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nighttimer
01-05-2012, 01:24 AM
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ylPUzxpIBe0)made me laugh out loud. :ROFL: Check it out and tell me there's no truth to it.

It reminded me of the time I was at a office Xmas party at a bar and I was talking with a White female and this dude comes up, drunker than hell, butts in and tells the lady, "Oh, you're just talking to him because he's Black and he's got a big one. Right? RIGHT?"

Well, I don't like to brag, but....:cool:

escritora
01-05-2012, 01:33 AM
That was difficult to watch and funny at the same time.

nighttimer
01-05-2012, 01:35 AM
That was difficult to watch and funny at the same time.

What was difficult about it? The funniest thing about it is how true it was.

escritora
01-05-2012, 01:49 AM
What was difficult about it? The funniest thing about it is how true it was.

That's the same reason it's difficult to watch. I imagine there's a lot of truth. For someone to touch a black woman's hair and say, "Oh, but it's so nappy" and the slavery comment, I don't know, my stomach sank.

nighttimer
01-05-2012, 02:10 AM
That may be so, but isn't it better to defuse awkward situations by finding something to laugh about instead of getting defensive or aggressive or rude?

Once we stop laughing and drop our shields, maybe we can start having honest conversations about the shit White girls say to Black girls and the shit Black girls say to White girls that drives them both nuts.

We gotta start somewhere.

MacAllister
01-05-2012, 02:13 AM
Heh. That's horribly funny in a sort of specifically wince-inducing way.

I gotta admit, though, the "Girlfriend" thing is something I associate very specifically with the drag queen/drag show subcultural milieu.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 02:19 AM
Oh, man, I know these girls. I let these girls give me a makeover in college one night, AAMOF. You know they say astoundingly rude things to everyone not like them (I know you know, but it's worth adding).

I have been known to holla. But if I came across this way, tell me and I'll jump off a bridge or something ;)

escritora
01-05-2012, 02:22 AM
That may be so, but isn't it better to defuse awkward situations by finding something to laugh about instead of getting defensive or aggressive or rude?

Once we stop laughing and drop our shields, maybe we can start having honest conversations about the shit White girls say to Black girls and the shit Black girls say to White girls that drives them both nuts.

We gotta start somewhere.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to poo-poo on the thread. I understand why you and others find it laugh out loud funny.

Perks
01-05-2012, 02:26 AM
Gah. The link doesn't work anymore. I wanted to see.

Nevermind! Works now. Weird that it didn't. Be back with an opinion.

Perks
01-05-2012, 02:32 AM
She's hilarious. And yeah, funny is a great way to point out easily avoided wrongness.

Jcomp
01-05-2012, 02:34 AM
I think every group is worthy of a "horrible shit we say and don't even realize how horrible it is when we're saying it to or about other people who are different from us". I was drinking / talking with a female friend this weekend who is Mexican. She told a story about how the only white dude she had dated had pursued her sincerely for several months before she gave it a go. Then, on their first date, in the company of another couple who were worrying over who could take care of their kid while the wife went back to work, the guy straight up tells them that they should just "get a Mexican lady to watch after" the kid. Didn't even realized he'd offended the date he'd tried so damn hard to get with.

Then, the girl in question, in the midst of flirting with me, told me I'd only be the 2nd black guy she had ever dated (were she to have the opportunity) since she thought black men were lazy based on her experience with the first and only black guy she'd ever been with (a firefighter who didn't like to clean his house... that's not lazy, that's just being a bachelor who's tired after coming home from a hard day of battling freaking infernos). Didn't realize she had insulted me either. Just kept right on flirting like it was gravy.

Perks
01-05-2012, 02:46 AM
I think every group is worthy of a "horrible shit we say and don't even realize how horrible it is when we're saying it to or about other people who are different from us". 'Tis true. Here's a transcript of a conversation I had a few weeks ago:

R: I kept a four-point-oh in grad school. Straight through!

(side note: I don't know why she was telling me this. It was one of those times when someone starts talking to you from the middle of a conversation she was having in her head before you walked up.)

Me: That's great!

R: Do you have your Master's?

Me: No.

R: Oh? Where'd you do your undergrad.

Me: I didn't.

R: You didn't go to school? What did you do?

Me: I went to work.

R: Doing what?

Me: All kinds of things.

At this, R kinda recoils, clutching at the invisible pearls she wears during the conversations in her head.

R: Anything legal?

Me: What?!

R: Well, you didn't go to school and you were being just so- so- vague.

*sigh*

Jcomp
01-05-2012, 02:52 AM
'Tis true. Here's a transcript of a conversation I had a few weeks ago:

R: I kept a four-point-oh in grad school. Straight through!

(side note: I don't know why she was telling me this. It was one of those times when someone starts talking to you from the middle of a conversation she was having in her head before you walked up.)

Me: That's great!

R: Do you have your Master's?

Me: No.

R: Oh? Where'd you do your undergrad.

Me: I didn't.

R: You didn't go to school? What did you do?

Me: I went to work.

R: Doing what?

Me: All kinds of things.

At this, R kinda recoils, clutching at the invisible pearls she wears during the conversations in her head.

R: Anything legal?

Me: What?!

R: Well, you didn't go to school and you were being just so- so- vague.

*sigh*


Wow. That's nuts. It's almost like "R" was setting up that convo just to be able to say something insulting about someone not going to school. Yeesh.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 03:08 AM
The invisible pearl ladies -- YES! They are so awful.

I have one 'shit white girls say' vs. 'shit black folks say' that always struck me as funny. I was on a very preppy drill team in high school, and every time I came to practice after rushing to get to school that morning, I'd hear, "Oooooh, somebody got a perm!" Oohs and ahs would commence.

OTOH, at my workplace where I was the only white girl, if I came in like that, this one guy would always say, "Thanks, BSB, for getting all fixed up for us this morning." LOL.

My hair extra-curly means I overslept, not that I got a perm :D :D

Perks
01-05-2012, 03:09 AM
But back on topic (sorry!) the only thing I'd say against that video is that the discussion of the word 'nigger' is a valuable, if volatile, one.

I mean, not the way the girl in the video says it. Lol! Oh dear.

Perks
01-05-2012, 03:16 AM
BSB, that reminds me of another story. I ducked into a drugstore once for just a tube of toothpaste. The cashier was a young black guy and I thought he was kind of looking at me funny.

"That'll be $11.47."

"Eleven dollars for a tube of toothpaste?"

Then I looked down at the counter. Someone had left a box of extra-strength creme relaxer.

"Oh, that's not mine," I said.

"Yeah, I was kind of wondering what you were gonna do with that."

"If my hair was any more relaxed, it would slide right off my head."

We had a laugh. And I brushed my teeth eventually.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 03:19 AM
But back on topic (sorry!) the only thing I'd say against that video is that the discussion of the word 'nigger' is a valuable, if volatile, one.

I mean, not the way the girl in the video says it. Lol! Oh dear.

I think it's kind of not valuable, too, though. Of all the things for white people to discuss with black people, that one strikes me as covered the moment your parents told you as a kid to just never go there. It's such an obvious one, I get bothered if I hear adults rehashing arguments that they should have had as kids.

Black people talking about using it as a reclamation or not with their older kids makes sense, of course. But what else do white people have to know other than that it's inexcusable to go there? I guess I always wonder what's not to get about that.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 03:20 AM
BSB, that reminds me of another story. I ducked into a drugstore once for just a tube of toothpaste. The cashier was a young black guy and I thought he was kind of looking at me funny.

"That'll be $11.47."

"Eleven dollars for a tube of toothpaste?"

Then I looked down at the counter. Someone had left a box of extra-strength creme relaxer.

"Oh, that's not mine," I said.

"Yeah, I was kind of wondering what you were gonna do with that."

"If my hair was any more relaxed, it would slide right off my head."

We had a laugh. And I brushed my teeth eventually.

Ha! I like how you put it :ROFL:

Perks
01-05-2012, 03:26 AM
I think it's kind of not valuable, too, though. Of all the things for white people to discuss with black people, that one strikes me as covered the moment your parents told you as a kid to just never go there. It's such an obvious one, I get bothered if I hear adults rehashing arguments that they should have had as kids.

Black people talking about using it as a reclamation or not with their older kids makes sense, of course. But what else do white people have to know other than that it's inexcusable to go there? I guess I always wonder what's not to get about that.Oh, I agree. But since white people seem to not get it reasonably often, it still needs to be explained, tiresome as it may be.

Plus, I think it's interesting as practically a singularity in the modern lexicon - a word with such terrible weight and still some flexibility in context.

I'm also not suggesting that any white person be comfortable grilling any black person on this topic. It's not a matter of demanding an explanation or accounting. I'd just like to think that if it can come up and there's an interest among friends or friendly acquaintances, that it not be off limits.

kuwisdelu
01-05-2012, 03:33 AM
I think it's kind of not valuable, too, though. Of all the things for white people to discuss with black people, that one strikes me as covered the moment your parents told you as a kid to just never go there. It's such an obvious one, I get bothered if I hear adults rehashing arguments that they should have had as kids.

Black people talking about using it as a reclamation or not with their older kids makes sense, of course. But what else do white people have to know other than that it's inexcusable to go there? I guess I always wonder what's not to get about that.

