White folks with PoC ancestors and sorting cultural questions

DoomBunny · Feb 12, 2012

I've been helping my dad researching our family tree, and trying to track down one particular branch of my maternal grandfather's side. He was a Mason and so the whole thing was a bit hush hush, but we've discovered that we're descended from a chap who came to Australia from Antigua, and was the son of a freed slave on a sugar plantation there. What's more, the daughter of the guy who immigrated here had a child to an Ethiopian man (may have been the product of rape but given the family's attitude I don't entirely trust that).

I suspect I've found the slave's owner (whose name he took) but not his family so we don't know what his ethnicity is. My mother and I both look a little Mediterranean or Middle-Eastern, but we can't tell for sure. We suspect he's at least part Spanish but family rumour says he was from Jamaica or the West Indies. When I can spare the cash I'll have a DNA test, if only to satisfy my own curiosity.

Now this is mostly old news, but since I found the guy who owned my great-great-great-great grandfather I've been identifying myself less and less as caucasian. When I'm filling out forms and such I find myself ticking the box marked 'Mixed' or 'Other'. I'm thinking about how I can squeeze themes of race into my current WIP. We even discovered my ex has an aboriginal ancestor, making my daughter well and truly mixed.

What led me to post was curiosity. How do those of you who are of mixed or uncertan heritage identify? At what point do you stop thinking of yourself as caucasian, if at all? I've always been proud to think of myself as a mongrel but the more I learn about my heritage the truer that becomes. But seeing as I appear mostly white and have never had to deal with any kind of discrimination (apart from the odd terrorist joke) it doesn't feel like I've earned the right to call myself a person of colour. I want to raise my daughter to be aware of all the aspects of her ancestry, and to identify with all of them, but to do so myself feels a little frivolous and cavalier. Having never suffered the tribulations my ancestors went through, do I have the right to assume their culture and race?

Okay, that last sentence was a bit florid but you get the idea.

missesdash · Feb 12, 2012

The thing is that a good amount of "white" people, when they go back far enough, have some non-white ancestry. From a political standpoint, you benefit from white privilege and have never had to suffer any discrimination based on your tiny percentage of non-white.

I think it's great when people find out more about their ancestry. But I personally wouldn't be able to take someone seriously if they insisted they were a Person of Color because of a great-great-great-great-great grandfather. I don't think that even satisfies the one drop rule. It probably just means you tan more often than you burn

Anyway, no one can stop you from self identifying. But you will be met with a lot of side eye if you have passing privilege and benefit from white privilege, all the while insisting you are a POC. Imagine if a white student applied for a POC scholarship because they had an ancestor, 5 generations back, who was non-white. That would be unfair because they'd spend a lifetime benefiting from white privilege only to go on and take opportunities from those who haven't. But that's why scholarships based on ethnic background generally specify the POC in your family has to be a grand parent or a parent (although some say great grandparents as well).

I don't even know if that tiny bit of ancestry is enough to protect you from accusations of cultural appropriation. I don't know, it feels iffy. If you go back far enough, we're all African. But that doesn't mean we're all POC.

Anyway, just my two cents.

FoamyRules · Feb 12, 2012

I agree with missessdash. Most whites if not all have some African or non white ancestry, hell, we all have African ancestry if we go back far enough. It's okay to teach your daughter about your ancestry, but just because you have non white ancestors doesn't mean you're a POC. Just like if a POC has a white ancestor that wouldn't make him white. But then again, you can self identify however you want, but the world is gonna identify you the way it wants. See what I'm saying?

Me personally? Well I am a PoC despite the fact that my father is Caucasian and from the UK. My mother is mixed with Native American and African American. When I fill out applications I mark choose not to respond for personal reasons but growing up while in school it'll have either black, mixed, or other. So I guess it all depends on how close that PoC in your bloodline is to you. Since my grandmother is Choctaw, I'm able to receive benefits of being a Choctaw (such as free college depending on the institution)

ETA: In other words people still consider me to be black despite the fact one of my parents is white.

thebloodfiend · Feb 12, 2012

Ditto the above. I mean, my great-grandmother is Choctaw but I don't identify as Native American. I'm pretty sure one of my distant relatives is white, but there's no way anyone would believe I'm white. I'd kind of roll my eyes if someone who was clearly white insisted that they were black/Aborigine/whatever. I mean, I appreciate the interest in culture, but it also kind of gives off the Cherokee Princess vibe if you know what I mean.

