How many form rejections do you receive before you...

On both of my manuscripts I queried 40-50 agents between rewrites. If response was lackluster I tried to figure out what was wrong and improved my writing skills, query etc. The first one was in the middling 200s when I threw in the towel. The second one went through several rounds of revisions before I landed an agent.

Now I'm revising again... whee!

Suffice to say, if I ever meet someone at a cocktail party in the future and his response to finding out that I'm a writer is, "Oh that's a pretty easy job isn't it?" I'm going to pop him right in the nose.

Frankly, I don't have time for rejections or the emotions of rejection.

Years ago, I went to commercial art school, and later I owned an agent and also worked in the comic industry.

The biggest lesson I learned back then is this:

Rejections don't mean squat. Too many agents and publishers have to limit their work so much that they don't look at potential...and in some cases I doubt they even read much of what they request.

However...

...I do look to see if they offer advice...and if they do, I always thank them and attempt to keep the possibility of further communication open.

On my first book, I had a top agent request the full manuscript. She rejected, but took the time to tell me its strengths and weaknesses in the rejection. She said she like it enough to want to see more of my work.

Now, I can send her entire manuscripts without doing a query.

But back to the time issue...I have about 6 book concepts I'm fleshing out, and 4 others that I'm writing. That same agent wants to see my current fantasy project, and I committed to a May deadline to send her a first draft (it will be a revised draft, really).

I just don't have time to go back and make more improvements to earlier work. If an agent or publisher contacts me and says they would be interested in the work if I made certain changes, then I would make the changes (within reason). But unless that happens, I'm on to the next project.

But there is a reason for that...the lesson I learned in the comic book industry and commercial art school...practice makes improvement. By doing revisions, you can improve a single work. By writing more books, you can improve your writing skills.

Revisions have a place...especially if a work isn't ready to show, but once it is, move on. Do more work that is not on the same book, otherwise your brain becomes bored.

Of my four current book projects, I have:

• An Epic Fantasy novel with a complete story, but one that can lead into more books (almost 700 pages)
• An Action fiction novel involving a female soldier whose family is killed back home in a terrorist attack, and she declares a personal war on all terrorists.
• A Classic Fiction novel my grandmother started years ago about a boy and his horse. I'm doing a rewrite and expanding on the story as a 100th birthday gift to her.
• A Superhuman fiction novel where a world is ravaged by a virus that turns out to be the worlds salvation.
  

So my current projects involve four different genres...although my main genre is fantasy. It keeps my brain from being blocked.

I write one large book every 9 months...and usually 3 of those months I spend jumping from project to project before getting serious about one book.

It's important to note that I am writing full time at home, and because of my health, it's all I can do for a living now.

Drachen Jager said:

Suffice to say, if I ever meet someone at a cocktail party in the future and his response to finding out that I'm a writer is, "Oh that's a pretty easy job isn't it?" I'm going to pop him right in the nose.

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Yeah, I'm right there with you. Writing my novel (many times over) is the hardest thing I've ever done.

I think it depends on what kind of rejections you get. I've submitted a relative few, but when I only received form rejections, I changed the query after 5 'no'. I finally have a draft that is good.

On another note, before I started the query process, I didn't think I'd ever be happy to see a rejection. I finally got a rejection with my newest query that offered a critique and not just "no thank you". I take it as progress, and back to more revisions while I also write the next story.

PeteDutcher said:

Frankly, I don't have time for rejections or the emotions of rejection.

Years ago, I went to commercial art school, and later I owned an agent and also worked in the comic industry.

The biggest lesson I learned back then is this:

Rejections don't mean squat. Too many agents and publishers have to limit their work so much that they don't look at potential...and in some cases I doubt they even read much of what they request.

However...

...I do look to see if they offer advice...and if they do, I always thank them and attempt to keep the possibility of further communication open.

On my first book, I had a top agent request the full manuscript. She rejected, but took the time to tell me its strengths and weaknesses in the rejection. She said she like it enough to want to see more of my work.

Now, I can send her entire manuscripts without doing a query.

But back to the time issue...I have about 6 book concepts I'm fleshing out, and 4 others that I'm writing. That same agent wants to see my current fantasy project, and I committed to a May deadline to send her a first draft (it will be a revised draft, really).