Hmm. I'm kind of curious now. What do the black guys and gals in this thread think of if another PoC uses it, intending it as a term of endearment? It clearly carries baggage when it's a white person, but what effect does it have if, say, a latino or Native American uses it with friendly intentions? Is it more of a "only we can use it" thing or a "white people can't use it" thing? Or a case-by-case "depends on our relationship" thing?

Jcomp
01-05-2012, 03:50 AM
Hmm. I'm kind of curious now. What do the black guys and gals in this thread think of if another PoC uses it, intending it as a term of endearment? It clearly carries baggage when it's a white person, but what effect does it have if, say, a latino or Native American uses it with friendly intentions? Is it more of a "only we can use it" thing or a "white people can't use it" thing? Or a case-by-case "depends on our relationship" thing?

I know particular parties here on the boards hate all uses of the word--hate that it's used even by black people--and I respect that. Personally, I use it with everyone I'm genuinely cool with regardless of race, and once I've used it on you, you're free to reciprocate in private company, thought that's not an extension to use it around any other black person as you see fit with no expectation of causing offense, which is where it tends to get tricky for people (and may be a reason why it's better avoided altogether... c'est la vie). It's like getting a VIP bracelet into an exclusive club then thinking it automatically works at every other club on the strip.

Regarding other PoC's specifically, growing up in Mississippi when I did, there weren't very many other PoC's to directly interact with outside of a small but significant Vietnamese population that seemed insulated. So until I got to high school in Texas, I just sort of presumed that all PoC's got along and as such had a free pass to use the word, especially since the guys in Cypress Hill called themselves / each other the n-bomb affectionately and only one of them was even partly-black. The lesson being, southern boys in Mississippi who get their race-relations education from West Coast latino rappers are probably going to have some oddball notions about what is and isn't acceptable...

Medievalist
01-05-2012, 03:55 AM
Wow. That's nuts. It's almost like "R" was setting up that convo just to be able to say something insulting about someone not going to school. Yeesh.

It is ENTIRELY because of people like that that I tell some people I'm a high school drop out (which I am).

Perks
01-05-2012, 03:56 AM
Yeah, R's more wacky than nasty. Kind of a mis-medicated vibe going there.

missesdash
01-05-2012, 03:57 AM
I don't like the word "nigger" but "nigga" is somewhat more acceptable. Even still, the latter can only be used by other black people unless I indicate otherwise.

Other POC definitely don't get an automatic "hood pass." it's specific to the black community for me.

Medievalist
01-05-2012, 03:59 AM
Black people talking about using it as a reclamation or not with their older kids makes sense, of course. But what else do white people have to know other than that it's inexcusable to go there? I guess I always wonder what's not to get about that.

It's in a small class of words--and I do mean small--that people may use to self-identify, but it's risky to assume that a third party may use. Examples in English include dyke, kike, and fag. Don't use these if you're not being self-referential.

But even used within a sub-culture, it's risky; as Jcomp notes, there are people from within the sub-culture who find these words absolutely never acceptable; nighttimer has a really smart post about this that I've tried to find and can't.

There's a fancy linguistic term for this phenomena--it transcends languages--and damned if I can remember it now.

MacAllister
01-05-2012, 04:00 AM
This story about Richard Pryor (http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/black-is-beautiful/) is something I always think about, whenever a discussion comes up specifically about the word nigger, but about reclaiming language and in-group lexicons, as well:


According to Pryor, it was about owning the term, salving ourselves from any sting it might have had. However Pryor, whose albums included “That Nigger’s Crazy” and “Bicentennial Nigger”, said after a trip to Africa that he “didn’t see any niggers in Africa”. And he never used the word during a performance again.

“I was sitting by myself (in the Nairobi Hilton in Kenya) and I just looked around and it was like a voice said to me,”What do you see?” And I said,”People of all colors doing things together”.And another voice said “Do you see any niggers?” And I said,”No!”. And the voice said “Do you know why?”. And I said(whispering),”No”. And it said,”There aren’t any…”.

[Richard Pryor, l982 - interview with Ebony Magazine, page l98, Feb. 2007]

I don't know quite where to even start thinking about all the subtleties and convolutions that this story implies about culture, values, and language -- and I tie myself into Gordian knots over it in pretty short order...but it's a valuable anecdote for me, in terms of providing an entry-point into at least trying to grasp various sides of the conversation.

kuwisdelu
01-05-2012, 04:01 AM
It is ENTIRELY because of people like that that I tell some people I'm a high school drop out (which I am).

I should start telling such people I only managed to complete three years of high school (which is true).

I did rub my education in a couple guys' faces once when I was kind of disgusted by their showing off their penis tattoos and wanted them to shut up. I'm not proud of it, but it was a visceral reaction.

Perks
01-05-2012, 04:05 AM
Jcomp and nighttimer have both written really great posts on the topic before and I guess AW is a gated community in a way, but I wish more people could take in their diagrams.

It's valuable because it's not just about one word. As you mentioned, Medi, there are some others. If more people would just listen, even conflicting opinions on the topic make sense. We can follow the breadcrumbs back to a whole lot of understanding. It's important.

That's why, with tact, I don't want this to be something people can never ask about.

kuwisdelu
01-05-2012, 04:05 AM
I don't know quite where to even start thinking about all the subtleties and convolutions that this story implies about culture, values, and language -- and I tie myself into Gordian knots over it in pretty short order...but it's a valuable anecdote for me, in terms of providing an entry-point into at least trying to grasp various sides of the conversation.

Well, one thing that it reminds me of is how blacks in America have managed to cultivate a valuable and unique African American culture, strongly influenced by yet distinct from their many multiple ancestral heritages in Africa.

Devil Ledbetter
01-05-2012, 04:21 AM
I think the real problem is the notion that the way we talk to our PoC friends should be any different than the way we talk to our white friends. What we say should only differ based on the individual, not her skin color.

missesdash
01-05-2012, 04:28 AM
I'm a little uncomfortable with the title of the thread. I think a lot of our conversations straddle a line, but I don't really like the generalization, even if it is the title of the video.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 04:28 AM
I think the real problem is the notion that the way we talk to our PoC friends should be any different than the way we talk to our white friends. What we say should only differ based on the individual, not her skin color.

It's so few words that that view always strikes me as just plain stubborn. Imho, of course.

kuwisdelu
01-05-2012, 04:28 AM
It's in a small class of words--and I do mean small--that people may use to self-identify, but it's risky to assume that a third party may use. Examples in English include dyke, kike, and fag. Don't use these if you're not being self-referential.

But even used within a sub-culture, it's risky; as Jcomp notes, there are people from within the sub-culture who find these words absolutely never acceptable; nighttimer has a really smart post about this that I've tried to find and can't.

There's a fancy linguistic term for this phenomena--it transcends languages--and damned if I can remember it now.

In the Midwest, I self-identify as an Injun, because while I generally just say Indian among fellow Indians, in this part of the country, it's too easy to get confused with Eastern Indians.

Sometimes we just say "feather not dot" (which works for me even though my tribe actually has an offensive word we call other tribes who wear feathers in their hair...) ;)


I think the real problem is the notion that the way we talk to our PoC friends should be any different than the way we talk to our white friends. What we say should only differ based on the individual, not her skin color.

I think oftentimes it is based on the individual, and it just so happens that many PoC's happen to share similar experiences, so the way we talk to them as individuals or act around them may differ from non-PoC's.

For example, when doing anything with my Indian friends, I have to remember to adjust all plans for Indian time.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 04:33 AM
...

For example, when doing anything with my Indian friends, I have to remember to adjust all plans for Indian time.

Ha! One side of the family does Indian time. Dad's side? German. Oh, that was a good mix ;) ;)

kuwisdelu
01-05-2012, 04:34 AM
One side of the family does Indian time. Dad's side?

When I've had to explain it a few times, I tell people it's the opposite of a New York minute.

I'm generally pretty punctual, and most of my Indian friends are still okay about it. But It can be particularly problematic when some Indians are worse about it than others... Good god, I'm never traveling with a certain someone from Acoma again. (Apologies anyone from Acoma who may be reading this.) He was even worse than my mom.

Hint: When I finally wake you up and you're hungover and wrapped naked in your comforter and tell you we need to get to the airport because our flight is leaving soon, "but we still have a whole hour" is not an acceptable response.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 04:36 AM
When I've had to explain it a few times, I just tell people it's the opposite of a New York minute.

:D

Perks
01-05-2012, 04:42 AM
I'm a little uncomfortable with the title of the thread. I think a lot of our conversations straddle a line, but I don't really like the generalization, even if it is the title of the video.

Comedy is a hinge for throwing things wide open. Or at least wider and open-er.

On the other hand, if it said, "Shit Black Girls Say To White Girls" I don't know if I would squirm.

As it is, I'm not bothered at a little squirming if the payoff is good and funny and totes a point like all the best humor does.

HorrorWriter
01-05-2012, 04:46 AM
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ylPUzxpIBe0)made me laugh out loud. :ROFL: Check it out and tell me there's no truth to it.

It reminded me of the time I was at a office Xmas party at a bar and I was talking with a White female and this dude comes up, drunker than hell, butts in and tells the lady, "Oh, you're just talking to him because he's Black and he's got a big one. Right? RIGHT?"

Well, I don't like to brag, but....:cool:

The video was funny and truthful. Speaking from experience. Oh, and I'm gonna need you not to brag. ;)

thebloodfiend
01-05-2012, 05:09 AM
I'm a little uncomfortable with the title of the thread. I think a lot of our conversations straddle a line, but I don't really like the generalization, even if it is the title of the video.

