Strunk and White: 50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice

tmesis · Jan 26, 2012

I've seen The Elements of Style recommended on here more times than I can count. AWers familiar with Language Log will know that love of this little book does not extend to professional linguists; in fact, some have spoken out against its flaws time and time again.

Geoff Pullum, Professor of Linguistics at Edinburgh University, has described The Elements of Style as a 'poisonous little collection of bad grammatical advice', pointing to its tendency for 'ridiculous invented nonsense'. In this article entitled 50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice he outlines some of the grammatical inaccuracies that support his viewpoint. Many other posts on the subject can be found on Language Log here.

It's not my purpose to lay into Strunk or White: I have neither the grammatical expertise nor the inclination to do so. Rather, I'd like to draw attention to alternative grammar and usage guides that professional linguists recommend:

Grammar
Language Log - joyful weblog run by professional linguists.
Internet Grammar of English - a lovely free resource from UCL with quizzes to complement the articles, complete with a glossary.
Longman Student Grammar - a textbook for linguistics/grammar students. Overkill for most laypeople; fantastic if you want to get into the nitty gritty of how language really works.

Style
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage - fair and balanced style guide with accurate, up-to-date examples. The most helpful review on Amazon is from the same Geoff Pullum mentioned above.

Discussion and additions welcome.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 26, 2012

This article keeps popping up, and it was written by a complete fool. "Professional linguists" generally have no business at all in the world of writing. Follow most of their advice, and the only place your writing will see print is in articles written for other professional linguists.

Even if a writer doesn't like Strunk & White, which says more about the "writer" than about the book, there are other, simple, accurate guides around.

But really, calling Strunk and White a "poisonous little collection of bad grammatical advice" is the same thing as calling E.B. White a poor writer who used bad grammar. Let's get this straight. E. B. White was one of the best writers who ever lived. Geoff Pullum couldn't carry White's scratch paper.

You can listen to "professional linguists", or you can listen to one of the best writers who ever lived. And, in fact, you can listen to the thousands of wonderful writers over the decades who have used Strunk & White as The Writer's Bible.

Bufty · Jan 26, 2012

A thread caption often tends to indicate the direction any discussion may take. :Ssh:

I'm not a professional linguist but I don't think The Elements of Style merits the venom I read in some of Language Log.

TE of S has been around for decades prior to the Internet and filled and still fills a much needed gap for many people who want a handy grammar and punctation reference book. It contains a lot of common sense, is not a hard read and for many it's very helpful, readable and affordable.

thothguard51 · Jan 26, 2012

The Elements of Style, is simply a basic primer writing manual, as most of Strunk's students could not even turn in readable term papers...

As to G Pullman, this is old news. He may have valid points from a linguist pov, but who really writes from a linguistic pov?

Besides, Pullman is full of himself and attacking Strunk and White gets his name in the news. When Pullman writes best sellers in fiction, consistently, I will pay him more attention.

tmesis · Jan 26, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
But really, calling Strunk and White a "poisonous little collection of bad grammatical advice" is the same thing as calling E.B. White a poor writer who used bad grammar.

No, it's not. Pullum rates E.B. White's writing and says as much loudly and frequently. His problem is with inaccurate grammar advice in The Elements of Style.

Jamesaritchie said:
You can listen to "professional linguists", or you can listen to one of the best writers who ever lived.

Right. But I'd rather take writing advice from writers, and grammar advice from linguists.

Bufty said:
I'm not a professional linguist but I don't think The Elements of Style merits the venom I read in some of Language Log.

I don't think Pullum does either, really: his overly caustic writing seems quite tongue-in-cheek to me. There's humour beneath his brutality, and some compassion, too. You can see this in his (hilarious) posts on Dan Brown, here.

virtue_summer · Jan 26, 2012

Um, Elements of Style isn't a linguistics book. So why does it matter if a linguist slams it? Also, how would books focused on linguistics and English usage replace a general style guide for writers? Call me crazy, but I'd think all of those books would have different purposes.

tmesis · Jan 26, 2012

virtue_summer said:
Um, Elements of Style isn't a linguistics book. So why does it matter if a linguist slams it? Also, how would books focused on linguistics and English usage replace a general style guide for writers? Call me crazy, but I'd think all of those books would have different purposes.

