesser evil.
 

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It is, to be specific, selling a price that a retailer cannot change or discount. Historically, and indeed currently, this meets the definition of price fixing under the Sherman Act. I am not sure why it should not apply to books just as it does to handbags or bacon. I am not arguing should or good, but law.

Doesn't the Sherman act require either collusion or monopoly?

EDIT: And what's the benefit of forcing the price of ebooks to be effectively fixed by a monopolist - Amazon - at below cost in order to entrench that monopoly?
 

veinglory

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Doesn't the Sherman act require either collusion or monopoly?

Nope. As I read it (and I am not a lawyer--I just looked it up) preventing retailer discounting is quite sufficient, and has been prosecuted in the past (vertical restraint, specifically resale price maintenance).

The law may or may not be an ass, but it is what it is. If the retailer cannot discount without losing supply, this lessens competition, arguably unfairly. It also suppresses entry of new businesses into the market.

Their best defense is indeed that Amazon's own predatory acts required this response to maintain a viable market. Normally the publisher has more power than the retailer and so it was the retailer that needed the protection. But it is still price fixing under the act, but some kind of 'self defense' price fixing.
 

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Nope. As I read it, preventing retailer discounting is quite sufficient, and has been prosecuted in the past (vertical restraint, specifically resale price maintenance). the law may or may not be an ass, but it is what it is.

Weeelp, *sticks thumbs in braces* I'm not no big-city lawyer, but it seems to me that kinda sucks. I mean, if the price for ebooks bobs down to the level Amazon seems to want in order to sell lots of Kindles, then we just lose the ability to actually publish ebooks.
 

Mr Flibble

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Weeelp, *sticks thumbs in braces* I'm not no big-city lawyer, but it seems to me that kinda sucks. I mean, if the price for ebooks bobs down to the level Amazon seems to want in order to sell lots of Kindles, then we just lose the ability to actually publish ebooks.


Okay, here might be the best place to ask this, cos I have a Torgo :D

So publishers put out a print book. They have costs, obviously, editing, overhead, distribution etc etc

If they then decided to put out an ebook (for instance, it was a separate endeavour) what actual extra costs are you incurring? Formatting, sure, but that can't take that much money per book. And you're saving on other things. So, because this confuses me a tad (and I knwo I ain't alone), though I kind of understand it, why is the cost as much or higher? You've already done the editing/cover/etc for the print book.

Cos the thing is, I r writer, not accountant, and I read these articles and...you know the noise the adults make in Charlie Brown? Yeah, like that.

Can Torgo (or someone) explain in words of one syllable :)D) why the ebooks need to be this price for the publisher to make a profit? Is it possible/reasonable for the publisher to change their model so they could make a profit on cheaper ebooks? (I mean it should be, plenty of epubs make a decent profit, even though their ebooks are waaay cheaper than a paperback).

I'd really like to understand it properly. It won't make me buy an ebook at the same price as the paperback, but I'll at least understand it. Because to your non-accounty person, it's..counter-intuitive.
 

Deleted member 42

Weeelp, *sticks thumbs in braces* I'm not no big-city lawyer, but it seems to me that kinda sucks. I mean, if the price for ebooks bobs down to the level Amazon seems to want in order to sell lots of Kindles, then we just lose the ability to actually publish ebooks.

Yes. Exactly.

Look, Amazon doesn't have any business telling publishers how to price their books when they sell to Amazon or other distributors, wholesalers, or retailers. Amazon is distributing and retailing commerically published ebooks that do not cost Amazon anything to make.

So with what is a tiny infrastructure investment in servers that are already part of Amazon's expense sheets, a small investment compared to what a single publisher invests in a year in producing ebooks that are day-and-date release of printed books, Amazon has a larger potential profit, because their costs are lower.

From a publisher's point of view the ebook doesn't cost all that much less to make compared to a printed book. The advance and production costs are identical up to the fork for ebook production. On a book by book basis, affected in part by numbers printed, size, and binding, the price differential falls somewhere between 1 to maybe 3 dollars.

Compare a printed book retailer with substantial space costs, employee costs, etc. to Amazon's costs to sell an equivalent number of books. It takes more space and more people to sell say 5000 unique titles with 1 to 15 copies per title, than the same number and titles as ebooks. Those 5000 titles will fit on a single server, and you only need one person or less to deal with it, in terms of support/Customer service/inventory etc.

So Amazon's overhead is much less than the publisher's or a retailers. They don't care if the price is unrealistically low in terms of cost of production and likely sales. Amazon will make it up on quantity.