Same here.

It reminds me of the humor in Easy A and Glee.

Sadly, I've heard a lot of it before, though, albeit, from white Hispanics.

Exhibit A)

J: Have you seen The Help?

Me: Um. No. Why? I read the screenplay and kind of hated it.

J: I just thought it was so sad. *goes on tangent about how much she loved the movie*

Me: *wondering why J randomly brought this up, then guesses it's probably because I'm black, though there's a slight chance that I'm wrong*

MacAllister
01-05-2012, 05:13 AM
There are those things that we all recognize as memes, if we're part of a subculture that's experienced marginalization.

In my own case, it's that every social function I've EVER attended that involves straight people -- whether work-related or not -- inevitably means some tipsy heterosexual is going to ask me "so...what do two women DO together, anyway...you know...I mean...in bed..." followed closely by "well...but...have you ever, y'know, BEEN with a man?"

So part of what makes this so funny is the recognition of a near-universal set of face-palm moments, even though the actual details of the whacked-out crap people spout off may differ.

thebloodfiend
01-05-2012, 05:16 AM
There are those things that we all recognize as memes, if we're part of a subculture that's experienced marginalization.

In my own case, it's that every social function I've EVER attended that involves straight people -- whether work-related or not -- inevitably means some tipsy heterosexual is going to ask me "so...what do two women DO together, anyway...you know...I mean...in bed..." followed closely by "well...but...have you ever, y'know, BEEN with a man?"

So part of what makes this so funny is the recognition of a near-universal set of face-palm moments, even though the actual details of the whacked-out crap people spout off may differ.

I can imagine that that's uncomfortable. I can't say I've haven't heard my relatives voice the same things aloud, though. I feel embarrassed for them.

MacAllister
01-05-2012, 05:22 AM
I can imagine that that's uncomfortable. I can't say I've haven't heard my relatives voice the same things aloud, though. I feel embarrassed for them.

Well, it's uncomfortable the first dozen times or so. Then it's just sort of eye-rolling, after that.

It's similarly uncomfortable and funny for me to realize that I know people who hit all those memes in the video NT linked, though, as for you to know you've got relatives who say those same things.

missesdash
01-05-2012, 05:28 AM
When I've had to explain it a few times, I tell people it's the opposite of a New York minute.

I'm generally pretty punctual, and most of my Indian friends are still okay about it. But It can be particularly problematic when some Indians are worse about it than others... Good god, I'm never traveling with a certain someone from Acoma again. (Apologies anyone from Acoma who may be reading this.) He was even worse than my mom.

Hint: When I finally wake you up and you're hungover and wrapped naked in your comforter and tell you we need to get to the airport because our flight is leaving soon, "but we still have a whole hour" is not an acceptable response.

Black people call that "CP time," aka, colored people's time. If you're having a party at 8pm, You put 5pm on your invitations so the black people show up on time. My korean friend said it's the same with Koreans.

French people are also always late, but they expect you to be on time, so it's not quite the same

Perks
01-05-2012, 05:33 AM
inevitably means some tipsy heterosexual is going to ask me "so...what do two women DO together, anyway...you know...I mean...in bed..." That right there is a person with a little tiny imagination.

MacAllister
01-05-2012, 05:44 AM
That right there is a person with a little tiny imagination.

Over the years my response has varied between "Anything we want to" and "All of the really fun parts, with none of the awkward and icky stuff" depending on audience.

I grew up with extended southern family who were poor and rural and racist as all hell, and in some ways I think the overt racism is easier to deal with than the more subtle crap, prefaced with "I'm not racist or anything, but..." or followed up with a pseudo-self-conscious little giggle and "Wait...is that racist?"

Those statements seem to me to be rhetorical flourishes that mean, however accidentally, "I know damned well I'm saying something racist, but I expect you to rise above your race and laugh along with me, or at least answer my question because I'm entitled to say this, because between you and me, we both know *I* mean more" and that's insidious and nasty, even though it's probably not deliberate or carefully plotted out.

poetinahat
01-05-2012, 05:46 AM
Black people call that "CP time," aka, colored people's time. If you're having a party at 8pm, You put 5pm on your invitations so the black people show up on time. My korean friend said it's the same with Koreans.

French people are also always late, but they expect you to be on time, so it's not quite the same
When I lived in Boston, I gave a party and told people it started at eight, because I wanted to go out afterward.

Not a soul showed up before ten. Because that's Standard Party Time.

So, in my experience, Bostonians and New Yorkers arrive at Standard Party Time. Australians may be a little late, but their thing is more the noncommittal RSVP - "I'll be there" means a fifty-fifty chance they'll attend.

Ohioans are on time, though. :e2shrug:

NicoleJLeBoeuf
01-05-2012, 05:49 AM
Black people call that "CP time," aka, colored people's time. If you're having a party at 8pm, You put 5pm on your invitations so the black people show up on time. My korean friend said it's the same with Koreans.
My religious community calls this "Pagan Standard Time." If the local circle says they're having their community ritual at 8 PM or their Pagan Pride Picnic at noon, it's best to arrive then, sure, but not to be surprised if things don't get underway for another hour and a half after that.

Haggis
01-05-2012, 05:57 AM
Ohioans are on time, though. :e2shrug:
That's because there's nothing else to do in Ohio. :evil

Medievalist
01-05-2012, 06:04 AM
Those statements seem to me to be rhetorical flourishes that mean, however accidentally, "I know damned well I'm saying something racist, but I expect you to rise above your race and laugh along with me, or at least answer my question because I'm entitled to say this, because between you and me, we both know *I* mean more" and that's insidious and nasty, even though it's probably not deliberate or carefully plotted out.

Is this racist? [sexist/homophobic, etc] . . .
Not to be racist but . . .
It's only right you should know . . .

Are all prefaces to things that people should not say and know they should not say.

They are all also said by individuals who feel socially superior to the person to whom they are speaking.

If you catch yourself starting to use one, just stop and think.

poetinahat
01-05-2012, 06:11 AM
That's because there's nothing else to do in Ohio. :evil

Partial credit, my northern friend. But, also, Ohioans have manners. :thankyou:

Haggis
01-05-2012, 06:18 AM
Partial credit, my northern friend. But, also, Ohioans have manners. :thankyou:
I see you've never been to Columbus on a football Saturday. :)

eta: with Michigan tags on your car.

Devil Ledbetter
01-05-2012, 06:19 AM
It's so few words that that view always strikes me as just plain stubborn. Imho, of course.
Was my statement somehow offensive? If so, I apologize, and I hope you will illuminate as to why it was offensive, because I honestly didn't intend it that way.

I guess I don't understand what's "stubborn" about talking to individuals as individuals?

Jehhillenberg
01-05-2012, 07:46 AM
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ylPUzxpIBe0)made me laugh out loud. :ROFL: Check it out and tell me there's no truth to it.

It reminded me of the time I was at a office Xmas party at a bar and I was talking with a White female and this dude comes up, drunker than hell, butts in and tells the lady, "Oh, you're just talking to him because he's Black and he's got a big one. Right? RIGHT?"

Well, I don't like to brag, but....:cool:


I thought this was hilarious. Man, she's talented. :)

Mara
01-05-2012, 08:57 AM
Was my statement somehow offensive? If so, I apologize, and I hope you will illuminate as to why it was offensive, because I honestly didn't intend it that way.

I guess I don't understand what's "stubborn" about talking to individuals as individuals?

Taken literally? Nothing wrong with it. But that's one of those terms like "some of my best friends are black" that's often associated with other problems.

A lot of times, people who say that don't understand cultural differences, and just assume their own culture is "normal" and the default. They say "treat everyone as an individual" but subconsciously mean "treat everyone as a straight white cisgender Christian." Because that's seen as the default "normal" that everyone should be treated as, even if some things that are okay in that culture can be offensive if said to people from other cultures.* (And sometimes, in some situations, members of minority groups will also ignore majority cultural traits and say stuff that's offensive, but it's a little less common simply because more people learn what the majority culture's taboos are.)

Basically, there are some things that won't bother a white person but might really bother a black person, and vice versa. Same for gay and straight, cis and trans, etc. It's good to treat individuals like individuals, but remember that individuals are affected by cultures.

*I could give examples but I'd rather not.

Devil Ledbetter
01-05-2012, 02:56 PM
Mara, thank you for explaining.

To clarify, I was not saying I treat everyone as white by default. I do understand that racial/cultural indentity is part of the individual and that "ignoring" is hurtful.

alessahinlo
01-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Black people call that "CP time," aka, colored people's time. If you're having a party at 8pm, You put 5pm on your invitations so the black people show up on time. My korean friend said it's the same with Koreans.

It's the same with Filipino people a lot of the time as well. My family was always considered a little oddball because we were always punctual. ("Oh, them? They're always early!" Note: We arrived at the time listed on the invite.)

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 05:28 PM
Was my statement somehow offensive? If so, I apologize, and I hope you will illuminate as to why it was offensive, because I honestly didn't intend it that way.

I guess I don't understand what's "stubborn" about talking to individuals as individuals?

I didn't think it was offensive, just stubborn. But maybe I misunderstood what you were referring to.


Mara, thank you for explaining.

To clarify, I was not saying I treat everyone as white by default. I do understand that racial/cultural indentity is part of the individual and that "ignoring" is hurtful.