Of course, I'm pretty terrible at identifying race/culture/etc. Nearly everyone here in New Mexico is white, but they're white Hispanics, which makes everything really confusing.

Morwen Edhelwen · Feb 12, 2012

yeah, if I had a White great-great grandfather, I wouldn't claim I'm White.

Scribe4264 · Feb 13, 2012

Just curious here: When did white get removed as a color? Was it the same time Pluto got canned as a planet?

Just my humble opinion, but until we drop the whole "Person of Color" and "fill-in-the-blank"-American crap we will never be able to move past the racism that exists on both sides of the aisle in the country.

I have a little newsflash for all of you: We are all members of one race - the Human Race - and that holds true no matter what the gender, skin color or any other category you want to throw in.

Ok, rant over. Off my soapbox.

DoomBunny · Feb 13, 2012

All good points, and thanks for being frank. It's pretty much what I was thinking, but in hindsight my title was misleading and presumptuous and I apologise for that. My point is not so much that I think of myself as black, as that I don't think of myself as off-the-shelf white. I'm identifying less as caucasian and more as 'other' because I'd like my family's background to be a part of that identity. I'm certainly not talking about telling the world I'm black because of two drops in the ocean generations ago. I'm just curious about the attitudes of people who are unsure of their cultural or ethnic identity, and how it affects their writing.

On the flip side of the coin, does having only a tiny amount of Ethiopian DNA mean it can't be part of my identity? Do I have to stop listening to Bob Marley? Where's the line, before I can consider any culture, coloured or otherwise, to be a part of who I am? Do I have to call myself a Celt because that's the largest single majority of my genetic makeup? As I said initially, I'm not claiming to have suffered from racism or persecution, I'm just interested in and proud of my confused heritage. For the record I only mentioned my black ancestry because it's the tip of the iceberg. Culturally my family is so confused as to be lacking any entirely. As I said, we're mongrels. The slave angle is just the latest discovery and most interesting to me. I'm not looking to lay claim to a slave heritage or become part of an African expat community.

Scribe4264, while I don't disagree with your sentiment it sounds like you're suggesting that people of different ethnic backgrounds or cultures shouldn't identify themselves as such. I'm not talking about race. I'm talking about culture, social identity, and more importantly the history of my family.

missesdash · Feb 13, 2012

Scribe4264 said:
Just curious here: When did white get removed as a color? Was it the same time Pluto got canned as a planet?

Just my humble opinion, but until we drop the whole "Person of Color" and "fill-in-the-blank"-American crap we will never be able to move past the racism that exists on both sides of the aisle in the country.

I have a little newsflash for all of you: We are all members of one race - the Human Race - and that holds true no matter what the gender, skin color or any other category you want to throw in.

Ok, rant over. Off my soapbox.

Yes! The human race! Hey black kid who is 48 times more likely to get jail time for a first offense possession charge: you are no different from that white kid who, despite having a record identical to yours, is getting away scott free! No, no, woman who is unable to get a mortgage because of an ethnic name, we're all humans.

Maybe those darker humans are disproportionally given the death penalty in Texas, but shhh, we're all the same. Maybe those non-dark humans got a 200 year head start in this race, but hey, I'm not counting.

Exactly the same. Bbl, I have to go embrace my newly acquired white privilege.

O wait...

thebloodfiend · Feb 13, 2012

Scribe4264 said:
Just curious here: When did white get removed as a color? Was it the same time Pluto got canned as a planet?

Just my humble opinion, but until we drop the whole "Person of Color" and "fill-in-the-blank"-American crap we will never be able to move past the racism that exists on both sides of the aisle in the country.

I have a little newsflash for all of you: We are all members of one race - the Human Race - and that holds true no matter what the gender, skin color or any other category you want to throw in.

Ok, rant over. Off my soapbox.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232684

Read the fucking sticky. I'm so fucking tired of the "we're all humans" bit. Yeah, we're all fucking human, but, unfortunately, there's a little thing called white privilege in America. Read up on it. Goodbye.

missesdash · Feb 13, 2012

@Doombunny the vast majority of blacks in the US know less about our ethnic background than you know of yours. Most of us can only trace our families back a fee generations. So it's not really that novel to be "unsure" of your entire ethnic line. Most of us are also mixed with white and native American.

