Are readers buying your books?

I think this could be a big help. Granted I'm about a couple days into my first book being online but we're all in this together, right?

The problem I see is that this critique circle is going to be done by self-pubbed authors and not the readers who pay to buy the books. I would also mention that in my humble opinion, those who would participate would hold very negative comments back for fear of getting the same.

There is already a ton of review sites readers can find online, and if authors are getting their work to these sites and paying attention, then I am not sure a closed group is going to generate any more success than what the author is already doing. After all, the book is already published and out there, mistakes and all, for the world to see...

Maybe a pre launch site would be better, to work out the bugs and share marketing strategy. Oppps, wait, we already have a ton of those groups too, and some are right her in the AW forums. Imagine that...

But that is just my humble opinion...

It has to be pre-launch. Otherwise, what good is it? Will you publish revision after revision in response to negative comments?

And, we already have it. SYW.

MOD Note:

Since this appears to be a proposed tool by and for self-publishing, (Not a one time event or announcement) it would seem to belong here.

/Williebee

On a "non-mod" note, thothguard51 brings up good points. But for those who want to participate, best of wishes to you.

I do have a personal discomfort that may - or may not -- apply. What you are proposing is feedback on product, which is a good idea. It makes sense to test market a product, pre-release. It makes sense to do market surveys post release of a product, to make the product better. (Although, in this case, this would be a test market of other authors who might or might not have ordinarily been readers of this type or particular product, as Thothguard points out. It might be like putting a vegan, a vegetarian, a steak only eater, a white meat only eater, an omnivore and a carnivore in a room to critique each other's burgers and the accompanying packaging.)

The personal discomfort comes in for me, personally, when it leads to frequent changes to products already on the shelf. Frequent changes in the appearance of the product, at some point, begins to feel dishonest. It begs the question: Where was the line drawn? -- At the colors, the artwork, at the font of the title, the author's name, the title itself, or contents? Is it still the same story or is someone trying to deceive me and get me to buy something else from someone whose work I didn't like the last time? Worse, is it someone trying to deceive me into buying the same story again by manipulating the packaging? That kind of thing can not only hurt a brand or author's name, but can negatively impact reading as a whole.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, maybe I'll just go watch TV.

Just mho.

There's a blog (not part of AW) that does this, run by a successful self-published author: booknotselling.blogspot.com

Griffin Hayes said:

I see what you're saying. I can assure you it isn't even approaching anything unethical to tinker with your blurb, cover image and correct typos in the sample pages even after an ebook is on the market.

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You might not consider it unethical, and it might be common practice in some quarters, but I think it's dodgy to revise a product in this way.

If I bought an earlier version of the book and then found out that because of poor sales the book had subsequently been heavily revised and improved after I'd paid my money out for it, I'd feel cheated. Used, even.

What worries me more is the idea that you'll be trading reviews with each other. As has already been suggested up-thread, there is a good chance that some of the people involved will give only positive reviews, in order to ensure they receive only positive reviews in return. The flipside to that is that people who receive negative reviews might well give negative reviews back, which can lead to all sorts of bickering. I've seen it happen, and it's not nice.

I do think you were well-intentioned in suggesting this, but I'm concerned that there are too many ways that this could go wrong. There have already been too many instances where groups like this HAVE gone wrong for me to feel that it's unlikely to happen in this case, no matter how good your intentions or your own ethics.

It's worth noting that we already have places at AW where these issues can be dealt with: your writing can be critiqued in SYW, and we have a section in self-publishing where cover designs can be discussed. By all means use those rooms to help each other out: but I don't think that a place for Amazon listings to be critiqued is going to work. Sorry.

Old Hack said:

You might not consider it unethical, and it might be common practice in some quarters, but I think it's dodgy to revise a product in this way.

If I bought an earlier version of the book and then found out that because of poor sales the book had subsequently been heavily revised and improved after I'd paid my money out for it, I'd feel cheated. Used, even.

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In a world of director's cuts, "special editions", deluxe album packages, album rereleases with bonus songs, and so on I think maybe the time has come where that would be a minority opinion. (Except among Star Wars fans! )

As far as fixing typos, blurbs, and new covers I think it's an area of near zero resistance. (Amazon allows you to update to the newer version at no additional charge if you want it.)

What worries me more is the idea that you'll be trading reviews with each other. As has already been suggested up-thread, there is a good chance that some of the people involved will give only positive reviews, in order to ensure they receive only positive reviews in return. The flipside to that is that people who receive negative reviews might well give negative reviews back, which can lead to all sorts of bickering. I've seen it happen, and it's not nice.

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It's a horrific, horrific practice. Even rah-rah kindleboards has mostly put a stop to it through peer pressure but it still exists in hiding. I get occasional PMs there asking about review trading (ignore!) and when I check out books by these authors it's easy to see who's trading with who.

I'm not sure there's a need for something formal, and I agree with some of the posters above that you're probably better off getting this feedback prior to publishing so even minimal efforts to encourage that (like not having a "you screwed up X!" feedback-loop after publishing) are probably worth it.

It's common enough practice at kindleboards to post your cover/blurb pre-publishing for feedback if you want it and I see no reason it can't be done here as well (or in the SYW section along with a sample length excerpt if you want it away from the public.)

