Lay or Laid?

lay (past tense of lie)

Depends on the tense of the scene...

lay...present tense, as in immediate.

laid...past tense, already happened.

Think of this as something the dragon did to itself:

Lie (present tense) I think I'll lie down for a while.
Lay (past tense) I lay in bed all afternoon.
Lain (past participle) I have lain around the house for weeks.

Lay (present tense, requiring an object) Lay your pencils down.
Laid (past tense) I laid my pencil down.

thothguard51 said:

Depends on the tense of the scene...

lay...present tense, as in immediate.

laid...past tense, already happened.

Click to expand...

No. Wrong. You are mixing up two separate verbs, which misfortunately in English happen to have cognate forms.

To lie is the intransitive verb referring to "lying down".

The past tense of this is "lay", as in "The dragon lay down."

To lay is the transitive verb referring to "laying something down". It requires an object.

The past tense of this is "laid", as in "The dragon laid the amulet on the dead body of the zombie."

In the OP example, the second sentence is correct and the first is incorrect. By grammatical definition.

We have a "Definitive lie/lay" sticky thread here somewhere, which is a thorough and very good explanation of these two verb forms.

caw

And, it's a thing of beauty, Maryn. Thank you.

Maryn said:

It may make you weep, it's so lovely.

Click to expand...

You lie.

caw

"To lie" (meaning "to recline or to rest horizontally") is an intransitive verb, meaning that it can't take an object, as in:

Present: Today I lie on the bed.
Past: Yesterday I lay on the bed.
Present Perfect: I have lain on the bed all day.
Present Continuous: I am lying on the bed.

"To lay" (meaning "to place" or "to put"), is a transitive verb, meaning that it can take an object, as in:

Present: Today I lay the book on the table.
Past: Yesterday I laid the book on the table.
Present Perfect: I have laid the book on the table.
Present Continuous: I am laying the book on the table.

tonten said:

Been having troubles with this one. Grammar-check in word keeps telling me I'm wrong. I thought I wasn't, but now I am doubting myself.

Click to expand...

I'm surprised that your only reference work is grammar check. Every writer should have Fowler's Modern English Usage and Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge.

Allyn said:

I'm surprised that your only reference work is grammar check. Every writer should have Fowler's Modern English Usage and Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge.

Click to expand...

But - what if Every Writer isn't writing in British English? Or *gulp* isn't writing in English at all?

But wait - you're teasing, aren't you? Cheeky devil!

Allyn said:

Every writer should have Fowler's Modern English Usage and Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge.

Click to expand...

What pretentious rubbish. There are many other -- and far more useful -- grammar resources than those.

I make a Very Good Living as a professional writer, and I have a lot of knowledge about grammar...knowledge well outdone by others here. I have neither of the books you recommend, and I do just fine. So do many others.

blacbird said:

No. Wrong. You are mixing up two separate verbs, which misfortunately in English happen to have cognate forms.

To lie is the intransitive verb referring to "lying down".

The past tense of this is "lay", as in "The dragon lay down."

To lay is the transitive verb referring to "laying something down". It requires an object.

The past tense of this is "laid", as in "The dragon laid the amulet on the dead body of the zombie."

In the OP example, the second sentence is correct and the first is incorrect. By grammatical definition.

Click to expand...

This.

Allyn said:

I'm surprised that your only reference work is grammar check. Every writer should have Fowler's Modern English Usage and Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge.

Click to expand...

I do believe every writer should read these two books. Both are classics, and no education is complete without such reading. But a more recent guide or three is also necessary, unless you want everything you write to sound dated.

Terie said:

What pretentious rubbish. There are many other -- and far more useful -- grammar resources than those.

I make a Very Good Living as a professional writer, and I have a lot of knowledge about grammar...knowledge well outdone by others here. I have neither of the books you recommend, and I do just fine. So do many others.

Click to expand...

Because you have neither does not make the suggestion that writers should read these pretentious. There are books every writer should read, and passing up these two is pretty silly, at best.

Jamesaritchie said:

There are books every writer should read, and passing up these two is pretty silly, at best.

Click to expand...

No. It really isn't silly. If one wishes to read them, that's fine.

But suggesting that every writer -- or even just every writer in the English language -- needs to read them is what's silly.

Jamesaritchie said:

no education is complete without such reading.

Click to expand...

That's a nice bit of hyperbole there, James.

tonten said:

The biggest dragon she had ever seen in her life laid inside the cave.

Click to expand...

The dragon produced eggs.

The biggest dragon she had ever seen in her life lay inside the cave.

Click to expand...

The dragon was in a horizontal postion.

Terie said:

What pretentious rubbish. There are many other -- and far more useful -- grammar resources than those.

I make a Very Good Living as a professional writer, and I have a lot of knowledge about grammar...knowledge well outdone by others here. I have neither of the books you recommend, and I do just fine. So do many others.

