Have I effectively ruined any chance of getting this published?

How long ago did you submit? If you've significantly changed the query and the novel (I'm not sure what you mean by "layout, not plot", and it's been more than a couple of months, it's not likely anyone will remember it.

I'm sorry, you began submitting on the 16th of January 2012, but you've had time to get a reject AND make some changes?

You can't rush these things. Whenever you make some big changes (especially plot structural ones) you need to put it in a drawer and come back to it with fresh eyes. Otherwise, you run the risk of things like continuity errors.

Slow down. Don't change things because ONE person said to - only do it if you think it's the best thing for your novel.

FWIW, the personal reject you had sounds more like they liked the idea but just didn't like the book. It could have been for a million reasons - didn't like the characters, the voice, how the plot was developed...
I don't think you're going to be able to requery them (but that's going on what you've said). In any case, interpreting rejections is a bad idea unless there is something VERY specific (eg, Character A was unsympathetic and I felt their motivation was lacking).

I'd suggest not sending out any more Qs until you've had the squirrels look your Q over, and maybe post your opening in SYW for feedback.

In some occasions, where a lot of time has passed, and major details have changed, it's considered okay to resubmit.

This isn't the case for your work, it's far too soon to consider resubmitting. I'd say try different agents, but take it slow this time.

General rule of thumb is to never re-query an agent unless a minimum of six months has passed and the novel has gone through at least one major rewrite. It's probably better to wait a year.

There are literally hundreds of agents out there who can successfully rep your work. If your work is good enough it doesn't matter so much who reps you and you can always switch agents later in your career if you find success. Do not fixate on any one agent or even a small group of agents. Find someone who has recent sales to major publishers, as a first time author you don't get to be picky unless your work is truly outstanding or you're a mega-celebrity.

one thing isn't clear to me

How many agents read your novel? You said you "contacted your agents." Did they ask for a full or partial?

My opinion is that if they rejected it because of a poor query letter and never saw the novel, you could resubmit after a reasonable time.

Not everyone agrees with this. But that's what I'm going to do. It just seems reasonable that if you were rejected because of a query and maybe an opening chapter, and you've totally rewritten both, then it would be fair to re-query 6 months later. A lot of this is your judgment call - do you have confidence in your novel?

I think you're in my situation. Queries that suck, and a 1st chapter that floundered. But I believe in the basic strength of the novel.

On the other hand, if the agent rejected you after reading a significant portion of your novel, I'd say a re-write isn't going to cut it.

I'd say if you've changed that much it's worth resending after several months, but a couple of random thoughts:

A) It's easy to have an agent we think is going to be the most awesome bestest person ever in the world, but keep in mind that you've never met this person. Your work may not be quite what they like, maybe your styles are different, or you could even just have a clash of personalities. Don't pin your hopes on one dream agent because you might find that the best agent for you is someone several people down on the list who really gets your work and your goals.

B) I'd actually hold off on querying for a long while and get some more beta feedback, etc. Has anyone other than friends or family read the book? Have you posted samples for critique? It's hard to get objective feedback, but we have great sources for that here.

The reason I mention it is because you've said you weren't aware of what made a good query letter, etc., and honestly the thing that will screw you more than a bad query letter is having a work that just isn't quite up to par. The most important thing is to first make sure every kink has been worked out to the best of your ability, and the fact that you're already making changes implies that you might not think your work is quite where it needs to be.

Honestly I'm not certain the "didn't get into it" isn't a form rejection. I've had similar, and you really can't read anything to that. Unless a person gave you specific feedback (ie, the story starts too slow, the pacing needs work) it's hard to tell what needs to be changed from a form letter.

Also, your first five pages need to be awesome. I'd post them here and get some feedback before doing anything else. You should always include them even if they're not requested because having good sample pages can push an "I'm not sure" into a request.

If you've spent this long writing the book, I think waiting a few more months to get feedback and be certain everything is shiny is worth it.

yup

Read a ton of how-to-write books. Write novel in 6 months. Think it's done. Let it sit, find a few betas. Get rave reviews by amateur reviewers. Rewrite for 6 months. Think it's better. Actively seek out some great, hard-core betas. Rewrite for 6 months with what you learned. Spent 6 months on queries. Submit opening chapters here. Rewrite. Submit again. Rewrite. Completely tear up opening sequence based on a single brilliant comment. Finished? Who knows.

If there's one thing I've learned from the query process, it's that agents don't pay that much attention. Your top choice agents probably won't remember your name, much less your query letter. If you think your query is much stronger now, then go for it.

Also, I'm sure you know this, but ... sometimes agents aren't looking for new clients, so they reject everyone. Your top choice agents might fall into this category. Look for newer agents, on sites like Inkwell and here and stuff.

If an agent has already read your partial manuscript, then yeah, they might remember seeing it ... unless you made significant changes. Then it might be like a new novel, to them.

Don't stress about getting crossed off anyone's list. I really don't think it works that way, unless you personally offend someone.

AbbyBabble said:

If there's one thing I've learned from the query process, it's that agents don't pay that much attention. Your top choice agents probably won't remember your name, much less your query letter. If you think your query is much stronger now, then go for it.

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After a year, some will have forgotten (though some won't, and will reject it on that basis). And some of those who haven't forgotten may believe it's a major rewrite. After a month or less, which is the case here, the idea that they won't remember is wishful thinking. They're going to assume the book has minor changes only.

What you did right: changing to the bucket of cold water in the face opening. That worked for me back in the day. You want an opening that will hold the attention of an eyesore, brain dead slush pile reader for 20 pages and cause her to almost miss her subway stop.