OK, here's the quote:

I think the real problem is the notion that the way we talk to our PoC friends should be any different than the way we talk to our white friends. What we say should only differ based on the individual, not her skin color.

And that came right after we were all discussing those words like nigger. I must not understand how the comment relates to words like that. Or maybe it doesn't and you were speaking more generally, and that's where I'm misunderstanding! That would make sense.

Skin color, sexual orientation, etc, do come into the equation heavily with words like those, imho. But I'm talking about the speaker's race, orientation, etc., mainly.

Also, I think if I used certain words I use around some groups around the others, the right meaning would be lost. It's OK to use different speech around different groups, I think.

Devil Ledbetter
01-05-2012, 06:01 PM
I didn't think it was offensive, just stubborn. But maybe I misunderstood what you were referring to.



OK, here's the quote:

I think the real problem is the notion that the way we talk to our PoC friends should be any different than the way we talk to our white friends. What we say should only differ based on the individual, not her skin color. Ah. I see what I did there. I said "it shouldn't be any different." Yes, I can see how that's problematic because it does sounds like the common assertion "I treat everyone exactly the same; I just ignore cultural differences." That's not what I meant. So I did communicate poorly there.


And that came right after we were all discussing those words like nigger. I must not understand how the comment relates to words like that. Or maybe it doesn't and you were speaking more generally, and that's where I'm misunderstanding! That would make sense.I wasn't making a comment on the discussion of the N word at all. I don't ever use it, no matter whom I talking to. It's just not I word I'm comfortable saying.


Skin color, sexual orientation, etc, do come into the equation heavily with words like those, imho. But I'm talking about the speaker's race, orientation, etc., mainly.

Also, I think if I used certain words I use around some groups around the others, the right meaning would be lost. It's OK to use different speech around different groups, I think.This is what I meant by "individuals." My bi-racial, young adult nieces think "purple drank" said with a southern accent is hilarious. But I would never assume their high-hilarity at the term is common to everyone who shares their cultural background.

As for "Indian time" that is something that could be okay to say depending on your relationship. I would expect if I said that to a native American friend who was late, it would be highly offensive. I just wouldn't go there.

Thank you for taking the time to reply and clarify what the problem was with my statement. I think I get it now, but if I'm still off-base, let me know.

backslashbaby
01-05-2012, 06:06 PM
No, no, we're good :) And I agree it is very individual that way.

Kitty27
01-05-2012, 06:58 PM
I have DIED at this vid. Just died. But it's oh so true.

I once worked for an elderly lady on Tybee Island. She touched my hair and quite bluntly asked me if I had any white blood because my hair was so long. Her daughter was horrified and couldn't stop apologizing. The lady was from a different era and though I was ticked,I didn't go off. Now there's no excuse for walking up and touching folks hair and the like.


With regards to nigger,Blacks use "nigga" and no,other POC don't get a pass to say it. But it depends on the region. Up north,Puerto Ricans and Dominicans say it all the time. I have a friend from LA and she says it's sometimes said by Mexicans.

Try that here in the South and there will be blood. It is NOT allowed.
There is also a generational difference with regards to its usage. My parents generation don't care for it. At all. But mine used it quite a bit and see nothing wrong with it. My son's generation practically uses it as a term of endearment. But certain rules will never change about who can and can't say it.

This video was so true. Sometimes,we say things and don't realize how they sound. Even the most well meaning people will say some crazy things. One of my dear friends is so conscious of this that she monitors nearly everything she says. I have to say to her"Jen,just breathe. Tis okay."

Jcomp
01-05-2012, 07:12 PM
There is also a generational difference with regards to its usage. My parents generation don't care for it. At all.

Going to disagree here. They may not care for it now since it's out in the open, but that's the same generation that gave us movies like Sweet Sweetback and countless other "blaxploitation" flicks where black folks calling each other n-bombs are featured openly in the marketing. I remember Sanford and Son featuring a scene where Fred drops the n-bomb twice. I remember hearing my parents use the variation "nigga-ro". Robert Guillame and Morgan Freeman explicitly talk about being the "Head Nigga in Charge" in Lean on Me. You can go back and look at old comedians, writings, some of the more vulgar tunes from the early days of blues, etc., and see that the word's usage among black folks certainly predates our generation. It didn't seem to receive a tremendous backlash among older black folks until it became known to the public at large that we use it this way. It's as if they wanted it to remain a semi-secret within the black community.

aruna
01-05-2012, 08:08 PM
I have DIED at this vid. Just died. But it's oh so true.

I once worked for an elderly lady on Tybee Island. She touched my hair and quite bluntly asked me if I had any white blood because my hair was so long. Her daughter was horrified and couldn't stop apologizing. The lady was from a different era and though I was ticked,I didn't go off. Now there's no excuse for walking up and touching folks hair and the like.






I go to an old folks home every day and there's this old lady there who has slight dementia. Every time she sees me she looks at my hair with deep admiration and tells me how beautiful it is. Sometimes she strokes it lovingly. Yesterdayy I was having a conversation with one of the attendants and this lady came up to me, and interrupted the conversation with, Excuse me, I just want to ask you something. When I asked what she said, "where did you get that beautiful hair from?"
I laughed and said, form my parents. I don't the even notices anything about skin colour. She just sees my hair! She's a real sweety.

Kitty27
01-05-2012, 09:15 PM
Going to disagree here. They may not care for it now since it's out in the open, but that's the same generation that gave us movies like Sweet Sweetback and countless other "blaxploitation" flicks where black folks calling each other n-bombs are featured openly in the marketing. I remember Sanford and Son featuring a scene where Fred drops the n-bomb twice. I remember hearing my parents use the variation "nigga-ro". Robert Guillame and Morgan Freeman explicitly talk about being the "Head Nigga in Charge" in Lean on Me. You can go back and look at old comedians, writings, some of the more vulgar tunes from the early days of blues, etc., and see that the word's usage among black folks certainly predates our generation. It didn't seem to receive a tremendous backlash among older black folks until it became known to the public at large that we use it this way. It's as if they wanted it to remain a semi-secret within the black community.



True that,Jcomp. But my stepdad absolutely hates the word. Even now,when we gather at my parents house,he doesn't allow it to be said.

I agree about the semi secret thing.

Stew21
01-05-2012, 09:34 PM
Going to disagree here. They may not care for it now since it's out in the open, but that's the same generation that gave us movies like Sweet Sweetback and countless other "blaxploitation" flicks where black folks calling each other n-bombs are featured openly in the marketing. I remember Sanford and Son featuring a scene where Fred drops the n-bomb twice. I remember hearing my parents use the variation "nigga-ro". Robert Guillame and Morgan Freeman explicitly talk about being the "Head Nigga in Charge" in Lean on Me. You can go back and look at old comedians, writings, some of the more vulgar tunes from the early days of blues, etc., and see that the word's usage among black folks certainly predates our generation. It didn't seem to receive a tremendous backlash among older black folks until it became known to the public at large that we use it this way. It's as if they wanted it to remain a semi-secret within the black community.
I find this really interesting, mostly because of an experience I had many years ago with it. Iworked with a girl who got quite offended when, in a conversation about music, I mentioned I had just bought a Curtis Mayfield boxed set. She squinted her eyes at me and said, "Curtis Mayfield? Why the hell you listening to him? He's supposed to be our secret." It seemed that merely my mention of him had broken into a locked room. I was raised on a lot of different kinds of music. I like Curtis Mayfield. I didn't understand what I had done exactly. I apologized for the offense. She sort of laughed at me, but it wasn't a real laugh; it was however, very obvious I had made her uncomfortable. So hearing this really makes sense to me.

Kitty27
01-05-2012, 09:52 PM
I go to an old folks home every day and there's this old lady there who has slight dementia. Every time she sees me she looks at my hair with deep admiration and tells me how beautiful it is. Sometimes she strokes it lovingly. Yesterdayy I was having a conversation with one of the attendants and this lady came up to me, and interrupted the conversation with, Excuse me, I just want to ask you something. When I asked what she said, "where did you get that beautiful hair from?"
I laughed and said, form my parents. I don't the even notices anything about skin colour. She just sees my hair! She's a real sweety.


I have a friend from India who has really pretty hair. Her and my other friend,who is Black,joke all the time that if she ever needs rent,she's going to sell her hair because us Black girls love that Indian Remi hair!

That old lady was a fool with it. Every day,she'd ask about my hair.

Jcomp
01-05-2012, 10:07 PM
I find this really interesting, mostly because of an experience I had many years ago with it. Iworked with a girl who got quite offended when, in a conversation about music, I mentioned I had just bought a Curtis Mayfield boxed set. She squinted her eyes at me and said, "Curtis Mayfield? Why the hell you listening to him? He's supposed to be our secret." It seemed that merely my mention of him had broken into a locked room. I was raised on a lot of different kinds of music. I like Curtis Mayfield. I didn't understand what I had done exactly. I apologized for the offense. She sort of laughed at me, but it wasn't a real laugh; it was however, very obvious I had made her uncomfortable. So hearing this really makes sense to me.

Interesting. I think among some black people, there's an idea and a resentment for people of other races appropriating "our" culture while still seeming to want to keep a certain distance, or sometimes even clutching onto a subtle disdain. Jazz and blues are things that white people are seen as being really into now. Other races adopt "our" slang into their everyday vernacular, adopt "our" fashion, etc. I still (jokingly) maintain that the damn "Boot Scoot Boogie" is just a country-fied "Electric Slide" with no torso movement.

