Can great writing really exist without Eric Cartman?

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Paul

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yes, post a South Park episode. By my goodness, what a fab, fab character. The teachers ask him to prevent a child's (say Johnny's) suicide, so he orchestrates a different child's suicide.

In answer to his critics he states

"It's what you wanted isn't it? Now Mary will kill herself - but Johnny will live." (I'm paraphrasing)


wow. and it got me thinking...
 

Paul

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Badies. can there be great writing without them? just watching King of Queens - again Arthur fab character (diff genre of course)
 

muravyets

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Are you asking if there can be great writing - or rather, storytelling? -- without villains? I'd say no, if only because I don't think there ever has been a story worth repeating that did not have a pretty compelling, intriquing, and/or entertaining villain.* Conflict = story.


* I would apply this also to stories in which the villain or antagonistic force turns out to be illusory or the same person as the hero.
 

Paul

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agreed. maybe certain works of reflection (Ulysses) but even they have the MC with internal Cartmanism (what? that's a word)
 

Maryn

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We saw "The Book of Mormon" last weekend--just brilliant. No surprise.

Maryn, whose only regret was not a single cute guy in the cast
 

buz

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The truth lies in THE TALE OF SCROTIE MCBOOGERBALLS.
*throws up*

Don't forget THE POOP THAT TOOK A PEE, narrated by Morgan Freeman.

"Why are we here?" Douglas cried, as poop came out of his wiener in a long, thin strip.

(Best literary novel ever quasi-made)

In seriousness, um...what was the question?

Right, the villains. It depends on the story. Sometimes the villains are sort of throwaway nothings, just something for the MC to strive against, so...they're there, as a plot device, which is fine, but not brilliant. You could replace Voldemort with an evil big red dog who wants to eat everyone, basically. (I mean, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.) Harry Potter could go toe to toe with a different villain or evil force--he just needs an evil force.

Cartman is the most brilliant f****** villain I've ever come across. Ever. In any medium. He's not replaceable; South Park would not be what it is without him; he's not just an evil force (though that is certainly part of it). If Harry Potter went up against some wizard version of Eric Cartman, it would have been an entirely different storyline...

A much more twisted storyline...

As to which is "greater", I'm gonna say...it sort of depends on what you set out to write. And how you write it. :D In other words, I'm a dumbcrap and I dunno.
 

Paul

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*throws up*

Don't forget THE POOP THAT TOOK A PEE, narrated by Morgan Freeman.

"Why are we here?" Douglas cried, as poop came out of his wiener in a long, thin strip.

(Best literary novel ever quasi-made)

In seriousness, um...what was the question?

Right, the villains. It depends on the story. Sometimes the villains are sort of throwaway nothings, just something for the MC to strive against, so...they're there, as a plot device, which is fine, but not brilliant. You could replace Voldemort with an evil big red dog who wants to eat everyone, basically. (I mean, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get my point.) Harry Potter could go toe to toe with a different villain or evil force--he just needs an evil force.

Cartman is the most brilliant f****** villain I've ever come across. Ever. In any medium. He's not replaceable; South Park would not be what it is without him; he's not just an evil force (though that is certainly part of it). If Harry Potter went up against some wizard version of Eric Cartman, it would have been an entirely different storyline...

A much more twisted storyline...


As to which is "greater", I'm gonna say...it sort of depends on what you set out to write. And how you write it. :D In other words, I'm a dumbcrap and I dunno.
i think you answered your own question. And mine :)
 

artemis31386

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Cartman is an a**hole but he's my favorite character on that show. He's a cleverly written villain type because he truly believes in whatever he is doing. He always believes that he is doing the right thing and his interactions with other characters (which are usually humorous) reflect this.
 

blacbird

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The OP was a pretty strange and obfuscating way to ask what should be a straightforward question.

I'd recommend more straightforward questions from here on.

So, with that in mind, I'll translate what I understand to have been meant: Can great writing exist without an antagonist?

If, by this, you mean a human or quasi-human villain, I'd say, yes it can. Many great novels have been erected on the premise that the protagonist contains within all the conflict necessary to make a great story:

Crime and Punishment, Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Nostromo, Joseph Conrad
Ethan Frome, Edith Wharton
Native Son, Richard Wright
An American Tragedy, Theodore Dreiser
For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemingway
. . .

caw
 

Paul

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agreed. maybe certain works of reflection (Ulysses) but even they have the MC with internal Cartmanism (what? that's a word)

If, by this, you mean a human or quasi-human villain, I'd say, yes it can. Many great novels have been erected on the premise that the protagonist contains within all the conflict necessary to make a great story:

Crime and Punishment, Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Nostromo, Joseph Conrad
Ethan Frome, Edith Wharton
Native Son, Richard Wright
An American Tragedy, Theodore Dreiser
For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemingway
. . .

caw
the term is 'internal Cartmanism'. dude.




ok, i'll behave from now on. (promise)
 

tmesis

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Ah, but could The Coon truly exist without Mysterion, or Professor Chaos, or Mintberry Crunch?
 

Question

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I agree that King of Queens is good.

But we could all have done without King of the Hill...
 
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