I just don't have time to go back and make more improvements to earlier work. If an agent or publisher contacts me and says they would be interested in the work if I made certain changes, then I would make the changes (within reason). But unless that happens, I'm on to the next project.

But there is a reason for that...the lesson I learned in the comic book industry and commercial art school...practice makes improvement. By doing revisions, you can improve a single work. By writing more books, you can improve your writing skills.

Revisions have a place...especially if a work isn't ready to show, but once it is, move on. Do more work that is not on the same book, otherwise your brain becomes bored.

Of my four current book projects, I have:

• An Epic Fantasy novel with a complete story, but one that can lead into more books (almost 700 pages)
• An Action fiction novel involving a female soldier whose family is killed back home in a terrorist attack, and she declares a personal war on all terrorists.
  [*]A Classic Fiction novel my grandmother started years ago about a boy and his horse. I'm doing a rewrite and expanding on the story as a 100th birthday gift to her.
• A Superhuman fiction novel where a world is ravaged by a virus that turns out to be the worlds salvation.
  

So my current projects involve four different genres...although my main genre is fantasy. It keeps my brain from being blocked.

I write one large book every 9 months...and usually 3 of those months I spend jumping from project to project before getting serious about one book.

It's important to note that I am writing full time at home, and because of my health, it's all I can do for a living now.

Click to expand...

Wow! That is awesome - best present ever.

If I didn't have at least a 1 in 10 request rate, I rethought the query. That's a bare minimum, and for me if it wasn't attracting more attention it meant that there was a problem with the query. I did a couple of query rewrites both times.

As for the manuscript, that was more a matter of general feedback. The first one I did a couple of revisions while querying and I never really got much feedback, even on full requests. I knew that meant that it wasn't there yet. Granted, by the time I gave up on it, I had another book in the wings ready to go.

The second book had a huge difference in terms of response. While the first was mostly form rejections, the second got many personalized rejections with feedback, requests to send the next book, etc. I had a couple of people who offered to let me revise and resend (one of whom eventually became my agent) and even when I did get feedback, it was overwhelmingly positive ("This is great but not quite right for my list"). The only revision I even considered there was the one that was asked of me that I agreed with.

The moral of the story is that you can generally tell how the manuscript stacks up based on responses, but I personally think that it's better to move on to the next book than to spend a year rewriting the one you're sending. I'd suggest a revision only if you get good feedback offering problems that you can agree with. Otherwise, the time is better spent working on the next and trying again with that one.

Atlanta said:

...re-think your query and/or manuscript?

Just wondering how you all decide...

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I wondered this myself, but realized that it just depends. I sent out about 25 queries and got 10 form rejections...discouraging, right? I thought maybe I should revise the query and/or first pages. But then I received 4 full requests from my top choice agents. (The rest are no response.)

So, while my query/first pages might not be working for some agents, clearly it's working for others...

I also have to consider my genre (memoir) which is a tough sell to begin with.

Sounds like you've only queried a handful of agents. I'd give it more time and if you don't get ANY positive response, then revise.

When I first started, I stopped at five and revised. But I had no critique group and knew nothing. Those five prompted me to look for Beta Readers. That was fifteen years ago.

Now I get more positive responses than negative ones. I don't revise after I've started submitting unless rejection letter feedback triggers a "that makes sense" response. I'm adding a new first chapter to one of my manuscripts for that reason. That agent requested other work, which I will send with a thank you for the feedback and the information that I have taken her advice should she like to see the revised work in question. (It was not a revise and resend response.)
Take what you can use and leave the rest behind.

I will submit until I have exhausted every agent and afterwards publisher who accepts the genre for each of my pieces.

I like Kaitie's one in ten suggestion. If the query's good, you should get requests from 10% or so at least.

I'm revising my ms. right now, but that was after rejections on three fulls and two partials, most of which were very personalized and gave me good ideas of where my story was weaker. The last full I actually emailed the agent back (as she's someone I'm very interested in working with) and told her that her suggestions really resonated with me--a la Debbie V's. "That makes sense response" above--and I'd love to send her the revision in a few months. She said that would be fine.

There's no rule of thumb, but I agree that you'll kind of get a feel for how well it's going.