I don't quite know what you mean by a 'linguistics book'. The Elements of Style is a style guide that comprises usage and grammar advice. Nowadays we have a greater wealth of more accurate information on both.

thothguard51 · Jan 26, 2012

tmesis,

Haven't we had this discussion before on myspace?

tmesis · Jan 26, 2012

thothguard51 said:
tmesis,

Haven't we had this discussion before on myspace?

'Fraid not. You must have me confused for an Imposter Tmesis. Who, being of the same name and opinion as me, is obviously fabulous.

Amadan · Jan 26, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
This article keeps popping up, and it was written by a complete fool. "Professional linguists" generally have no business at all in the world of writing. Follow most of their advice, and the only place your writing will see print is in articles written for other professional linguists.

Wow, that's pretty impressively unknowledgeable and wrong even for you.

I don't know what your beef is with professional linguists - maybe it's that intimidating aura of having the ability to articulate ideas not shot from one's hip, or maybe gangs of Chomskyites beat you up as a child and stole your lunch money - but if you actually read the article (and Pullum's other work) you'd know that he isn't some academic drawing parsed tree diagrams with no knowledge of "real world" language use. The man knows his shit. I think some of his beef with Strunk and White is as much the unquestioning holy imprimatur it's acquired over the years as it is its flaws, but he provides ample evidence to back up his opinions, which is another bit of advice you could benefit from.

virtue_summer · Jan 26, 2012

tmesis said:
I don't quite know what you mean by a 'linguistics book'.

I meant a linguistics book as in a book focused on linguistics which is the study of language, specifically the study of spoken language. Elements of Style has nothing to do with that. It's all about writing.

Amadan · Jan 26, 2012

virtue_summer said:
I meant a linguistics book as in a book focused on linguistics which is the study of language, specifically the study of spoken language. Elements of Style has nothing to do with that. It's all about writing.

Actually, linguistics covers spoken and written language use, and most assuredly includes grammar, punctuation, and style. It's true linguists usually write from a descriptive rather than a prescriptive POV, which is why Pullum doesn't criticize Strunk and White for giving bad style advice but for saying things that are outright, demonstrably untrue.

Torgo · Jan 26, 2012

Not having read S&W for years, I was shocked by several of those 'passive sentences' they'd cited, cited in turn by Pullum. They're not passive at all, if we care about the accuracy of that distinction. There are a lot of moot points in that article, but there's no excuse for that.

tmesis · Jan 26, 2012

virtue_summer said:
I meant a linguistics book as in a book focused on linguistics which is the study of language, specifically the study of spoken language. Elements of Style has nothing to do with that. It's all about writing.

Elements of Style uses (and misuses) the language of linguistics to impart its advice. It talks about clauses, and passivity, and all sorts of grammatical constructions.

KellyAssauer · Jan 26, 2012

tmesis said:
AWers familiar with Language Log will know

Thanks for the warning!

I'll add that to my list of sites to never visit. =)

Hallen · Jan 26, 2012

Pullum is entitled to his opinion. He may be trying to be funny, but if he is, he isn't much of a writer because he comes across as being very mean. He's using hyperbola to up his status as an expert and, at the same time, hock his own books on the subject.

EoS is a style guide not a linguistic or strict grammar guide. It is what it is and it is valuable in its own right.

His article comes up often on writer's forums and always leads to a debate on the subject. I've seen where that debate turns very ugly -- which is sad. But because of Pullum's vehemence, it's also understandable that it becomes polarizing when it really shouldn't.

I share his opinion on Dan Brown's writing. It pretty much sucks. But, he's sold a lot of books because he does tell a pretty good story. Pullum is still being mean in his assessment because his humor is intended to be hurtful, in my opinion.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 26, 2012

I like Geoff Pullum a great deal, but honestly, he's making the same mistake a lot of other writers make.

