Is there a possibility that relatives could be upset by this?

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 25, 2012

Say there's a character based on a recently dead historical figure with different circumstances to the real person, but has the same name and personality and some shared traits.
The character's circumstances are so different that anyone who knew the real person or has basic knowledge of them and their background knows that isn't intended to be a fictional portrayal of the person as they were in real life. Is there still a chance that people who knew that person are going to be upset, even though the character isn't really the person?

HoneyBadger · Feb 25, 2012

Will people other than those of us who thought you were gonna take a break be upset?

Maybe.

ETA: Okay, maybe a little harsh, but, seriously. You've made like 3 threads asking the same question. You can't keep rephrasing "Can I write this book about Evita?" and expect for someone to tell you it's a fabulous idea. Write the book, then worry about it. Write it. Now.

escritora · Feb 25, 2012

At 8:05 today you revived an old thread to ask this question. At 8:50 or so, you bumped that thread: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201235

Then you started this thread.

BenPanced · Feb 25, 2012

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7035128&postcount=5

You're not going to get the answer you want because you keep asking the same question in a different way. People aren't going to change their answers because the question has been asked differently. You don't like the answers that have been given so you ask the question again differently. People are going to give the same answers, no matter what. Move on.

suki · Feb 25, 2012

And even if your question was about a different famous person, the answer would be yes. If the relatives of a deceased person think you have based your character on their deceased relative, they might get upset, yes.

~suki

amergina · Feb 25, 2012

Is there the possibility?

Sure. That's a risk you take when using recent historical figures.

But if you're changing a historical figure so much that their portrayal isn't even intended to be a fictionalized version of their actual life... then why call them the same name?

angeluscado · Feb 25, 2012

There is a possibility that any book will upset a set group of people - if you're basing a character off of a deceased famous person, there's a possibility that their relatives might get upset.

I'm going to give you the same advice people seem to be giving you right, left and center. Write your damn book. Just sit down, put your head down and write your damn book. Worry about pissing people off later.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 25, 2012

amergina said:
Is there the possibility?

Sure. That's a risk you take when using recent historical figures.

But if you're changing a historical figure so much that their portrayal isn't even intended to be a fictionalized version of their actual life... then why call them the same name?

Because the character is based on this person, but in a different (although similar) context. It's like (using a different less-recent example here) creating a fictional Haitian first lady and calling her Marie Antoinette and her husband, the President, Louis, and giving them the personalities of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Everyone knows that Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were French royals, not Haitian president and first lady. No-one would think Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were actually Haitian or that this hypothetical premise is a real account of the historical Louis or Marie Antoinette.

Similarly, no-one with knowledge of the basic facts would think Che, with the same personality as Guevara, was actually one-quarter Jamaican or a servant. Or Honduran or had a club foot. They would also not think that Evita and Che knew each other. Maybe the Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI example above is different though, because more people know at least some basic facts about the last French royals than about Che.

ETA: Sorry for tone.

Lillie · Feb 25, 2012

Lots of people think Che and Evita knew each other, because of the musical.

If you had a story where they knew each other, isn't that taking the characters created by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and using them like fan fiction?

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 25, 2012

Lillie said:
Lots of people think Che and Evita knew each other, because of the musical.

If you had a story where they knew each other, isn't that taking the characters created by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and using them like fan fiction?

Not necessarily. For example, my Eva character has children. No-one would think she really had children, because she didn't. Or making up a president and first lady of Honduras and basing them on the Perons. Everyone knows the Perons and Che weren't Honduran.

amergina · Feb 25, 2012

Morwen Edhelwen said:
Because the character is based on this person, but in a different (although similar) context. It's like creating a fictional Haitian first lady and calling her Marie Antoinette and her husband, the President, Louis, and giving them the personalities of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Everyone knows that Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were French royals, not Haitian president and first lady. No-one would think Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were actually Haitian or that this hypothetical scenario is really about the historical Louis or Marie Antoinette.

While I think the idea of writing Hatian alternate historical fiction with characters based on Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette is interesting, I would throw a book that actually called them Louis and Marie Antoinette against a wall, because it would be akin to beating the readers over the head with a giant sign that read "Look at me! Aren't I clever? It's the French Revolution, but in HAITI!"

