real or true?

catian · Feb 11, 2012

which is the correct one?

Legends are real?
or
Legends are true?

It is true what he said.
against
It is real what he said.

would you say real means true?

dpaterso · Feb 11, 2012

This is subtle.

Legends are famous stories that may be based on real characters and events, but who can say for sure whether Achilles really slew Hector? So the legends may not be true. But the legends themselves exist, so they are real.

Real and true would seem to compliment each other but the way you're writing "It is real what he said" sounds slightly odd, as if it's said by a non native English speaker. "It's true what he said" or "What he said is true" or similar variants sound okay. Ditto for "What he said, it is real." (dramatic corny dialogue in a horror story, maybe) although again it has that non native English vibe, to me.

-Derek

Snick · Feb 11, 2012

catian said:
which is the correct one?

Legends are real?
or
Legends are true?

Both are correct, but they mean different things. Legends actually exist, so they are real. Legends may not be factually accurate, so they may not be true.

It is true what he said.
against
It is real what he said.

If what he said is factual, then it is true. One would not usually say "It is real what he said." in English, because if he said it, then it is real. One might say that for emphasis.

would you say real means true?

"real" and "true" are not synonymous. They are involved in the same sort of thing, but "true' is usually related to expressions, speech and writing, while "real" is usually related to existence. There are places where they can be interchanged, but in most uses only one of those words will fit.

lwallace · Feb 11, 2012

Catian - true or real

Snick said:
If what he said is factual, then it is true. One would not usually say "It is real what he said." in English, because if he said it, then it is real. One might say that for emphasis.

Both dpaterso and Snick have definitively nailed the "legend" true vs. real, and the answer concerning "Is it [true/real] what he said?" is about as thorough as one could hope for. "Is it real what he said?" just smacks of informal, slang speech. A character might speak that way, but it wouldn't be said or written in formal English.

blacbird · Feb 11, 2012

No. These words are not synonyms. To me, "real" makes reference to factual reality. "True" is more judgmental. We still pay attention to ancient Greek mythology because the stories carry a lot of "truth". Nobody believes they are "factual reality". There was never a person named Narcissus who fell so in love with his reflection that he starved to death, but the story cautions so vividly and truthfully against self-absorbed egotism that the condition has been given the name "narcissism". There never was a factual boy named Icarus who glued feathers to his wings with wax, and flew so high that the sun melted the wax and he fell to death, but the warning against the danger of overwhelming pride is clear and true.

caw

Chase · Feb 11, 2012

dpaterso said:
This is subtle.

Legends are famous stories that may be based on real characters and events, but who can say for sure whether Achilles really slew Hector? So the legends may not be true. But the legends themselves exist, so they are real.

Real and true would seem to compliment each other but the way you're writing "It is real what he said" sounds slightly odd, as if it's said by a non native English speaker. "It's true what he said" or "What he said is true" or similar variants sound okay. Ditto for "What he said, it is real." (dramatic corny dialogue in a horror story, maybe) although again it has that non native English vibe, to me.

Subtle but super, in my opinion. You can remove "not really that."

Jamesaritchie · Feb 12, 2012

Legends are obviously real, just like airplanes are real, dogs are real, and the moon is real. This does not mean legends are true.

catian · Feb 12, 2012

blacbird said:
No. These words are not synonyms. To me, "real" makes reference to factual reality. "True" is more judgmental. We still pay attention to ancient Greek mythology because the stories carry a lot of "truth". Nobody believes they are "factual reality". There was never a person named Narcissus who fell so in love with his reflection that he starved to death, but the story cautions so vividly and truthfully against self-absorbed egotism that the condition has been given the name "narcissism". There never was a factual boy named Icarus who glued feathers to his wings with wax, and flew so high that the sun melted the wax and he fell to death, but the warning against the danger of overwhelming pride is clear and true.

caw

Thank for such detailed explanation.

catian · Feb 12, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
Legends are obviously real, just like airplanes are real, dogs are real, and the moon is real. This does not mean legends are true.

I see now the difference.
You mean they are real because they are written down and we can all see them and read them.
They are not true because they are just tales and no to be taken literally.
I hope I got this right

catian · Feb 12, 2012

Snick, dpaterso and lwallace thank you for the constructive explanations.
I now understand the difference.

lwallace · Feb 12, 2012

or Vice Versa

Well, you're welcome. Your being real seems true to me. Or is it, your being true seems real?

Kenn · Feb 12, 2012

In one sense, real is to imaginary as true is to false. But real can also mean true or genuine, as in 'the real story of...'.

So, a legend can be either true or false. It can be real or imaginary. It can also be real or false.

QuantumIguana · Feb 13, 2012

You might say "Bigfoot is real," meaning that Bigfoot actually exists. You wouldn't say "Bigfoot is true," only propositions can be true. You could say "It is true that Bigfoot exists," which says that the proposition "Bigfoot exists" is a true proposition.

Similarly, you could say "What he just said is true," which says that the referenced statement is a true proposition.

*I don't actually believe Bigfoot exists...