You are improving the query, though in my experience, people tend to read the query *after* they glance at your first page. They're doing what readers do when browsing in a bookstore, a look at the back cover copy, which may have nothing to do with the story, then see what the opening is like.

What to do next: workshop those first pages here on AW and see if you can get a beta reader to look at the whole thing. There's maybe 7 thousand members here, no need to go it alone!

So you may want to go over it again. Getting feedback takes a lot of guts, but you'll be hearing from other writers as well as readers. Most of us are too close to our work to see the flaws. You're not after praise, you want to know what's wrong so you can FIX things!

Rejections have a thousand reasons, but you'll find the main ones about a third of the way down this page, as set out by one of the main editors at Tor.

People do not always read books in their comfy chair with a cat dozing in their lap, soft music playing, and a lovely cup of tea at hand. They are in grocery lines, waiting for the kids to come out of school, in hospital waiting rooms, are themselves in hospitals and trying to escape pain, waiting to get called for jury duty, scrunched in the back of a car on a road trip, eating their lunch, standing on buses and trains next to smelly people and possible muggers.

Write a book that will distract them from that crap and you'll make a sale.

I wholly agree with the "dream" agent. It's like looking for a spouse, the one you want may not be the right one for what you need, and in fact may be completely wrong.

I tried that route, calling a writer to see who her agent was based on the fact that the agent had landed her a 6-figure deal.

Well, the agent didn't have time for me, but I got passed to a young, hungry assistant who was eager to kick ass and take names, and SHE scored some good deals for me and continues to do so.

At the time I didn't understand that the large advance had to do with the author's previous sales, not with the agent's sales pitch.

I didn't get the agent I wanted, but I got the one I needed.

Good luck!

Kate, in all honesty, your original query was so bad that I don't think you need to worry about resubmitting to the agents to whom you've already submitted. Your improved query is going to be much much better and isn't going to sound at all familiar to them.

AbbyBabble said:

If there's one thing I've learned from the query process, it's that agents don't pay that much attention. Your top choice agents probably won't remember your name, much less your query letter.

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... some even have readers or assistants. So the agent you sent to may not have even seen your query.

Waiting six months sounds like a good way to go. For those who've seen sample chpts you might mention that you queried them in the past and have since revised the work. I'd definitely do that for any agent who's read a partial. (It's a bit flattering in a way that you've maintained an interest.)

KateM said:

ROFLMAO.

Not that I don't agree with you but should I be offended by this in some way?

And the query I posted on here (the first one, not after I popped my head out of my butt and figured out what I was supposed to be doing) was better than the one I actually submitted. *ashamed*

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I hope you're not offended; I was being honest because you've already realised the query wasn't very good.

It's actually a case where the badness of the original query is probably going to work in your favour because it was so bland as to be unmemorable. When you get the thing into proper shape, it will bear no resemblance to the original other than your name and the book's title, and those are details the person who read the original query definitely won't remember.

Besides, if one has to suck, isn't it better to suck to a higher degree of suckiness?

Drachen Jager said:

General rule of thumb is to never re-query an agent unless a minimum of six months has passed and the novel has gone through at least one major rewrite. It's probably better to wait a year.

I agree...mostly. I don't think you need to wait six months to re-query if you follow allthe advice above and have obviously spent enough time. Three months is fine too. One would be pushing it.

There are literally hundreds of agents out there who can successfully rep your work. If your work is good enough it doesn't matter so much who reps you and you can always switch agents later in your career if you find success. Do not fixate on any one agent or even a small group of agents. Find someone who has recent sales to major publishers, as a first time author you don't get to be picky unless your work is truly outstanding or you're a mega-celebrity.

Click to expand...

tko said:

My opinion is that if they rejected it because of a poor query letter and never saw the novel, you could resubmit after a reasonable time.

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Just check agency policies on re-submission. If you aren't sure, let them know you're re-submitting after revisions in the beginning of your query. Be honest, professional, and polite. Don't re-submit if they don't allow it.

kaitie said:

A) It's easy to have an agent we think is going to be the most awesome bestest person ever in the world, but keep in mind that you've never met this person. Your work may not be quite what they like, maybe your styles are different, or you could even just have a clash of personalities. Don't pin your hopes on one dream agent because you might find that the best agent for you is someone several people down on the list who really gets your work and your goals.

QFT


B) I'd actually hold off on querying for a long while and get some more beta feedback, etc. Has anyone other than friends or family read the book? Have you posted samples for critique? It's hard to get objective feedback, but we have great sources for that here.

The reason I mention it is because you've said you weren't aware of what made a good query letter, etc., and honestly the thing that will screw you more than a bad query letter is having a work that just isn't quite up to par.

Click to expand...

I agree with others. Right now, you're riding high. The changes you've made sound superficial rather than an extensive revision, and your novel may benefit from a short rest and a solid, critical re-read by you at the least. If you're not querying again until May, you have time to do so. Not everyone does well with SYW or betas, but almost all of us find that we view our work differently when we've been away from it for a month.

I would suggest doing a beta read for someone else (or a few other people) in that interim. It will hone your editorial skills but alter your focus.




Be cautious in thinking that agents won't remember. Many do. This is not to deter you, but to remind you to maintain a professional image in re-querying as you do in all else. If you think an agent sent you a rejection that was personalized, be sure to note that your re-query is due to an extensive revision.

I would only query twice if revisions WERE heavy. A new query is not, IMO, enough reason to do so. My reasoning is that if I failed to get an agent at all with Book A, I would want to have a good reputation to query Book B with.

We like to think that agents are just so busy that they never remember book ideas, queries, names, but they often do just that. Professionalism can pay off, and it costs you nothing to be nice.

... that's interesting, particularly about the data base.
I wonder if that's a common practice?