Click to expand...

Name them, the other resources. If you're willing to make a passing reference to them, the least you can do is share them with us all. And how do you know what resources other writers have? Have you asked them? Quite honestly, I think you are FOS, but you may prove me wrong. I have read some of your stuff and my first impression is that you use far to many commas. Oscar Wilde knew a thing or two about commas. He spent a morning putting one in and the afternoon taking it back out. Your work seems to be littered with them.

I didn't say there are no other good books or resources on grammar, but I bet most of them make some reference to these two.

Fowler and Partridge are not pretentious. They may be a bit dated, but that in no way detracts from their overall value. And neither would have capitalised (English spelling) "very good living" - that is pretentious.

Another resource I refer to from time to time is "Where to put the F in comma" at http://poemfactotum.com/comma.html .

See also "Eats, Shoots & Leaves".

Allyn said:

Name them, the other resources. If you're willing to make a passing reference to them, the least you can do is share them with us all. And how do you know what resources other writers have? Have you asked them? Quite honestly, I think you are FOS, but you may prove me wrong. I have read some of your stuff and my first impression is that you use far to many commas. Oscar Wilde knew a thing or two about commas. He spent a morning putting one in and the afternoon taking it back out. Your work seems to be littered with them.

Click to expand...

Allyn you're going to sit down and shut up.

Because you've been increasingly rude, and idiotic, and an arrogant asshat throughout your post history.

And I'm pretty sure I recognize your particular brand of horse shit.

Fowler, by the way, like Patridge, is writing about usage, and not grammar, and British usage at that. Moreover, only the second edition of Fowler is held in high regard by anyone who knows anything—and you don't.

The fact that you admire Eats Shoots and Leaves kinda says it all.

Get the hell off my server.

Signed,

Dr. Spangenberg

tonten said:

The biggest dragon she had ever seen in her life laid inside the cave.

Click to expand...

Dawnstorm nailed it nicely above.

If I were reading this, I would immediately think of someone watching a dragon lay eggs.

Allyn said:

Fowler and Partridge are not pretentious.

Click to expand...

The Shorter OED defines 'pretentious' as 'making excessive or unwarranted claim to importance'.

Pontification about what all writers should have, especially when, by one's own admission, one has oneself written nothing more than a few notes and beginnings; can so easily be deemed to fall under that definition that I would have to doubt its intended application to Fowler or Partridge as such.

That of course is my own interpretation of what Terie wrote and not necessarily Terie's intent.

Let us return to our regularly schedule discussion.

I note that in prayer one may lay oneself, but generally it's better to get laid.

For the language geek, the equivalents of the verb "to lie" are generally in a special group of verbs in I.E. languages that behave differently than other verbs, in that they use a different helping verb for past tense forms, or that they are frequently used reflexively, as in "now I lay me down to sleep." It's one of the early markers that made scholars in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries start thinking about the idea of an I.E. family of languages.



(I strive for an elevated tone in all grammar discussions).

Allyn said:

Name them, the other resources. If you're willing to make a passing reference to them, the least you can do is share them with us all.

Click to expand...

Despite Allyn's departure, I shall provide a list of my reference books anyway.

Oxford Concise English Dictionary, Tenth Edition
Oxford Guide to English Usage
Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar
Oxford Essential Guide to the English Language
Oxford Companion to the English Language (Abridged Edition)
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition
Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage
Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories
Merriam-Webster Concise Handbook for Writers
Chicago Manual of Style
Gregg Reference Manual
The Elements of Style by Strunk and White
The Elements of Editing by Arthur Plotnik
The Elements of Grammar by Margaret Shertzer
Good Style by John Kirkman

Also, approximately 30 tomes on technical communication, of which the following is a random sample:

International Technical Communication by Nancy L Hoft
Technical Writing by John Lannon
Standards for Online Communication by JoAnn T Hackos and Dawn M Stevens
The Professional Writer, A Guide for Advanced Technical Writing by Gerald J Alred, Walter E Oliu, and Charles T. Brusaw
Technical Communication by Rebecca E. Burnett
Technical Editing by Carolyn D. Rude and Angela Eaton

Medievalist said:

Let us return to our regularly schedule discussion.

Click to expand...

And in doing so, un-derail this marvellous thread.

I note that in prayer one may lay oneself, but generally it's better to get laid.

Click to expand...

Given that "to get laid" has a passive construction but generally refers to active participation in sexual congress, would it be too much of a stretch to think that it's sort of almost a bit like a deponent verb?

For the language geek, the equivalents of the verb "to lie" are generally in a special group of verbs in I.E. languages that behave differently than other verbs, in that they use a different helping verb for past tense forms, or that they are frequently used reflexively, as in "now I lay me down to sleep." It's one of the early markers that made scholars in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries start thinking about the idea of an I.E. family of languages.

Click to expand...

I'll bet there's an interesting name for this special group of verbs.