Liverfools and Dippers - how rude is it?

Torill · Jan 21, 2012

One of my characters is a rabid Manchester United fan. I'm not that interested in football myself, but I don't intend to describe any actual football game, either, so that's OK. It's not an enormous plot point in my story. But I need to get the way the character speaks about football right.

l've spent I don't know how many days around various football forums on the net, both general sites and ManU fan sites. That's where I discovered all the many creative names ManU fans have for their favourite enemy, Liverpool FC.

'The Liverfools' made me giggle (I'm a simple soul when it comes to humour) so had to use that. 'The dippers' was quite a popular term as well - but what does it mean?

I'm not a native English speaker, so my trusted source when in doubt is the online Oxford English Dictionary. They list a lot of slang words and usually tell whether they're vulgar or not. This is what they have to say about 'dipper':

a short-tailed songbird
a ladle or scoop
a person who dips something in liquid
informal a pickpocket
archaic, informal a Baptist or Anabaptist

Given the general tone and word choice in some of the posts where certain ManU fans slam their love-to-hate opponents, I somehow doubt they wouldn't call them anything worse than 'pickpockets' (not to mention short-tailed songbirds...). So I suspect the word may have taken on board a ruder meaning among football fans. I suppose there are less polite ways you could interpret "a person who dips something in liquid" for instance...

But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe they do mean nothing worse than pickpocket? I have been a bit shy about asking the posters on the hard core fan forums how rude they actually intend to be - I'm afraid they wouldn't take very kindly to this sort of fake fan question on their boards. So - any brits and/or ManU fans in here that would know?

(I don't intend to be very rude in my book, no too bad four-letter words - so would be good to know if this one's very far on the bad side for those in the know...)

Xelebes · Jan 21, 2012

I don't know much about footie, but I am a fan of hockey. When I hear the word "dipper", it makes me think of the word we use in Canada: "diver" - or someone who flourishes (dive or dip?) to draw a penalty. This may not be correct, but it is a common complaint in ball-and-net games like footie and hockey.

waylander · Jan 22, 2012

There are many many jokes playing on the reputation of 'thieving Scousers' so I suspect 'dipper' refers to pickpockets.

Torill · Jan 22, 2012

Thanks for your input Xelebes and waylander!

As a random abuse word 'pickpocket' seemed a bit lame to me - but if calling Liverpudlians thieves is a common 'regionalist slur' in the UK, I suppose ManU fans would use it against them, too. I'll keep it, and leave it to my publisher (if I ever get one, that is :rolleyes

) to decide whether it's too offensive.

mirandashell · Jan 22, 2012

It wouldn't be too offensive. In fact it's quite mild. But yeah, Scousers do have a reputation for theivery and have had for many many years.

The dipper insult probably has to do with getting pickpocketed at Anfield.

waylander · Jan 22, 2012

Example: "What do you call a scouser in a suit?"
"The accused."

Torill · Jan 22, 2012

mirandashell said:
The dipper insult probably has to do with getting pickpocketed at Anfield.

Really? You're saying 'dipper' is not a regionalist slur, but an accurate description of people from Liverpool - that they are a bunch of pickpockets and thieves the lot of them?

I assume that in the football fan war of words (believe me, fans of other teams are in every way as creative in their descriptions of ManU - 'Manure', for instance, seems to be very popular...) it's 'anything goes' - you use whatever weapon you have in your arsenal. If jokes about Scousers as thieves are common in the UK, then of course you will use that against them, whether you believe it's true or not. I don't believe any other experience at Anfield than seeing ManU lose to the archenemy will be necessary to provoke ManU fans to say this and worse about the Scouser team.

(Of course, previous experiences with the various hooligan 'football firms' may also play into this - Liverpool supporters had a very bad reputation - but from all the research I did on hooligans (probably unecessary, my character neither was nor is a hooligan) I know I wouldn't have wanted to meet ManU's so called 'Red Army' outside a football stadion either - not to mention Westham's Inter City Firm or Millwall's worst supporters!)

I'm not sure I want to be seen as if I subscribe to this regionalist prejudice in my book, though, if I can find other, equally authentic insults to let my character use. I'd like to sell my book in Liverpool as well, you know.