Which it kind of what it feels like you're doing. It feel like you're saying over and over is "It's EVITA but set in HAITI! With Dieselpunk elements! You can tell because they're Che and Evita!"

It's overkill. I think you should be more subtle.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 25, 2012

amergina said:
While I think the idea of writing Hatian alternate historical fiction with characters based on Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette is interesting, I would throw a book that actually called them Louis and Marie Antoinette against a wall, because it would be akin to beating the readers over the head with a giant sign that read "Look at me! Aren't I clever? It's the French Revolution, but in HAITI!"

Which it kind of what it feels like you're doing. It feel like you're saying over and over is "It's EVITA but set in HAITI! With Dieselpunk elements! You can tell because they're Che and Evita!"

It's overkill. I think you should be more subtle.

Like by calling him Ernesto? And it's in Honduras.

Lillie · Feb 25, 2012

Morwen Edhelwen said:
Not necessarily. For example, my Eva character has children. No-one would think she really had children, because she didn't. Or making up a president and first lady of Honduras and basing them on the Perons. Everyone knows the Perons and Che weren't Honduran.

But the question I'm asking is whether you are putting a spin on real historical characters, or on the fictionalised characters created by Rice/Lloyd Webber.

The fact that you put Che and Eva together makes me think that it's the latter. That makes it Evita fan fiction, rather than an original spin on historical characters.

Drachen Jager · Feb 25, 2012

amergina said:
Is there the possibility?

Sure. That's a risk you take when using recent historical figures.

But if you're changing a historical figure so much that their portrayal isn't even intended to be a fictionalized version of their actual life... then why call them the same name?

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter

Pyekett · Feb 25, 2012

suki said:
And even if your question was about a different famous person, the answer would be yes. If the relatives of a deceased person think you have based your character on their deceased relative, they might get upset, yes.

~suki

Heck, if the relatives of your publisher think you spread cream cheese on untoasted bagels like some sort of roiling Sasquatch, they might get upset.

People get upset for no reason whatsoever sometimes.

Added: The right question isn't whether someone will get upset, but whether you are doing something you shouldn't be doing. That is, is it unkind (without compelling reason)? Unethical? Poor writing form? If the answer is yes to one of these, then it doesn't matter if nobody gets upset.

If somebody is upset, the corollary right question is whether thay have good reason to be upset.

Mind you, even if someone is upset for what I think is no good reason, I still re-evaluate. There is little I care enough about to go around disturbing other people for. But what I do care about, I hold fast to, regardless of upset it causes.

amergina · Feb 25, 2012

Morwen Edhelwen said:
Like by calling him Ernesto? And it's in Honduras.

Because the real Che's name was Ernesto? That's not subtle. That's making it so that the blinking neon sign doesn't blink any more.

Evita in Honduras has the same problem as Evita in Haiti... it's Evita, but set in another place. It's still Evita.

The problem is this:

Though there were real people called Evita and Che who had--in real life--no interaction with each other, there is a musical and a movie that implies they did, and *that* relationship is the one everyone is going to think you're building off of, no matter how many arguments you make and no matter how many ways you turn it to try to make it so it seems that it's not.

You call him Che or Ernesto and call her Evita, and there WILL be readers who will think "Oh, it's Evita in Honduras. I wonder if ALW knows?"

But honestly, there's nothing wrong with writing it with characters named Evita and Che based on Evita and Che if it makes you happy.

And once you get done with it, you might look at it and think "You know, these people really aren't Evita and Che anymore, since I changed their world too much. I'll change their names." Or maybe you won't.

It all comes down to the one thing everyone has been telling you over and over and over...

Sit down and write it. See what you have when you're done. If this is the story that is burning within you to write, then write the damn thing. Don't worry about what any of us say. Just.... write it.

robjvargas · Feb 25, 2012

Ask Salman Rushdie how it works for even non-recent historical figures.

A whole lot of questions, not a whole lot of product. You're lucky there's not an ignore function here.

Amadan · Feb 25, 2012

robjvargas said:
A whole lot of questions, not a whole lot of product. You're lucky there's not an ignore function here.

Actually, there is.