Jamesaritchie · Feb 14, 2012

catian said:
I see now the difference.
You mean they are real because they are written down and we can all see them and read them.
They are not true because they are just tales and no to be taken literally.
I hope I got this right

Yes, but remember that a great many legends contain a very large grain of truth. They may even be completely true, but are legends because there is no evidence to be sure.

But even with the wildest myth or legend, a grain of truth is usually present.

A fable, on the other hand, is most often a fabricated tale wherein the events never happened, but represent a solid truth that comes out in the moral.

bonitakale · Feb 14, 2012

We're getting into the difference between "true" and "containing truth." A story can be completely fabricated and contain deep, important (or, I guess, shallow, unimportant) truths, nonetheless.

But when you say, "Is it true?" you mean, "Is it factual?"

randi.lee · Feb 14, 2012

dpaterso said:
Legends are famous stories that may be based on real characters and events, but who can say for sure whether Achilles really slew Hector? So the legends may not be true. But the legends themselves exist, so they are real.

-Derek

x2. I agree with this %100.

Kenn · Feb 15, 2012

bonitakale said:
We're getting into the difference between "true" and "containing truth." A story can be completely fabricated and contain deep, important (or, I guess, shallow, unimportant) truths, nonetheless.

But when you say, "Is it true?" you mean, "Is it factual?"

I think it's worse than that. I think it's getting into the realms of what's meant by 'true'.

As QuantumIguana said, only propositions can be true or false. But a legend is a series of propositions (premises) that form a grander proposition. The question of whether the grander proposition is true or false depends on how you regard the premises. That's been enough to keep an army of philosophers employed almost since time began. The two main branches of theory are coherence (whether it fits in) and correspondence (whether it is factual). So, an overall legend can be deemed true by some even if it contains factual inaccuracies. Since legends are mostly based on hearsay, then a judgement has to be made on whether the premises are true. Hence, legends are either believed or disbelieved. This belief is in fact a psychological state of mind that the overall proposition (legend) is either true or false.

Snick · Feb 15, 2012

bonitakale said:
We're getting into the difference between "true" and "containing truth." A story can be completely fabricated and contain deep, important (or, I guess, shallow, unimportant) truths, nonetheless.

But when you say, "Is it true?" you mean, "Is it factual?"

It reminds me of the time when I tried writing the difference between fiction and non-fiction. I finally got down to it being an opinion of the author.

bonitakale · Feb 16, 2012

Kenn said:
I think it's worse than that. I think it's getting into the realms of what's meant by 'true'.

As QuantumIguana said, only propositions can be true or false. But a legend is a series of propositions (premises) that form a grander proposition. The question of whether the grander proposition is true or false depends on how you regard the premises. That's been enough to keep an army of philosophers employed almost since time began. The two main branches of theory are coherence (whether it fits in) and correspondence (whether it is factual). So, an overall legend can be deemed true by some even if it contains factual inaccuracies. Since legends are mostly based on hearsay, then a judgement has to be made on whether the premises are true. Hence, legends are either believed or disbelieved. This belief is in fact a psychological state of mind that the overall proposition (legend) is either true or false.

Yes, but in general speech, don't people mean, "Is it factual"?

Is it true that Benjamin Franklin flew a kite with a key on it? Yes. Is it true that young George Washington chopped down a cherry tree? No.

Kenn · Feb 16, 2012

bonitakale said:
Yes, but in general speech, don't people mean, "Is it factual"?

Is it true that Benjamin Franklin flew a kite with a key on it? Yes. Is it true that young George Washington chopped down a cherry tree? No.

These are simple propositions that either happened or they didn't. A more common question might be something like: 'Is the story of George Washington's honesty true?'
To answer that, you'd have to consider more just the cherry tree he didn't chop down (I though he really had - you've disillusioned me

). So you'd have to judge a number of statements (stories) about him. In the end you reach a conclusion. What that conclusion is will depend on the emphasis you place on the individual elements. Likewise with legends.

Think about it enough and you'll probably end up going mad!

bonitakale · Feb 17, 2012

Well, I'm not thinking about Truth, but about the general use of the word "true," but I can't resist pointing out that the cherry tree story wasn't written to show George's honesty, but to show how to be a good father. "You, too, can rear a son like George Washington!"

Hmm, wonder what his father was really like?

Kenn · Feb 17, 2012

bonitakale said:
Well, I'm not thinking about Truth, but about the general use of the word "true," but I can't resist pointing out that the cherry tree story wasn't written to show George's honesty, but to show how to be a good father...

And I can't resist asking: 'Is that true?'

catian · Feb 17, 2012

bonitakale said:
We're getting into the difference between "true" and "containing truth." A story can be completely fabricated and contain deep, important (or, I guess, shallow, unimportant) truths, nonetheless.

But when you say, "Is it true?" you mean, "Is it factual?"

Yes factual/something that happened.

Snick · Feb 17, 2012

Then there's is "true" meaning "straight", as in: Is the arrow true?

Bufty · Feb 17, 2012

I think of 'true' in an archery context as referring to the accuracy of the flight of an arrow towards its target as opposed to meaning the arrow itself is straight.

Snick said:
Then there's is "true" meaning "straight", as in: Is the arrow true?

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