Torill · Jan 22, 2012

waylander said:
Example: "What do you call a scouser in a suit?"
"The accused."

Regionalist slur or not, this is actually kind of funny...

Thanks for the example - helps me put it all into perspective.

Cath · Jan 22, 2012

Because it's a reputation doesn't mean it's true. Regional prejudice is what defines the relationship between the two cities and is especially part of the football culture. Honestly, I think if you want to accurately reflect the culture you should leave it in.

Both are mild insults honestly - much of what you'd hear is a lot coarser.

Cath - who used to live in Manchester.

mirandashell · Jan 22, 2012

Where did I say it was true? Of course it isn't.

Every region in this country has an insult attached to it.

Scousers are theives.
Londoners are wide boys and scammers
Brummies are thick
Yorkshiremen are arrogant
Mancs are up themselves.

And so on and so on....

And if you have a Manc in your story and he doesn't insult a Scouser, I'd think your story was unrealistic and you were a chicken

The way not to put off Scousers from reading your story is to throw insults back. The English use banter as conversation. It's in our genome. Use it.

Besides which... dipper is a very mild insult. Chants at Man U/Liverpool games tend be more along the lines of:

'Always check the runway for ice' sung to the tune of 'Always look on the bright side of life' from Monty Python's Life of Brian. That's how nasty it can get. Dipper barely scratches the surface.

waylander · Jan 22, 2012

If we are going to keep to stereotypes, every Scouser thinks they are a comedian, so they will answer back

Priene · Jan 22, 2012

I seem to remember singing We want our hubcaps back against Liverpool many years ago. A classic anti-Liverpool song is

In your Liverpool slums
You search through the dustbin for something to eat
You find a dead rat and you think it's a treat
In your Liverpool slums

crunchyblanket · Jan 22, 2012

Many years ago, when Millwall played Liverpool, I remember chanting 'stand up if you've got a job'.

Oh, and there's this classic, to the tune of 'You Are My Sunshine'

You are a scouser,
A dirty scouser,
You're only happy,
On Giro day,
You're mum's out thieving,
You're dads drug dealing,
So please dont take my hubcaps away.

(In the interests of fairness, I should point out that all Londoners are rude, snobby and soft as shite, or alternatively, as dodgy dealers out to scam you. All Yorkshiremen have flat caps, race whippets and spend all day down the pub eating pies. All Mancunians are miserable because it rains all the time, and they love gravy...except for Man Utd fans, who are from London.)

Priene · Jan 22, 2012

crunchyblanket said:
Many years ago, when Millwall played Liverpool, I remember chanting 'stand up if you've got a job'.

I remember singing No-one likes you cause you smell when Norwich played Millwall.

Smish · Jan 22, 2012

This thread is hilarious.

crunchyblanket · Jan 22, 2012

Priene said:
I remember singing No-one likes you cause you smell when Norwich played Millwall.

Ahaha, Naarrrrrich, where everyone has webbed toes and walks backwards

"Your sister is your mother, your father is your brother, you all shag one another, the Norwich family"

(and actually, no-one likes us because we're a bunch of no-necked, empty-headed baldy racist twats

)

mirandashell · Jan 22, 2012

That Norwich one must sound brilliant at a match!

Priene · Jan 22, 2012

mirandashell said:
That Norwich one must sound brilliant at a match!

My all-time favourite is one we used to sing to Grimsby:

You're shit, and you stink of fish

Priene · Jan 22, 2012

crunchyblanket said:
(and actually, no-one likes us because we're a bunch of no-necked, empty-headed baldy racist twats )

I remember seeing Norwich giving a Millwall an absolute pasting back in the eighties, 5-1 or 6-1 I think. The Millwall fans (who all dressed exactly like Hoddle and Waddle) stood in silence for eighty-five minutes and then sang just one song:

Will you stay and fight outside?

waylander · Jan 22, 2012

Bearing in mind Millwall's motto is 'everybody hates us, we don't care.'

crunchyblanket · Jan 22, 2012

The sad thing is, most of 'em still dress like that now.

As a card-carrying pikey, I like the one we sing at Gillingham - 'the wheels on your house go round and round...'