Of course, many of these are things black people have abandoned as well. The girl you mention here was probably equally upset about the fact that you could poll 100 random black people age 18 - 29 right now and just a fraction of them would be able to name one Curtis Mayfield song, and some wouldn't have a clue as to who the hell he is. Here's this legendary, transcendent musician / social activist who was so important to black people during a time of social unrest and upheaval, and yet there's this growing number of younger black people who are barely aware of his impact, if at all. And then there you are, a white person buying the box set and appreciating the music, perhaps even appreciating the message. But there wasn't anyone else present to lash out at in the moment, so you caught the brunt of it.

Of course, this is one of those things that goes beyond black & white and applies to various cultural groups.

mirandashell
01-05-2012, 10:27 PM
Excuse the derail but this really hit me......


There are those things that we all recognize as memes, if we're part of a subculture that's experienced marginalization.

In my own case, it's that every social function I've EVER So part of what makes this so funny is the recognition of a near-universal set of face-palm moments, even though the actual details of the whacked-out crap people spout off may differ.

I'm vegetarian and have been for 31 years. And I still get asked the stupidest questions.
Like 'do you eat eggs?'
'No.'
'But they're not meat.'
'No, but they are a meat product.'
'No they're not! They're diary.
'Ermmmm... ok then'
:e2smack:

Wayne K
01-05-2012, 10:45 PM
This story about Richard Pryor (http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/04/27/black-is-beautiful/) is something I always think about, whenever a discussion comes up specifically about the word nigger, but about reclaiming language and in-group lexicons, as well:



I don't know quite where to even start thinking about all the subtleties and convolutions that this story implies about culture, values, and language -- and I tie myself into Gordian knots over it in pretty short order...but it's a valuable anecdote for me, in terms of providing an entry-point into at least trying to grasp various sides of the conversation.
I think of this video (http://youtu.be/JZCS5I80X-8) when I hear it. Two people making opposite arguments and you agree with both

When you consider the awesome power of the word, there's Lenny Bruce http://youtu.be/SOnkv76rNL4

Like any other hate word, I hate the word Nigger, but respect a word that holds such power. It's like Cancer, or Terrorist. You can probably throw Muslim in there for a large part of the country

Stew21
01-05-2012, 11:13 PM
Interesting. I think among some black people, there's an idea and a resentment for people of other races appropriating "our" culture while still seeming to want to keep a certain distance, or sometimes even clutching onto a subtle disdain. Jazz and blues are things that white people are seen as being really into now. Other races adopt "our" slang into their everyday vernacular, adopt "our" fashion, etc. I still (jokingly) maintain that the damn "Boot Scoot Boogie" is just a country-fied "Electric Slide" with no torso movement.

Of course, many of these are things black people have abandoned as well. The girl you mention here was probably equally upset about the fact that you could poll 100 random black people age 18 - 29 right now and just a fraction of them would be able to name one Curtis Mayfield song, and some wouldn't have a clue as to who the hell he is. Here's this legendary, transcendent musician / social activist who was so important to black people during a time of social unrest and upheaval, and yet there's this growing number of younger black people who are barely aware of his impact, if at all. And then there you are, a white person buying the box set and appreciating the music, perhaps even appreciating the message. But there wasn't anyone else present to lash out at in the moment, so you caught the brunt of it.

Of course, this is one of those things that goes beyond black & white and applies to various cultural groups.

She (J) tried very hard to educate some of the more ignorant of the white girls in the group who worked together. She was very patient with that, as well, though there was plenty of eyerolling going on too, especially with one particular girl (M) who couldn't comprehend anything that wasn't white upperclass. M was raised stinking rich and isolated and was very much a product of that upbringing and insulted each of us on some level because she viewed everything and everyone around her as less than. (ex: my blue-collar union working family in a small rural river town was so far out of her grasp that she would ask me, "well what did you eat there?" I would mess with her and be sure to list all kinds of wild game. She thought i was a beverly hillbilly.) --> momentarily, sidetracked to the conversation about lots of people being lots of kinds of stupid and/or offense to others, sorry.

Back to Mr. Mayfield, I admit, after I apologized and J only sort of accepted it, that I did resent the hell out of that. It's just music, I thought; those other girls don't even know who he is and just sort of watched us talk about it. I didn't get it. I found it odd that of the 5 or 6 of us in that music conversation, I was the only one to know who Curtis Mayfield was (let alone buy and listen to his music), and I was the one to take the heat instead of the girls who were clueless.

So now you've got me thinking that yes, J did prefer their distance (and in the rich girl's case, the absolute arrogance and stupidity) from her culture over what she perceived as my fringe knowledge of it.

Thanks for that. after all these years later, I still wondered what was so offensive. I think I get it now.

rugcat
01-05-2012, 11:41 PM
The girl you mention here was probably equally upset about the fact that you could poll 100 random black people age 18 - 29 right now and just a fraction of them would be able to name one Curtis Mayfield song, and some wouldn't have a clue as to who the hell he is.One of my heroes. A great man as well as a great musician, and died too young.

Of course, I'm older, a musician, and cut my musical teeth in Chicago, so that's a different thing. Instead of the Beatles and the Stones, we listened more to groups like The Impressions. Keep on Pushing, It's All Right, etc.

Here's a wonderful later performance of his best known song:

People Get Ready (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQqTxK7VhSk)

S. Eli
01-06-2012, 12:17 AM
One of the best things about this video, I think, is that there is no ill intent. I know that when I get to school, I'll show my roommate (who is white), and the most she'll say about it is "God, do I sound like that....have I ever said that....lol I KNOW I've never said that" And then she'll ask me if I'm offended by questions like that and then I'll get all happy because that's how I get when there's dialogue about race relations :D

nighttimer
01-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Going to disagree here. They may not care for it now since it's out in the open, but that's the same generation that gave us movies like Sweet Sweetback and countless other "blaxploitation" flicks where black folks calling each other n-bombs are featured openly in the marketing. I remember Sanford and Son featuring a scene where Fred drops the n-bomb twice. I remember hearing my parents use the variation "nigga-ro". Robert Guillame and Morgan Freeman explicitly talk about being the "Head Nigga in Charge" in Lean on Me. You can go back and look at old comedians, writings, some of the more vulgar tunes from the early days of blues, etc., and see that the word's usage among black folks certainly predates our generation. It didn't seem to receive a tremendous backlash among older black folks until it became known to the public at large that we use it this way. It's as if they wanted it to remain a semi-secret within the black community.


True that,Jcomp. But my stepdad absolutely hates the word. Even now,when we gather at my parents house,he doesn't allow it to be said.

I agree about the semi secret thing.

Following up on what Mac said about Richard Pryor who used the pejorative to get us laughing and then thinking, one of his collaborators was the great and underrated Paul Mooney. If you've watched Sanford and Son or Pryor's classic Saturday Night Live performance or the Dave Chapelle Show, you've heard a joke written by Mooney. Including jokes where "nigger" can be breathed in like oxygen.

But Mooney like Pryor before him doesn't seem to find as much mileage to be squeezed out of "nigger" as there once was. The cathartic moment for Moody was the notorious Michael Richard meltdown and that is when he decided to ditch the N-word.

The interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8FOVz0AAEc) is from 2008 and go to about the 5:00 mark for Mooney's musings. I'm part of the group that doesn't use the word and hates to hear it, but I'm not going to try and wag my finger at folks younger than me that do. I only hope they hip themselves to how vile and worthless a word it is before seeking to "reclaim" it.


I have a friend from India who has really pretty hair. Her and my other friend,who is Black,joke all the time that if she ever needs rent,she's going to sell her hair because us Black girls love that Indian Remi hair!

That old lady was a fool with it. Every day,she'd ask about my hair.

My 17-year-old daughter was making Xmas cookies with her cool White girl gal pal from school and she says something she has to put up with is White girls touching her weave and telling her how long and pretty it is.

What irks her is White girls say they don't get weaves. White girls get extensions.

My daughter replies, "No bitch, if you can pull it out it's a WEAVE!"


Like any other hate word, I hate the word Nigger, but respect a word that holds such power. It's like Cancer, or Terrorist.

Which should mean it's a bad word that nobody likes or wants, right? :rolleyes:

aruna
01-06-2012, 01:01 PM
I cannot even write that word. Sorry.

Jehhillenberg
01-06-2012, 01:09 PM
The interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8FOVz0AAEc) is from 2008 and go to about the 5:00 mark for Mooney's musings. I'm part of the group that doesn't use the word and hates to hear it, but I'm not going to try and wag my finger at folks younger than me that do. I only hope they hip themselves to how vile and worthless a word it is before seeking to "reclaim" it.

Couldn't agree more.

And weaves, extensions...same difference to me. One just has more negative connotations associated with it. *sigh*


I cannot even write that word. Sorry.

Completely understandable.

Besides the linked interview, I haven't seen or heard about Paul Mooney since watching Chappelle's show. He doesn't sugar coat squat. :)

Sydneyd
01-06-2012, 01:13 PM
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ylPUzxpIBe0)made me laugh out loud. :ROFL: Check it out and tell me there's no truth to it.

It reminded me of the time I was at a office Xmas party at a bar and I was talking with a White female and this dude comes up, drunker than hell, butts in and tells the lady, "Oh, you're just talking to him because he's Black and he's got a big one. Right? RIGHT?"