But it would take a much much large quantity for the publisher to make a profit.

But by making themselves both the cheapest and the largest inventory, Amazon has a great deal of influence on the market--hence their gorilla tactics of removing publishers and distributors who do not fall in line.

Honestly, I think Amazon not the publishers or Apple needs to be looked at.

The agency model is better for authors too; authors need to be paid based on the cover price, ideally, but often they are paid based on what the publisher actually receives. There's a reason authors and agnets are cautious about contracts which pay royalties based on net; net can be creatively defined, and often is.

Conventionally, a publisher has a wholesale price; this is affected by things like how many books a bookstore or distributor buys.

The bookstore then determines what price they wish to sell the books at; it may be cover price, but it often is less.

Amazon is telling publishers you will sell us this book at a price which we have chosen irrespective of what the book's actual P&L suggests the price for this book to a wholesaler/distributor/bookseller should be.

I'd argue that Amazon is attempting price fixing, and a monopoly.

Note by the way that authors will not fare all that well under Amazon's plan.
 
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Terie

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So has anyone noticed that most print books are fairly close in price, regardless of publisher? (Or at least the bigger players. That is, micropresses using POD technology aside.)

How is e-books having similar prices across 'manufacturers' different from print books having similar prices? What am I missing here?
 

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yes, as Med says.

to me the 'price-fixing' action was in response to Amazon's bully boy tactics. the DoJ should be looking at Amazon.


I wonder is they will...

To me Job's seen the potential negative element of Amazon's approach, for him, but also for the industry incl writers and readers.
 

Mr Flibble

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I think I'm starting to get it....

/muses

If it's Amazon that's the problem, you know what I'd really like to see? (given I always by from the publisher if I can)

The big publishers getting together and making their own ebook portal, so they can set a price that suits them, not be beholden to Amazon.

What, a girl can dream right?
 

Deleted member 42

So publishers put out a print book. They have costs, obviously, editing, overhead, distribution etc etc

If they then decided to put out an ebook (for instance, it was a separate endeavour) what actual extra costs are you incurring? Formatting, sure, but that can't take that much money per book. And you're saving on other things. So, because this confuses me a tad (and I knwo I ain't alone), though I kind of understand it, why is the cost as much or higher?

First:

It really isn't that much cheaper to produce an ebook. The binding/printing costs are depending on the book and the binding and the numbers printed somewhere around 1 to 3 bucks a book, for a Robert Jordan Hardcover with Foil.

The costs up to the point a file is sent to an ebook producer or to a printer are identical--and that's where most of the costs to make a book occur.

Author's advance is often the single largest item in terms of genre fiction. Then you've got designer, cover artist, editor, copy editor, proofer, typesetter--and there may be other costs, depending on the book (indexer, rights licensing, compositor).

The ebook has to be formatted, and done properly, it's not just a matter of running scripts. It needs to be created in multiple formats, usually, with administrative costs related to licensing images, cover art, DRM, and QA. There are additional production costs in terms of staff and software/hardware, and in terms of archiving.

And the initial costs up to the fork are shared.

Honestly, for genre fiction, there's reason to base the price ebooks pretty closely on the prices for the equivalent paperbacks.

Now, what I'm not sure of is how much angst there is from publishers about day-and-date release, and issues of libraries buying hardcover in preference to softcover.

Second, book prices at the point of a real book are of three sorts:

  1. Raw cost in labor/materials/costs to the publisher
  2. Price the publisher sells the book to retailers/distributors/wholesaler (discounts of various sorts)
  3. Price the retailer sells the book to a customer

Keep in mind that frequently the author is paid putative royalties on some version of 3, after the publisher has recouped the advance--at which point the publisher may still be trying to (and probably won't have) recoup their costs and generate profit.

And if they don't profit, they can't pay advances, or make more books.
 
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Deleted member 42

So has anyone noticed that most print books are fairly close in price, regardless of publisher? (Or at least the bigger players. That is, micropresses using POD technology aside.)

How is e-books having similar prices across 'manufacturers' different from print books having similar prices? What am I missing here?

You're not.

The fact of the matter is that publishers do track their costs carefully, with gorgeous amazing mind-bogglingly complex spreadsheets and dedicated databases.

There are standard numbers for all this stuff.

Publishers can predict how many printed pages a book will take, and cost it out. They do that before making an offer of an advance.

Right down to pretty accurate estimates about when books will be ready to send to a printer, or to an ebook production team.

Sure, there's some variance--just like there is with other similar operations--but there's not lot. Publishers are dealing with real costs, and expenses--but don't get paid until the books sell.
 
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