For my first novel, it wasn't the number of queries but the comments I got on some of them. I sent out 150 queries, of which about 40 asked to see a larger sample. Nobody bit, but nearly everybody who sent a personal note gave me identical feedback.

Pretty clear evidence that a part of the book needed work.

Just my two cents.

I'm kind of paranoid compulsive. I changed my query after neat every rejection and edited my story every 5 rejections.

PeteDutcher said:

Frankly, I don't have time for rejections or the emotions of rejection.

Years ago, I went to commercial art school, and later I owned an agent and also worked in the comic industry.

The biggest lesson I learned back then is this:

Rejections don't mean squat. Too many agents and publishers have to limit their work so much that they don't look at potential...and in some cases I doubt they even read much of what they request.

However...

...I do look to see if they offer advice...and if they do, I always thank them and attempt to keep the possibility of further communication open.

On my first book, I had a top agent request the full manuscript. She rejected, but took the time to tell me its strengths and weaknesses in the rejection. She said she like it enough to want to see more of my work.

Now, I can send her entire manuscripts without doing a query.

But back to the time issue...I have about 6 book concepts I'm fleshing out, and 4 others that I'm writing. That same agent wants to see my current fantasy project, and I committed to a May deadline to send her a first draft (it will be a revised draft, really).

I just don't have time to go back and make more improvements to earlier work. If an agent or publisher contacts me and says they would be interested in the work if I made certain changes, then I would make the changes (within reason). But unless that happens, I'm on to the next project.

But there is a reason for that...the lesson I learned in the comic book industry and commercial art school...practice makes improvement. By doing revisions, you can improve a single work. By writing more books, you can improve your writing skills.

Revisions have a place...especially if a work isn't ready to show, but once it is, move on. Do more work that is not on the same book, otherwise your brain becomes bored.

Of my four current book projects, I have:

• An Epic Fantasy novel with a complete story, but one that can lead into more books (almost 700 pages)
• An Action fiction novel involving a female soldier whose family is killed back home in a terrorist attack, and she declares a personal war on all terrorists.
• A Classic Fiction novel my grandmother started years ago about a boy and his horse. I'm doing a rewrite and expanding on the story as a 100th birthday gift to her.
• A Superhuman fiction novel where a world is ravaged by a virus that turns out to be the worlds salvation.
  

So my current projects involve four different genres...although my main genre is fantasy. It keeps my brain from being blocked.

I write one large book every 9 months...and usually 3 of those months I spend jumping from project to project before getting serious about one book.

It's important to note that I am writing full time at home, and because of my health, it's all I can do for a living now.

Click to expand...

I don't know about comic books, but pretty much nothing you wrote in this post has even a grain of truth in book publishing.

Rejections don't mean squat. Too many agents and publishers have to limit their work so much that they don't look at potential...and in some cases I doubt they even read much of what they request.

However...

...I do look to see if they offer advice...and if they do, I always thank them and attempt to keep the possibility of further communication open.

On my first book, I had a top agent request the full manuscript. She rejected, but took the time to tell me its strengths and weaknesses in the rejection. She said she like it enough to want to see more of my work.

Now, I can send her entire manuscripts without doing a query.

Click to expand...

Actually James, this part is right on the money. I'm don't recommend the "abandon it if it's not perfect" attitude -- but I do know a few successful writers who use that method. Seems to me like a waste of good effort.

Never give up, never surrender!

I think it greatly depends on your experience level. If this is your first novel then revise as much as you want. After 5 rejections if you want to.

But once you've reached a level of which you are confident with your writing ability than 15-20 seems more reasonable to me (I feel like at 10 you could have just been unlucky with agents who didn't fit). that gives you enough of a base to say that it most likely isn't just the genre or concept not hitting the right chorde with the chosen agents (or them being too full, or busy etc.) .

That's the thing with this industry, it isn't always about your work needing revisions. A lot of times it is about the market at the time. So hitting the perfect number is nearly impossible.

The best rule of thumb is to go with your gut IMO.