Well, I don't like to brag, but....:cool:

I have to say, I understood the intended humor involved in the video but could not relate to it in a I-so-do-that-sort of way. I wonder now why that is.

mirandashell
01-06-2012, 05:12 PM
What's the negative connotation about a weave?

dolores haze
01-06-2012, 05:45 PM
Has anyone else seen the Chris Rock documentary 'Good Hair?' (http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2009-10-22-good-hair-main_N.htm) I thought it was absolutely fascinating.

Jehhillenberg
01-06-2012, 06:23 PM
What's the negative connotation about a weave?

See? I didn't state which had the negative connotation. Soooo there you go. I can't believe I'm linking to wikipedia and they have it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_weave). :rolleyes: Even the overall tone says something. Or maybe I'm just reading too deep.

But to try to answer your question, mirandashell, it just seems like "weave" is looked down upon compared to "hair extensions". Nighttimers' anecdote kinda depicted that, to me at least. "Weave" is more associated with the black community. Things like that are joked about now, lightening the conversation.

:)


@Dolores, I still haven't seen Good Hair, but I soo want to.

Lyra Jean
01-06-2012, 07:54 PM
I had a friend in college and he was black and he asked me why I didn't use his lingo. He used the N word and other various words which to me seemed okay for a black person to use but not a white person. So I told him, if I saw you and said, "what up n-?" you would laugh in my face because there is no way I could say it and not look totally ridiculous. If I made a mistake and it wasn't you I'd probably get the crap beat out of me. I went to college in South Carolina.

There was one time in college I talked about Black History month and I had to say before y'all start hating me let me explain. There were about 20 of us and I think three of us including myself was white. 3/4 of us were not from South Carolina. Then I asked who did everyone study during Black History month from K-12 and we all named the same 6-8 people. I asked isn't there more to Black History Month than these people as important as they are? I was a History major and it irked me that I had to learn about the same 6 people over and over again during Black History Month.

I used to think that black couldn't get sunburned and I used to be one of those people who would ask if their hair was real. Only because I would ask how do you get your hair to do that because doesn't even hold a curl unless you dump three cans of hairspray on it and I wanted to know the secret of getting your hair to do what you want.

mirandashell
01-06-2012, 08:02 PM
See? I didn't state which had the negative connotation. Soooo there you go.

Ermmmm... hang on a second... yes you did. The way you phrased your statement definitely gave me the impression it was the weave that had negative connotations. cos I didn't know that. It's not something we have here.

So don't put your expectations on me, thank you very much.

Actually it wasn't just you, it was both parts of the conversation.

First this:

What irks her is White girls say they don't get weaves. White girls get extensions.

My daughter replies, "No bitch, if you can pull it out it's a WEAVE!"


Then this:


And weaves, extensions...same difference to me. One just has more negative connotations associated with it. *sigh*




So... even though I have knowledge of history and cultural mores and all that stuff, to get this reference I must be unconsciously racist because I'm white.

Purleese.....

Jcomp
01-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Wait, who specifically called you "unconsciously racist" again?

Jehhillenberg
01-06-2012, 08:17 PM
Ermmmm... hang on a second... yes you did. The way you phrased your statement definitely gave me the impression it was the weave that had negative connotations. cos I didn't know that. It's not something we have here.

So don't put your expectations on me, thank you very much.

Actually it wasn't just you, it was both parts of the conversation.

First this:


Then this:




So... even though I have knowledge of history and cultural mores and all that stuff, to get this reference I must be unconsciously racist because I'm white.

Purleese.....

No, no, no, no. Not the intent, mirandashell. My post wasn't hostile and certainly wasn't directed at you in an accusing way, but I'm sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. I didn't explicitly state "weave" had the connotations, but yes, I did imply it. If anyone had have asked, I would've given my same reply. Please, please do not jump to conclusions.

Again, I'm NOT attacking you. Why did you take it there? -- the bolded part above. Sorry if I offended you. If I could find the right smiley to demonstrate, it'd be here.

;)

mirandashell
01-06-2012, 10:01 PM
I was thinking about this on the way home. And you're right, I did jump the wrong way. My apologies.

I should have thought about it a bit more before I replied.

I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Which I guess is easy to do with this subject, unfortunately.

So I'm sorry. Can we start again?

mirandashell
01-06-2012, 10:17 PM
I've just worked out what it is....

It's this smilie: :rolleyes: I go straight into defensive mode when I see it.

Next time, I'll take a deep breath and reread what it's next to......

I hate that smilie.

thebloodfiend
01-06-2012, 10:21 PM
I've just worked out what it is....

It's this smilie: :rolleyes: I go straight into defensive mode when I see it.

Next time, I'll take a deep breath and reread what it's next to......

I hate that smilie.

This one too? :rolleyes

But I love that smilie.

And, as a black person, I'd also like to add that I have/had no idea about the negative connotations of a weave. I've never had one, or a perm. But I've heard plenty of jokes about them on Glee and various other places. I don't understand them.

mirandashell
01-06-2012, 10:23 PM
That one's not so bad.

It's the insufferable superior expression of the first one that pushes my buttons.

backslashbaby
01-07-2012, 07:33 AM
I only knew a weave was considered bad because I was accused of having one very often! LOL, by people nearby... you know those snarky comments teenagers throw loudly enough to be heard? Weave came up a lot with my hair. Long and curly at the time.

Medievalist
01-07-2012, 08:27 AM
I cannot even write that word. Sorry.

It's . . . interesting from a linguistic POV because, unlike a number of words that are restricted in similar ways--

Nigger was unilaterally universally unequivocally pejorative (to varying degrees) until the very late twentieth century.

The first instance I can find, in print, where it might not have been 100% pejorative or clearly indicative of a lower social class is 1954.

While I get that for many people of later generations than I under specific conditions, it's "OK," I have always stopped people from using it even in the classroom, unless they were specifically looking at texts by, f'rinstance, Twain, Audre Lord, or Alice Walker. I don't see it, really, as possible to "reclaim" in the same way as other words (specifically dyke, or queer) have been, because it was never, as far as I can determine, a neutral word.

I note that every single time I've taught Huckleberry Finn, I've had one or more students complain to the Dean about "that word."

missesdash
01-07-2012, 08:54 AM
It's . . . interesting from a linguistic POV because, unlike a number of words that are restricted in similar ways--

Nigger was unilaterally universally unequivocally pejorative (to varying degrees) until the very late twentieth century.

The first instance I can find, in print, where it might not have been 100% pejorative or clearly indicative of a lower social class is 1954.

While I get that for many people of later generations than I under specific conditions, it's "OK," I have always stopped people from using it even in the classroom, unless they were specifically looking at texts by, f'rinstance, Twain, Audre Lord, or Alice Walker. I don't see it, really, as possible to "reclaim" in the same way as other words (specifically dyke, or queer) have been, because it was never, as far as I can determine, a neutral word.

I note that every single time I've taught Huckleberry Finn, I've had one or more students complain to the Dean about "that word."

Kind of reminds me of my tendency to use vulgar terms of endearment for my friends. But now that I think about it, among the people close to me (not all of them, but those with similar backgrounds and close to my age) there really is nothing I can say that will offend them, as long as I use the right tone of voice.

So "Go die, c*nt," in a deadpan isn't considered offensive. I can't imagine my mom or grandmother ever spoke to their friends in that way.

aruna
01-07-2012, 10:52 AM
[QUOTE]While I get that for many people of later generations than I under specific conditions, it's "OK," I have always stopped people from using it even in the classroom, unless they were specifically looking at texts by, f'rinstance, Twain, Audre Lord, or Alice Walker. I don't see it, really, as possible to "reclaim" in the same way as other words (specifically dyke, or queer) have been, because it was never, as far as I can determine, a neutral word.
Exactly. There's nothing to reclaim.


I note that every single time I've taught Huckleberry Finn, I've had one or more students complain to the Dean about "that word."

I would find it very, very hard to even use it in a novel; to put it into the dialogie of a racist character. I've never done it. I suppose I should, one day, if I write about those issues....

nighttimer
01-07-2012, 01:58 PM
Has anyone else seen the Chris Rock documentary 'Good Hair?' (http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2009-10-22-good-hair-main_N.htm) I thought it was absolutely fascinating.

It definitely is and here's a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCEX34-1o6M).

The part where the Coke can dissolves under the relaxer (sodium hydroxide) is both funny and terrifying at the same time.

For my Caucasian counterparts whom may not understand why little Black girls get perms at tender ages, I would suggest sitting in a room with one when her mommy is trying to comb her hair. It's such a hell-raising experience either you or the kid will run out of the room. Maybe both.

We could do an entire thread about how Black folks deal with their hair issues, but I'll let India. Arie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5jIt0f5Z4&ob=av2e) tell it for me:

Little girl with the press and curl
Age eight I got a Jheri curl
Thirteen when I got a relaxer
I was a source of so much laughter
Fifteen when it all broke off
Eighteen when I went all natural
February 2002 I
Went on and did what I had to do (oh)
Because it was time to change my life
To become the woman that I am inside
'97 dreadlocks all gone
I looked in the mirror for the first time and saw that
HAIR...