The point wasn't that you aren't black, it's that you aren't a POC. and honestly, I think we can all agree race is a construct. But "white" doesn't mean someone only has white ancestry any more than "black" means a person has no other ancestry.

We're all a little mixed. But it doesn't effect our lives unless it's immediate. I'm not sure why you made the Bob Marley comparison, since 1. He's not Ethiopian and 2. Anyone can listen to Bob Marley/whatever music they want.

And I can't speak for the other posters, but as a biracial person I don't love the term "mongrel."

You sound excited to discover these other parts of your ancestry and that's great. But *most* people are in the same boat as you. It's not confused or mixed, it's really really common. Especially since your race isn't indigenous to the country you live in.

DoomBunny · Feb 13, 2012

First up, I feel terrible about my stupid thread title, it was really thoughtless of me and misleading of my intentions. I'm not a person of colour. If I can change the title I'm open to suggestions.

The Bob Marley point was about culture more than race, seeing as he's kind of the archetypical Rastafarian. I was exaggerating for effect and I wasn't very clear about it. More on that below. My point there was where is the line? At what point does the implication of cultural appropriation end? How much can I make those cultures a part of my life before I'm being the presumptuous Cherokee princess? For example, I'm comfortable thinking of myself as mostly of European and mixed descent and wouldn't identify myself as black. But what's wrong with incorporating that mixed descent into my identity as much as the European? This isn't about what I tell others or how I identify myself socially as what I think of myself. And yes, I know, I can identify myself as whatever I want and it's noone's business but my own, but I'd still like to discuss it as it does sometimes affect other people. And if it's going to be a part of how I raise my daughter then I think I've got a responsibility to be aware of just how it affects those people. I want her to be aware of her family background without being presumptuous or pretentious about it. For my mother's generation our black ancestor was a dirty secret and I don't want that to continue.

This is kind of a silly example, but bear with me. If I could get a Celtic triskele tattoo in honour of that part of my heritage, why would it be less acceptable to get a Lion of Judah in remembrance of my lone Ethiopian ancestor? Can I be proud of his accomplishments without claiming them as my own? Do I have to ignore my ancestors because of their minimal percentage in my overall makeup? I think the man who was born into slavery and came here a free man is as much a part of my family and my history as the cheeky bugger who stole 35 sovereigns from his landlord and was sent here as a convict.

Let me come at this from a different angle. Being writers and reasonably well read, I hope we can all agree that gender identity and sex are not the same thing. I might be born male and identify as female. But no matter how passionately and intently I might identify myself as female, if I was born and raised male I wouldn't have experienced, and wouldn't have any right to lay claim to, all the pain and suffering a woman experiences growing up in a male dominated society. Likewise, I'm not laying claim to all the persecution that people of colour experience. I'm simply saying that, having learned that certain cultures have been a part of my family, however small, I'd like to learn more about them and incorporate them into my identity.

As for the term mongrel, I'm in Australia here and it's not such an issue. It's more of a wry compliment. But if it has other connotations elsewhere they were not my intention, and I won't use the term again. Also, being Australian, most people aren't in the same boat as you suggest. Most people identify as being of some sort of UK or European background, precisely because so damn many of us are so casually racist. My ex identifies as Manx. Some of her family are straight out of Ireland. Most of my friends are either so blue-eyed and blonde as to be pure northern European, or one generation out of south-east Asia. The other kids I grew up with all consider themselves Australian despite only having been here a few generations. Very few Australians openly identify themselves as being of any sort of mixed heritage. In my experience people that identify as Australian are more often than not just identifying as not being anything else. You're right, they're not confused about their heritage - they're just ignoring it like my mother's family did. That's what's common, here where I live (which is a redneck, racist craphole, and maybe that's part of what I'm reacting to).

/edit - I just thought I should mention, to missesdash especially, I can see this is something close to your heart. So if I do say something you don't appreciate, like the term 'mongrel', please let me know.

Captcha · Feb 13, 2012

Your cultural background can't be determined by a DNA test. Your culture is how you were raised, and what you experienced from your friends and family during your lifetime, not what some distant ancestor may or may not have accomplished or experienced.

You can listen to Bob Marley if you like Bob Marley. There is no genetic component to liking reggae. Liking reggae can be part of your culture as a citizen of a diverse and beautiful world. Any aesthetic preferences can be incorporated into your cultural milieu on the same basis. You like it.