No need for formalities for this herd of cats.


(PS. I checked out your cover, blurb and a bit of the sample since it's in my wheelhouse. It's all fine. First person present isn't my favorite thing to read, but if nothing in the rest of the sample throws me for a loop I'll be buying a copy to see what happens. You've done your job here. Write next story.)

I really detest buying a product and then finding out it was inferior to my expectation and the product was updated to fix the inferior problems, after I bought it but I am stuck with the inferior version...

This thread seems to be talking about two things: Pre-launch editorial(?) or last-minute/final-chance reviews/feedback, and post-launch review "trading."

The pre-launch idea definitely a Good Thing, especially if it's given in private (or worst case, a password-protected forum such as SYW). This lets a few more people each do a pass over the book for typos, plot holes(!) and other inconsistencies, and can only increase the quality of the final product.

The second one, which is what the OP was apparently originally asking about, smells too much like gaming the system. I can easily see pressure to give a good review, else others in the "circle" will be reluctant to give a good, or any, review of the reviewer. It's just (a bad aspect of) human nature.

Williebee said:

...
The personal discomfort comes in for me, personally, when it leads to frequent changes to products already on the shelf. Frequent changes in the appearance of the product, at some point, begins to feel dishonest. It begs the question: Where was the line drawn? -- At the colors, the artwork, at the font of the title, the author's name, the title itself, or contents? Is it still the same story or is someone trying to deceive me and get me to buy something else from someone whose work I didn't like the last time? Worse, is it someone trying to deceive me into buying the same story again by manipulating the packaging? That kind of thing can not only hurt a brand or author's name, but can negatively impact reading as a whole.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, maybe I'll just go watch TV.

Just mho.

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There's a lot there, and it applies to print books as well (though of course these aren't really changable between print runs). Definitely when the content gets changed, that's a Bad Thing. I've heard of at least one first-edition nonfiction book with a somewhat outlandish statement that was quietly dropped in later printings.

As for other things, books do have covers changed when they go out of print and are then reprinted and/or bought up by another publisher. I once bought two copies of a book in a used bookstore because I liked something else the author had written, but the covers were so different I assumed they were different books and didn't even notice they had the same title until I got home. That stuff happens, but I agree that if at all possible things shouldn't suddenly change shortly after an ebook is published. If a cover is found offensive or is found to violate a copyright or trademark, those would be "good reason" to change it but one should do due diligence to see that those things are checked for BEFORE releasing the book.

As for doing something in hopes of promotion (which seems do be what the OP had in mind with a review circle), I'd think blog tours would be a much better idea, both pre-release and post-release. Even there, it could look bad if the only blogs you tour on are of four other authors, each of which has toured their book on the other four blogs.

benbradley said:

The second one, which is what the OP was apparently originally asking about, smells too much like gaming the system. I can easily see pressure to give a good review, else others in the "circle" will be reluctant to give a good, or any, review of the reviewer.

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I think he's clarified that he didn't mean to use the work "review" in the sense of reviewing the book contents but in the sense of "looking over" the book's store presentation (cover, blurb, sample) to see if you think they would be appealing to a reader. The opinions would not be publicly visible to shoppers--they would be shared privately with the author in an effort to learn and improve from feedback.

Griffin Hayes said:

So I was thinking why don't we start an AW review circle for self-published authors in order to critique the various elements of their Amazon pages (not sure if this would work on B&N or Apple, but it might)?

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Griffin, it's already been pointed out to you that you're reinventing the wheel here.

The Three Categories:

Cover art (1-10)
Maybe a word or two on what you think the cover image tells you about the KIND of book you're about to read.

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AW has already set up a whole room for self-published writers to discuss their cover art, which you'll find here.

Book Blurb (1-10)
Is it enticing enough?
This could include any review snippets the author included.

Sample pages (1-10)
Would you read more? If not why?http://www.amazon.com/Malice-ebook/dp/B005QCC122

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We have an established and successful section for critique already, in the Writing Lab (known as Share Your Work or SYW). There's space for every genre there, and many of our members already make good use of it. I'm pretty sure that it's already used to critique back cover copy, but if it isn't I see no reason why you can't ask for help with your blurbs there.

I'm not sure that a single thread can do what you want this one to do, nor am I sure that there's a need for this thread when people are already doing these things elsewhere in AW, with great results. And I don't think your new title for this thread works well--it still doesn't describe what you hope this thread will achieve.

JanDarby said:

There's a blog (not part of AW) that does this, run by a successful self-published author: booknotselling.blogspot.com

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Thanks for posting. This blog is a terrific find. After perusing some of the selections I have to say what's making these books fall down is THE WRITING, THE WRITING, THE WRITING, and nothing but THE WRITING.

Sure some of the covers are a little weak, but mostly the writing is klutzy, lacks flow and vital sensory detail. Very educational. I'm glad you shared it.

Yep, the writing is what lets down most of the self-published books I review (see the link in my signature). Not the cover design, although it's often abysmal; the writing.

I've split the conversation about back cover copy and blurbs out into its own thread, so that this one can continue on-topic if required.