[Chorus]
I am not my hair
I am not this skin
I am not your ex-pec-tations no no
I am not my hair
I am not this skin
I am a soul that lives within

[India.Arie]
Good hair means curls and waves (no)
Bad hair means you look like a slave
At the turn of the century
It's time for us to redefine who we be
You can shave it off
Like a South African beauty
Got it on lock
Like Bob Marley
You can rock it straight
Like Oprah Winfrey
If its not what's on your head
It's what's underneath and say
HEY....

[Chorus]
I am not my hair
I am not this skin
I am not your ex-pec-tations no no
I am not my hair
I am not this skin
I am a soul that lives within



I would find it very, very hard to even use it in a novel; to put it into the dialogie of a racist character. I've never done it. I suppose I should, one day, if I write about those issues....

If your character is going to be authentic you have to allow them to speak authentically. When Martin Scorsese drops a N-bomb in Good Fellas it seems real. Saying "African-American" would not in this case.

But when it's gratuitous as Quentin Tarantino punks Samuel L. Jackson's Jules Winfield in the Jimmy Situation scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihH_-O7ev2o) from Pulp Fiction, it rings false and played for shock value.

I like the movie, but the phoniness of that scene stops me from loving it. :Soapbox:

aruna
01-07-2012, 02:24 PM
It definitely is and here's a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCEX34-1o6M).

The part where the Coke can dissolves under the relaxer (sodium hydroxide) is both funny and terrifying at the same time.

That is just awful. I can still remember the smell of it. I had my hair chemically relaxed once, and straightened with a hot comb once, when I was in my teens. And then I moved on to a wig (photo coming up). Even though I had what my grannie called "good hair", ie not too crinkly. Weirdly, as I grew older it trelaxed by itself; in my avatar that's natural.

This is me at 16 with WIG. I would not go anywhere without that WIG.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h266/arunadasi/guyana/img008_page1_image1-1.jpg



If your character is going to be authentic you have to allow them to speak authentically. When Martin Scorsese drops a N-bomb in Good Fellas it seems real. Saying "African-American" would not in this case.
It hasn't come up yet. If it does, I will certainly use it. Like I used the F-word once in a novel, though I never use it in real life.

mirandashell
01-07-2012, 08:58 PM
This reminds me of something from my childhood. I had a friend who envied me my long silky hair. She used a hot comb on hers (this was the days just before relaxer and jheri curls). I think we were about 12 or 13 years old.

We were in her bedroom one day doing girlie stuff. She was combing my hair and decided to pin it up in a style she often wore. But me being white means my hair doesn't usually stay where it's put. Which is why hairspray and mousse and hair gel were invented.....

She ended up getting so frustrated with it she shouted at me 'why won't your hair do as it's told? Mine does! I can put mine anywhere and it will stay put!'

'I don't know. That's just the way it is. I wish it would stay where it's put. It would be a lot easier!'

'Hmmm', she said. 'I think I prefer my hair.'

aruna
01-07-2012, 09:23 PM
After watching that video (and I'll try to watch the whole thing later on) I have to ask -- what happened???? Have black women gone backwards, or what?
I remember so clearly the years late 60's early 70's when we all went natural. OK, some of those Afros were extreme. But I still think a short neat one that caps the head looks great on just about anybody.
I had an Afro for several years. It was about 4 inches long. I later had it short and kept it short; I've always left my hair natural since I "woke up".

Not straightening your hair was so much a part of the black awakening movement back then that it's quite alarming to see how far the trend has gone in the opposite direction.

mirandashell
01-07-2012, 09:34 PM
I've noticed that before now. I hardly ever see a black woman with natural hair these days. They all have their hair relaxed and straightened and pulled to some fantastic shapes. But never natural.

Flicka
01-07-2012, 09:40 PM
Watching this, I so feel I'm not an American. I just can't relate to most things in this video. Not because 'omg, we're so superior & would never say that'. I'm sure we're just as idiotic here, but I think the idiotic things we say are different due to cultural and historic differences. Here the big divide is immigrant/native and stupid things people say here are usually related to that (like telling my sister's friend with the super-Swedish name who was adopted from Ethiopia when she was one month old that 'OMG, you speak great Swedish despite being African!' Happens ALL the time). And I could easily make up a 'shit blonde girls say to Muslim girls'.

Randomly, I remember how happy my sis' friend was when salons run by Africans began to pop uphere in the mid-90s. Before that, no hairdresser she'd ever met had any experience of her type of hair.

missesdash
01-07-2012, 10:06 PM
I've noticed that before now. I hardly ever see a black woman with natural hair these days. They all have their hair relaxed and straightened and pulled to some fantastic shapes. But never natural.

It depends on where you are, but in the US we've managed to remove a lot of stigma attached to both hair choices. It's like women who make the choice to stay home (instead of work) now. It's not about the choice, it's about not feeling pressured and have the freedom to act either way.

My hair is "natural" but that doesn't make me superior to someone who uses a relaxer. Also, to me, a black woman who uses a hot comb to straighten her hair or a gets a Dominican press (another heat strengthening method) still has "natural" hair. I consider natural a lack of extensions or chemicals that alter texture.

But in New York I saw tons of more natural hair than I do in Paris. I rarely see it in Paris. African immigrants here still see it as a class issue. If they have "natural hair" they think everyone will assume they can't afford to take care of their hair.

Oddly enough, I see a lot of really bad and cheaply done weaves/braids. So it's all very silly to me.

missesdash
01-07-2012, 10:11 PM
Watching this, I so feel I'm not an American. I just can't relate to most things in this video. Not because 'omg, we're so superior & would never say that'. I'm sure we're just as idiotic here, but I think the idiotic things we say are different due to cultural and historic differences. Here the big divide is immigrant/native and stupid things people say here are usually related to that (like telling my sister's friend with the super-Swedish name who was adopted from Ethiopia when she was one month old that 'OMG, you speak great Swedish despite being African!' Happens ALL the time). And I could easily make up a 'shit blonde girls say to Muslim girls'.

Randomly, I remember how happy my sis' friend was when salons run by Africans began to pop uphere in the mid-90s. Before that, no hairdresser she'd ever met had any experience of her type of hair.

I would sell my soul for a loctician in Paris! Ugh. I've done a terrible job of upkeep but I don't have any options here.

mirandashell
01-07-2012, 10:12 PM
It depends on where you ate, but in the US we've managed to remove a lot of stigma attached to both hair choices.

I'm in England. In a big city.



My hair is "natural" but that doesn't make me superior to someone who uses a relaxer. Also, to me, a black woman who uses a hot comb to straighten her hair or a gets a Dominican press (another heat strengthening method) still has "natural" hair. I consider natural a lack of extensions or chemicals that alter texture.


I wasn't commenting on superiority of any kind. I was just agreeing with Aruna as to how much it has changed cos I'm old enough to remember the days she was talking about. And yeah, I was only counting the use of chemicals as unnatural.


African immigrants here still see it as a class issue. If they have "natural hair" they think everyone will assume they can't afford to take care of their hair.

I don't think it's for that reason here. I think it's more about fashion for the younger generations. For the older it could be. I don't really know. I don't know any young black women well enough to ask.

missesdash
01-07-2012, 10:25 PM
@miranda I know you weren't commenting on superiority. It was more a response to the general debate of "natural hair vs processed hair."

And if you're only counting the use of chemical as unnatural, you won't always be able to tell the difference between heat straightened and chemically straightened. So you might see a lot more natural hair than you think. We've learned a lot of healthier and more efficient ways to keep our hair straightened.

mirandashell
01-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Really? Thinking about it, you could be right with a lot of the older women.

But a lot of young uns who have the front plastered to their head and the back curled and pinned and upstanding and shiny as you like... that's chemicals.

It often looks great but it can't possibly be healthy.

Not that I'd say anything. I did some mad stuff with my hair when I was their age.

missesdash
01-07-2012, 11:10 PM
Then it depends on what you mean by chemicals. Wax, pomade, gel, etc. You'd be surprised what can done with black hair without harsh chemicals.

When black people say "chemically treated" we definitely mean relaxers. Someone plastering their hair to their forehead with tons of grease, as strange as it is, can still be done with natural hair.

But I do agree a lot of younger people use chemicals in their hair. Hair dye and bleaching is another big one (although that's across races). They don't generally think in terms of "is this damaging to my hair?"

Hell, in the end it's just hair. If it falls out, it'll grow back. If it doesn't grow back, you can buy a wig. It's all so inconsequential.

backslashbaby
01-08-2012, 01:09 AM
The styling tool options do seem to have grown wonderfully, speaking only as someone on the edge of knowledge of it. I've always checked out the 'Black' section for conditioners, gels, etc, because my hair has a similar texture. There are so many more products than in the 80's, that I've noticed.

Pantene makes an awesome line, if you can find it. That's certainly new. Smart of major manufacturers to finally realize the market out there!

Vedren
01-17-2012, 09:01 AM
That's the same reason it's difficult to watch. I imagine there's a lot of truth. For someone to touch a black woman's hair and say, "Oh, but it's so nappy" and the slavery comment, I don't know, my stomach sank.

You must know with being black sometimes when they white friends, people get comfortable with comments and say things, when they don't know any better, that are out of the ordinary. Never happened to me, but I've heard of things.

escritora
01-17-2012, 09:12 AM
You must know with being black sometimes when they white friends, people get comfortable with comments and say things, when they don't know any better, that are out of the ordinary. Never happened to me, but I've heard of things.

I don't doubt it. That was the point of my post.