You don't like reggae because you have a trace of African blood. You just like it. You're allowed.

If your family ignored their mixed genetic makeup, then I don't think you really have any claim to the cultures of the previous generations. Culture is passed down through human behaviour, not through blood. If you want to claim the blood, okay, go for it. But the culture is gone, from your branch of the family tree. Any attempts to reintroduce it will be artificial, and I really don't see the point.

FoamyRules · Feb 13, 2012

Scribe4264 said:
Just curious here: When did white get removed as a color? Was it the same time Pluto got canned as a planet?

Technically white isn't a color. It never was.

Scribe4264 said:
I have a little newsflash for all of you: We are all members of one race - the Human Race - and that holds true no matter what the gender, skin color or any other category you want to throw in.

Yes, that's true but we are all not the same.

Scribe4264 said:
Ok, rant over. Off my soapbox.

Read the sticky please.

FoamyRules · Feb 13, 2012

@DoonBunny, I think it's great you're researching and learning about your ancestry. You're not only born but also have been brought up within your culture, so you may not be able to assume your great great great great great grandfather's culture especially since he's so distant in your bloodline. My parents are divorced and have been for a long time, when my father would have me for his visits he didn't make it his business to teach me anything about African American culture or American culture for that matter since he's British. He didn't identify with it so he only taught me the side he identified with. With my mother being biracial herself it was pretty easy for her to teach me about both of my Moroccan ancestors as well as my Choctaw ancestors.
You don't have to be a PoC to like Bob Marley. I like Bob Marley, but I also like various J Pop and K Pop bands. I mean my father's grandmother was Filipino, but I'm not classified as being Filipino.
And I'm not a fan of the word mongrel.

Kitty27 · Feb 13, 2012

Scribe4264 said:
Just curious here: When did white get removed as a color? Was it the same time Pluto got canned as a planet?

Just my humble opinion, but until we drop the whole "Person of Color" and "fill-in-the-blank"-American crap we will never be able to move past the racism that exists on both sides of the aisle in the country.

I have a little newsflash for all of you: We are all members of one race - the Human Race - and that holds true no matter what the gender, skin color or any other category you want to throw in.

Ok, rant over. Off my soapbox.

Obviously,you didn't read the sticky.

Respect Your Fellow Writer is also paramount.

We are all human. We know this. But this tired line doesn't even begin to encompass all the issues that people of color face in society and the white privilege that permeates it. Or what we WILL encounter in our chosen/dream career as writers of multicultural characters&themes. Nor does it excuse the prejudice LGBT people encounter in their lives.

Sexism and homophobia are rampant in this society and your entire post smacks of condescension and coming from a position of privilege. Your attempt to "enlighten" us hasn't been well received. At all.

If you cannot or WON"T understand that,I suggest that you avoid the POC forum from now on.

I won't be as nice if you come back with something like this.

Good day.

Alessandra Kelley · Feb 13, 2012

missesdash said:
I can't speak for the other posters, but as a biracial person I don't love the term "mongrel."

Don't mean to intrude here (I'm white, and my family and I have definitely benefited from white privilege), but I agree completely. "Mongrel" is not a friendly term in the US (I got smacked with it once by an Englishman when I told him my grandmother was English).

Kitty27 · Feb 13, 2012

DoomBunny said:
I've been helping my dad researching our family tree, and trying to track down one particular branch of my maternal grandfather's side. He was a Mason and so the whole thing was a bit hush hush, but we've discovered that we're descended from a chap who came to Australia from Antigua, and was the son of a freed slave on a sugar plantation there. What's more, the daughter of the guy who immigrated here had a child to an Ethiopian man (may have been the product of rape but given the family's attitude I don't entirely trust that).

I suspect I've found the slave's owner (whose name he took) but not his family so we don't know what his ethnicity is. My mother and I both look a little Mediterranean or Middle-Eastern, but we can't tell for sure. We suspect he's at least part Spanish but family rumour says he was from Jamaica or the West Indies. When I can spare the cash I'll have a DNA test, if only to satisfy my own curiosity.

Now this is mostly old news, but since I found the guy who owned my great-great-great-great grandfather I've been identifying myself less and less as caucasian. When I'm filling out forms and such I find myself ticking the box marked 'Mixed' or 'Other'. I'm thinking about how I can squeeze themes of race into my current WIP. We even discovered my ex has an aboriginal ancestor, making my daughter well and truly mixed.