I like Kaitie's philosophy of the 1 in 10. I find myself rethinking a query after around 5 or 6, but that wasn't really the plan. I had intended to make it to double digits before changing anything when I first started sending stuff out. But after 5 or 6, sometimes less, I always wind up looking at the query/manuscript/whatever and saying, "Can I make this better?" And usually, the answer is "Yes." So I do.

So far I've gotten three responses from the 13 or so agents I've queried. One asked for ms (who's actually pretty high up according to my research), the other two sent me personal and rather nice rejection letters explaining that while they liked my idea I didn't quite fit their list of clients.

As it is I don't plan to change my query letter. My story is chick lit and I know I'll probably get much more negative responses (or none at all) than positive ones for the reason many of agents I've queried are interested in general women's fiction but not so much chick lit specifically. I understand many will turn me away even if I have a decent enough query letter simply due to disinterest in the subject matter.

If I get some feedback following a rejection from the first agent however, I'll be open to revising my ms.

I did an initial round of 20 queries and got nowhere. Spent a couple months heavily revising the manuscript, kicked my queries into shape, and now I've gotten quite a few requests in the first week. I wish I hadn't queried so many before re-assessing and followed my gut: my book wasn't ready yet.

but but but

I'm holding up my hand at the back of the classroom.

If your 1st novel fails, and you start right away on a 2nd, without spending much time rewriting the first, aren't you likely to repeat the same mistakes?

Isn't is worth learning all you can from an effort, which means polishing, learning, and rewriting, before you move on?

I really think I learned more from the revision process than I did from the initial writing, so in my opinion it's really worth following it through.

I'm at around the 20 form rejections milestone, and only like 2 of them were a bit more personalised and "encouraging" you could say.
I've revised and rewritten my queries several times, and to be honest at this point I'm already rethinking the manuscript.

Rethink your query? 10-20.

Rethink your manuscript? Never.

I don't care how bad your manuscript is, write a good query and you should get partial/full requests.

Once people start rejecting your manuscript after reading partials/fulls, you can worry about your manuscript.

tko said:

I'm holding up my hand at the back of the classroom.

If your 1st novel fails, and you start right away on a 2nd, without spending much time rewriting the first, aren't you likely to repeat the same mistakes?

Isn't is worth learning all you can from an effort, which means polishing, learning, and rewriting, before you move on?

I really think I learned more from the revision process than I did from the initial writing, so in my opinion it's really worth following it through.

Click to expand...

But you should do all your revising before you start querying.

If you start querying and get no requests for fulls or partials, the implication is that there's a problem with your query, not your book.

If you get plenty of requests but the fun stops there, then yep, your book might need work. At that point you can consider revising your book: but unless you get a specific "revise and resubmit" request then you might well be better off working on your next book instead.

You learn an awful lot about how to write books from actually writing books.

Here's my experience, for what it's worth:

First novel-queried 30 agents total, having edited the query letter after around the first 15 rejections. The new query earned me one partial (which later became a rejection). I could have queried more widely but knew the novel just wasn't 'it'. It wasn't a problem with the query letter so much as the novel, in that it wasn't unique enough from what was already out there.

Second novel-LOVED my query. Therefore it was pretty disappointing to get 15 rejections in a row. Still, I LOVED the query and couldn't dream of changing anything. So I didn't and just kept sending. All of a sudden the fulls and partials started rolling in. So I guess there's something to be said for trusting your gut.

This is really interesting. I think it's simpler when it comes to when you need to change your query letter. IMO, if you query 20 agents but don't get one request for a partial / full, it's time to tweak that letter, maybe the opening chapter if you're sending samples of your writing. Certainly don't change the entire MS. Sure, it could be the writing but then IMO, you shouldn't be querying if your writing isn't at a certain level anyway (eg, you're a natural talent or you've done your research / courses to hone your writing).

But it's what to do once the requests start rolling in. At what point do you realise your MS needs changing? So how many rejections on fulls? I always worry I'll revise based on one agent's comments or a general revision based on, say, two form / vague rejections of a full but I change the novel in a way that might not appeal to other agents. I guess it's like others have said: revise if a comment really resonates.

I like Drachen Jager's suggesting of re-assessing every 50 agents or so. But then is it advisable to query that many agents before you think about revising again because what if amongst those agents there was someone who'd have liked your revised MS?

Arghhhhhhhhh, so difficult! KK