Bearing in mind Millwall's motto is 'everybody hates us, we don't care.'

it's 'no-one likes us, we don't care'

(and it's true. Nobody does like us. It's kind of our own fault for being dicks throughout the 80's and 90's.)

waylander · Jan 22, 2012

I'm still not coming up for the 4th round match

Torill · Jan 22, 2012

Several of these chants could have been translated and used by certain football fans in my own country, agaist their local rivals - with only slight alterations. This sort of insult war seems to be an ingrained part of the football fan culture everywhere.

If my goal had been to paint a realistic, in-depth portrait of football fan culture, and the regional prejudice between Manchester and Liverpool, I would of course have to use this sort of banter, and lots of it. But it isn't.

My story is not entirely realistic, and not set in a defined geographical place. It's a Western European city with a river running through it, and I suppose many would guess it was somewhere in the UK - but I'm not saying that it is. The supernatural does play a part - but I want to have my realistic details as real as possible, to keep the whole thing grounded. I chose Man Utd. as my football fan character's team of choice, just because they have a very widespread fan base, all over the world (you find a lot of them in my country as well!)

The situation where I need a few of the milder versions of these insults, is when the character in question plays with a football together with the protagonist's five year old son. His friend teases him with Liverpool as the better team, because he knows it will trigger him and thinks that's funny. But the character would be very aware of what he says in front of a five-year-old. He wouldn't spout out the coarser of the insults he could have used. The ensuing banter is between himself and his friend who is not a Scouser, not a Liverpool fan, not even much of a football fan - so would be a lot more personal than all that. Not your average football match type banter, in other words.

I would have no qualms if I utilised regional prejudices and insults from my own country. I know my own culture, so feel confident that I know what would be OK and what would cross the line. But when it comes to insults about regions in the UK, I know I don't know where the line is. That's why I need you guys. All your examples of insults to people and teams from different regions in the UK do seem reassuring - maybe I worry too much. But it's always dangerous to wade in and throw insults about in a language and a culture that is not your own.

mirandashell said:
Where did I say it was true? Of course it isn't.

I'm very sorry, I obviously misunderstood you. It was the idea I got from your post that the ManU fans would call Liverpool thieves because of a real experience of having their pockets picked at their stadion that made me draw the wrong conclusion. I'm very grateful for your input and your examples here, they do help me a lot, so I hope you will forgive me for misconstruing your post.

Thanks for all your input everyone. Now - carry on with the party. More fan chants and insults please! :popcorn:

Priene · Jan 22, 2012

crunchyblanket said:
it's 'no-one likes us, we don't care' (and it's true. Nobody does like us. It's kind of our own fault for being dicks throughout the 80's and 90's.)

As Half Man Half Biscuit sang

Sealed Knot Society, let’s see you try and do this one:
Luton Town – Millwall, nineteen eighty-five

waylander said:
I'm still not coming up for the 4th round match

I went in the away end at Millwall once (for this game, in fact). Even the children in their family enclosure were challenging us to fight. We scored late on and their fans went mad. I think that was the time they sang You'll never make the station.

Actually, maybe that was us at home. Things were feisty in the eighties.

mirandashell · Jan 22, 2012

Torill said:
I'm very sorry, I obviously misunderstood you. It was the idea I got from your post that the ManU fans would call Liverpool thieves because of a real experience of having their pockets picked at their stadion that made me draw the wrong conclusion. I'm very grateful for your input and your examples here, they do help me a lot, so I hope you will forgive me for misconstruing your post.

No you're right. I was vaguer than I should have been. What I meant is that the only time the word dipper is used is to describe a pickpocket. And I'm thinking that the only time it would come up is in a banter about Scousers at Anfield.

So no worries.

Liverfools and Dippers - how rude is it?

Not as trollish as you might think

Delerium ex Ennui

Who's going for a beer?

Not as trollish as you might think

Who's going for a beer?

Not as trollish as you might think

Not as trollish as you might think

The mean one

Who's going for a beer?

Out to lunch

the Juggernaut of Imperfection

Out to lunch

Reads more than she writes.

the Juggernaut of Imperfection

Out to lunch

Out to lunch

Who's going for a beer?

the Juggernaut of Imperfection

Who's going for a beer?

Not as trollish as you might think

Out to lunch