What led me to post was curiosity. How do those of you who are of mixed or uncertan heritage identify? At what point do you stop thinking of yourself as caucasian, if at all? I've always been proud to think of myself as a mongrel but the more I learn about my heritage the truer that becomes. But seeing as I appear mostly white and have never had to deal with any kind of discrimination (apart from the odd terrorist joke) it doesn't feel like I've earned the right to call myself a person of colour. I want to raise my daughter to be aware of all the aspects of her ancestry, and to identify with all of them, but to do so myself feels a little frivolous and cavalier. Having never suffered the tribulations my ancestors went through, do I have the right to assume their culture and race?

Okay, that last sentence was a bit florid but you get the idea.

To be honest,this forum wasn't created to hep others identify their ethnic identity or their thoughts about that particular group. Nor are we a sounding board for this kind of thing.

Having a tiny percentage of ancestry doesn't make you POC at all. Just as me having white and Native American ancestry doesn't make me either one.

I am African American. Just as you are white.

Mongrel is a deeply offensive term and I cannot even begin to touch the idea that if you are a teeny bit ethnic,this goes along with liking Bob Marley. Music knows no ethnic background.

Sheila Muirenn · Feb 13, 2012

Great Grandmother definitely Cherokee.

I'm definitely white.

I do consider myself a Cherokee descendant, and would like to know more about the culture, but feels 'fake' to actually claim anything.

kuwisdelu · Feb 13, 2012

When we talk about being "PoC," a lot of it comes down to a community with shared experiences more than pie charts of your blood percentage.

veinglory · Feb 13, 2012

I agree that POC is an experience rather than a literal inheritance. And I think some people have some weird ideas about inheritance. My mom was once indignantly accused of lying for saying her maternal grandmother was Australian Aborigine--just because she didn't inherit the appearance (and non-of us got any of the culture as my grand-dad "passed").

mirandashell · Feb 13, 2012

Just to defend Bunny on the whole 'mongrel' thing.....

It's not an insult where he or she comes from. Or where I come from. So he or she probably didn't realise that it would come across that way.

I think everyone needs to remember that we don't all have the same experience or history. Different cultures find different things insulting. So maybe it would be good for us all to check before we jump on anyone's head for a perceived insult. Obviously point out where the insult is, just don't go straight into attack mode. OK?

MeretSeger · Feb 13, 2012

As a technical aside, if you are looking for haplotyping to confirm Ethiopian ancestry on your maternal grandfather's side, it probably won't work based on what you've said. You won't be able to do that through yDNA, that male line ended with the grandfather, and you won't be able to do it with mtDNA, because that has to be a strictly female line of descent.

male-male-male-male= yDNA
female-female-female-female= mtDNA

Haplotyping has very limited usefulness in individuals.

FoamyRules · Feb 13, 2012

mirandashell said:
Just to defend Bunny on the whole 'mongrel' thing.....

It's not an insult where he or she comes from. Or where I come from. So he or she probably didn't realise that it would come across that way.

I think everyone needs to remember that we don't all have the same experience or history. Different cultures find different things insulting. So maybe it would be good for us all to check before we jump on anyone's head for a perceived insult. Obviously point out where the insult is, just don't go straight into attack mode. OK?

No one went into attack mode, or at least I didn't. We understand he's not from the US and he's stated that. So we informed him that that word is insulting to us. That is all.

AW Admin · Feb 13, 2012

mirandashell said:
Obviously point out where the insult is, just don't go straight into attack mode. OK?

1. There's no need to defend anyone.

2. Pointing that a term is offensive--especially when the forum moderator points it out--is not going into attack mode. Please read the stickies before posting in PoC. They are not meant as decorative flourishes.

3. There will be no attacks of any sort in this forum.

4. These are not the droids you're looking for.

missesdash · Feb 13, 2012

mirandashell said:
Just to defend Bunny on the whole 'mongrel' thing.....

It's not an insult where he or she comes from. Or where I come from. So he or she probably didn't realise that it would come across that way.

I think everyone needs to remember that we don't all have the same experience or history. Different cultures find different things insulting. So maybe it would be good for us all to check before we jump on anyone's head for a perceived insult. Obviously point out where the insult is, just don't go straight into attack mode. OK?

I think more appropriate advice would be to calmly read posts before jumping into "defense mode."

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