Elements of Style isn't now nor was it ever intended to be a style guide for writers of anything other than undergraduate humanities essays.

That's it.

It is not a grammar text, the author' did not describe it as such, nor are they to be held responsible for what readers make of their book.

It's a niche book for a niche market—style guides for humanities undergrads. It actually created the market, and was soon followed by John Trimble, Williams' Style, Zinsser's On Writing, and Lanham's Revising Prose.

I've used all of them to teach with, and while Strunk and White is not my favorite, I don't reach Pullum's levels of loathing.

I'd also disagree with his appraisal of Webster's as the dictionary favored by linguists.

It isn't. Pullum's off in his own corner there. The dictionary favored by linguists in the U. S. is The American Heritage Dictionary, so much so that it is the dictionary most linguistics journals in the U.S. ask you to use when submitting.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 26, 2012

Torgo said:
Not having read S&W for years, I was shocked by several of those 'passive sentences' they'd cited, cited in turn by Pullum. They're not passive at all, if we care about the accuracy of that distinction. There are a lot of moot points in that article, but there's no excuse for that.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons we keep having passive voice threads on AW; Strunk and White Get It Wrong.

I do wish that the various editors for hire who have revised the last three or four editions would fix some of the things that are just plain wrong, but they are not allowed to.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 26, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
This article keeps popping up, and it was written by a complete fool. "Professional linguists" generally have no business at all in the world of writing. Follow most of their advice, and the only place your writing will see print is in articles written for other professional linguists.

Dude you really need to check yourself before insertion.

Pullum is fine writer, and his sales for a single book would knock you out of the water.

He's also an excellent teacher.

Chase · Jan 26, 2012

Medievalist said:
Elements of Style isn't now nor was it ever intended to be a style guide for writers of anything other than undergraduate humanities essays.

It is not a grammar text, the authors did not describe it as such, nor are they to be held responsible for what readers make of their book.

It's a niche book for a niche market—style guides for humanities undergrads.

I can't for the life of me figure why the above truth (offered many times) is overlooked in this overworked straw man argument. Lisa is only echoing Strunk, himself.

Maybe, like all straw man bombasts, there's a hidden agenda?

Amadan · Jan 26, 2012

Chase said:
I can't for the life of me figure why the above truth (offered many times) is overlooked in this overworked straw man argument. Lisa is only echoing Strunk, himself.

Maybe, like all straw man bombasts, there's a hidden agenda?

Like I said, I think Pullum is reacting against the way S&W is used. It may have only been intended originally as a helpful guide for undergrads so that college professors wouldn't have to read so many crappy papers by students who couldn't write, period, but it's now used as a general writing style guide. Lots of "How to write" books and companies and publishers list Strunk & White as a "must-read."

Architectus · Jan 27, 2012

The best book on style is Style by Joseph Williams. I don't care who disagrees. I'm right in my own world.

Ken · Jan 27, 2012

... read S&W's Elements, twice. Found it very helpful. Among other things, it's encouraged me to streamline my prose, get to the point, and to avoid redundancy and rhetoric. There are good tips on grammar in the book too. The instruction is also put across in a clear way and is easy to follow. That's a definite plus and by no means a given when it comes to books on writing.

Susan Coffin · Jan 27, 2012

KellyAssauer said:
Thanks for the warning!

I'll add that to my list of sites to never visit. =)

Yep. With Kelly on that.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 27, 2012

Architectus said:
The best book on style is Style by Joseph Williams. I don't care who disagrees. I'm right in my own world.

The interesting thing about this category of books is that all of them deliver essentially the same advice.

The same advice good teachers provide (and model) in humanities undergraduate writing classes.

Strunk and White: 50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice

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Where have the last ten years gone?

A Gentleman of a refined age...

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Always learning

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A Gentleman of a refined age...

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Always learning

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

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The Anti-Magdalene

Mostly annoying

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