Seriously, Morwen, what is your problem? This isn't the first time you've frenetically created multiple threads asking the same question in different ways trying to convince us that what you've already decided to do is a good idea.Why. Do. You. Care? AW can't give you permission or approval or a book deal. Since you obviously aren't really looking for advice, just validation, you're kind of wasting everyone's time and your own.

jjdebenedictis · Feb 25, 2012

Amadan said:
Since you obviously aren't really looking for advice, just validation, you're kind of wasting everyone's time and your own.

This.

What do you want from us? All these neurotic little questions, yet you never take anyone's advice.

firedrake · Feb 25, 2012

Here's an idea.
Just write the story. Forget about Eva and Che, just write the story.

There has to be a point where you step off the cliff, open a file and write the book all by yourself

No one can validate your work or tell you what they think until you've written it, polished it, polished it some more.

You are exhausting peoples' goodwill... goodwill you may well need when you finish your story, polish it and post in SYW.

Good luck.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 26, 2012

amergina said:
Because the real Che's name was Ernesto? That's not subtle. That's making it so that the blinking neon sign doesn't blink any more.

Evita in Honduras has the same problem as Evita in Haiti... it's Evita, but set in another place. It's still Evita.

The problem is this:

Though there were real people called Evita and Che who had--in real life--no interaction with each other, there is a musical and a movie that implies they did, and *that* relationship is the one everyone is going to think you're building off of, no matter how many arguments you make and no matter how many ways you turn it to try to make it so it seems that it's not.

You call him Che or Ernesto and call her Evita, and there WILL be readers who will think "Oh, it's Evita in Honduras. I wonder if ALW knows?"

But honestly, there's nothing wrong with writing it with characters named Evita and Che based on Evita and Che if it makes you happy.

And once you get done with it, you might look at it and think "You know, these people really aren't Evita and Che anymore, since I changed their world too much. I'll change their names." Or maybe you won't.

It all comes down to the one thing everyone has been telling you over and over and over...

Sit down and write it. See what you have when you're done. If this is the story that is burning within you to write, then write the damn thing. Don't worry about what any of us say. Just.... write it.

Well, that's what I'm going to do.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 26, 2012

Lillie said:
But the question I'm asking is whether you are putting a spin on real historical characters, or on the fictionalised characters created by Rice/Lloyd Webber.

The fact that you put Che and Eva together makes me think that it's the latter. That makes it Evita fan fiction, rather than an original spin on historical characters.

There's no copyright on ideas, only on their expression. If Lloyd Webber could put Eva and Che together, can't I use the same idea? Yes, the idea isn't original, but neither is "What if Hitler won WWII?" or "What if the South won the American Civil War?" And I want advice. I want an answer to that question of "Can I write about Eva and Che knowing each other without making it a spin on ALW's characters?"

Celia Cyanide · Feb 26, 2012

Morwen Edhelwen said:
There's no copyright on ideas, only on their expression. If Lloyd Webber could put Eva and Che together, can't I use the same idea? Yes, the idea isn't original, but neither is "What if Hitler won WWII?" or "What if the South won the American Civil War?" And I do want advice, not validation.

No, you really don't. You keep asking over and over again, "Can I do this?" You seem to want everyone to tell you, yes, you can. But when people tell you why they don't think you should, you respond with, "What? Why not? Why can't I?"

If you want to write the story, then write it. Don't keep asking if you can.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 26, 2012

Celia Cyanide said:
No, you really don't. You keep asking over and over again, "Can I do this?" You seem to want everyone to tell you, yes, you can. But when people tell you why they don't think you should, you respond with, "What? Why not? Why can't I?"

If you want to write the story, then write it. Don't keep asking if you can.

The thing is, I want to use that idea without making it a spin on ALW's characters.
I think it could work, but people will say, "Oh, this sounds familiar- I wonder if Lloyd Webber knows about this." I'd think the same thing, to be honest.
And the thing is, I don't want to be seen as writing fanfiction, but I still want to use the idea. And make it my own if that's possible. And I keep thinking it is- maybe it's just wishful thinking.

Terie · Feb 26, 2012

At the risk of getting myself banned....

JUST SIT DOWN AND WRITE THE GODDAMNED FUCKING BOOK.

Is there a possibility that relatives could be upset by this?

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