Vedren
01-17-2012, 09:16 AM
I don't doubt it. That was the point of my post.

Oh!

:D

kuwisdelu
01-17-2012, 09:22 AM
The hair issue is interesting to me, because it's rather similar with native communities.

Back during the days of government schools and their cultural indoctrination, one of the major things was forcing the captive native students to cut their long hair.

These days, lots of my cousins have buzz cuts out of choice. (Actually, an interesting addendum to this is that a lot of them also copy "black" pop culture, i.e., rap, baggy clothes, etc.)

When I decided to stay in school and go for my PhD rather than look for a job with my MS, I decided to grow my hair out like I've always wanted to (but always got fed up with during that annoying in-between phase).

Now it's a strong way that I identify with my culture. My hair used to be much shorter (e.g., my avatar) compared to now (not shown) but it's usually been longer than the average, accepted "male" length. (Ugh.) And now it's part of what makes me feel Zuni, even though most of my cousins have forsaken that part of our culture.

I don't know what will happen in the future, when I need to get a "real" job, and will be pressured to cut it for those stupid corporate reasons. (Speaking of which, why the fuck is that still an issue?) My hair is important to me. Even though it's not what my cousins associate with being Indian anymore, as someone who's never lived on the rez, who's half-blooded, and who's surrounded by non-native cultures, it's part of what I use to identify myself.

I don't want to let it go.

Vedren
01-17-2012, 09:36 AM
What is "MS"?

kuwisdelu
01-17-2012, 10:32 AM
What is "MS"?

Masters of Science.

backslashbaby
01-17-2012, 04:53 PM
Don't you dare cut it, Kuwi, unless you absolutely have to :(

eta: and to be optimistic, you might not have to cut it. My brother worked at Johns Hopkins (with a team of researchers), and he just braided his in back or wore a ponytail.

Devil Ledbetter
01-17-2012, 05:51 PM
I don't know what will happen in the future, when I need to get a "real" job, and will be pressured to cut it for those stupid corporate reasons. (Speaking of which, why the fuck is that still an issue?) You may not need to.

The company I work at is sort of progressive, but not extremely so. We have three gentlemen with very long hair. One is part native American and grows his beautiful hair out, donates it to Locks for Love, then grows it back. Another has extremely long hair and an even longer beard, and is considered the hardest working, smartest and most reliable person in his department. The third is in a "white collar" professional position and the fact that he can never seem to get here on time is a much larger issue for his manager than his hair, which is not an issue at all.

These guys are in their 20s, 30s and 50s. Nobody is on their cases about their hair.

Our current and previous company presidents both had long hair earlier in life. The current prez used to follow Phish around on tour.

crunchyblanket
01-17-2012, 05:55 PM
I wouldn't worry too much, Kuwi. I work in a pathology lab, my hair is currently super short and bright pink. People are gradually coming round to the idea of non-typical hairstyles. My boss doesn't care, as long as my hair is clean and tidy.

defyalllogic
01-17-2012, 07:55 PM
Hi, I'm Black. I'm a lady. I wrote a long post.... :)

I thought the video was funny and funny because it's true. And true because that's not what people who are genuinely racist say, It's what your white friends will say to you because they want to be able to relate to you. I probably say weird things to white friends about sunburn and casseroles... It's just nice to know that there is a common experience sometimes, like having the same job or car or step mother.

On "nigga," I don't say it and I think it sounds stupid when people do. It sounds like some kind of false bravado. I see it more as a culture thing than a color thing. If there's a gang (meant literally) of Hispanics, whites, and blacks and they're all saying "nigga this and that," it all sounds the same to me. And they all sound like people I wouldn't really want to talk to.

On things people say that they don't realize might be offensive: "You're so lucky, you're tan year round." Fuck you. I'm black, say it again and say "black" instead of "tan." See how much sense you're making then...
Because my hair is natural and big, people loooooove to just get up in it. It's worse when it's the in-laws. "I love you're hair, it's so exciting (really?). I wish I could just have such thick curly hair, it would be so much easier." I like to explain to people that It's not even remotely easy to maintain my hair. Then i get worried that I must be giving off the impression that I don't actually comb my hair...

On hair. Oh, dear god. years of chemical burns and sitting in hood salons (literally, a salon set up in a space being rented on the ground floor of a building in the projects) where you wait all day just to get treated like shit... I went natural. Sadly, I went back to relaxer-- but the home kits. Once I got the relaxer on a chunk of hair and in flopped down in my eye. Yup, I got relaxer (sodium hydroxide) in my eye. I rushed and washed it out and had my husband (Asian-white) read the paper and to see if there was anything else I should do.
Well, that man and his morbid curiosity, he kept reading and he was straight up horrified. "Why would anyone ever put this near their bodies?!"
"To straighten their hair..."
"It says to cover your hair but don't let it touch your scalp or skin... how is that even possible."
"Well, you do. just not for long... because then you'd get burns. Remember in college I use to say my mom burned me with the relaxer?"
"Those are chemical burns! Like acid. It's literally acid."
"So, you won't let me relax our kids hair?"
"Why do you hate out future kids? I'm tempted to keep you away from my wife..."
I decided to invest in heavy conditioners (Paul Mitchell is AMAZING) and instead of going "natural" with softened roots, actually just do it.
I straightened my hair with a blow dryer and iron the other day and Husband was very pleased. He said the house smelled like burned hair for hours but it's worth it over the alternative.

Perks
01-17-2012, 08:30 PM
On things people say that they don't realize might be offensive: "You're so lucky, you're tan year round." Fuck you. I'm black, say it again and say "black" instead of "tan." See how much sense you're making then...
Thanks for being frank. This thread is really interesting and now I have a related question that hopefully doesn't make me seem dim. I'm pale. Very pale. I often admire darker skin. To me, it's less about looking 'tan' (which is, like you said, a silly thing to say to a black person) as it is about camouflaging fatigue. I just never think well-pigmented people look as tired as I occasionally do, and I don't believe it's because they aren't just as tired.

Is admiring people's skin just probably better something kept more-or-less within your own shade, because it will always sound patronizing? I only ask, because I have a tenet to live by - never withhold a compliment. I always like to hear that I have nice skin - which it is when I'm not draggin' ass. I figure other people would like to hear it, too, but in some cases, it might seem more like drawing an unwanted line than paying admiration to a nice facial feature.

Vedren
01-17-2012, 11:30 PM
Hi, I'm Black. I'm a lady. I wrote a long post.... :)

I thought the video was funny and funny because it's true. And true because that's not what people who are genuinely racist say, It's what your white friends will say to you because they want to be able to relate to you. I probably say weird things to white friends about sunburn and casseroles... It's just nice to know that there is a common experience sometimes, like having the same job or car or step mother.

On "nigga," I don't say it and I think it sounds stupid when people do. It sounds like some kind of false bravado. I see it more as a culture thing than a color thing. If there's a gang (meant literally) of Hispanics, whites, and blacks and they're all saying "nigga this and that," it all sounds the same to me. And they all sound like people I wouldn't really want to talk to.

On things people say that they don't realize might be offensive: "You're so lucky, you're tan year round." Fuck you. I'm black, say it again and say "black" instead of "tan." See how much sense you're making then...
Because my hair is natural and big, people loooooove to just get up in it. It's worse when it's the in-laws. "I love you're hair, it's so exciting (really?). I wish I could just have such thick curly hair, it would be so much easier." I like to explain to people that It's not even remotely easy to maintain my hair. Then i get worried that I must be giving off the impression that I don't actually comb my hair...

On hair. Oh, dear god. years of chemical burns and sitting in hood salons (literally, a salon set up in a space being rented on the ground floor of a building in the projects) where you wait all day just to get treated like shit... I went natural. Sadly, I went back to relaxer-- but the home kits. Once I got the relaxer on a chunk of hair and in flopped down in my eye. Yup, I got relaxer (sodium hydroxide) in my eye. I rushed and washed it out and had my husband (Asian-white) read the paper and to see if there was anything else I should do.
Well, that man and his morbid curiosity, he kept reading and he was straight up horrified. "Why would anyone ever put this near their bodies?!"
"To straighten their hair..."
"It says to cover your hair but don't let it touch your scalp or skin... how is that even possible."
"Well, you do. just not for long... because then you'd get burns. Remember in college I use to say my mom burned me with the relaxer?"
"Those are chemical burns! Like acid. It's literally acid."
"So, you won't let me relax our kids hair?"
"Why do you hate out future kids? I'm tempted to keep you away from my wife..."
I decided to invest in heavy conditioners (Paul Mitchell is AMAZING) and instead of going "natural" with softened roots, actually just do it.
I straightened my hair with a blow dryer and iron the other day and Husband was very pleased. He said the house smelled like burned hair for hours but it's worth it over the alternative.

Nice post! I didn't get offended by the video. I actually commented with the video maker and her bf of 15yrs is white and they have an understanding. I think it's hilarious. People are just too quick to shoot in the word "Racism" when they have no other way to explain the emotional effect certain topics, comments, statements have on them. They need a way to justify their argument. But yes, some things can be said from another race that may be offensive without them trying to be. What do you do? Correct them on the spot. Don't let things build up and then blow up.

I'm pretty outspoken of girl and I have a friend who is white and something was said around her from my other black friend and I didn't think anything of it, and she did. What did she do? She pulled me aside later on, since me and her are closer and let me know how she felt about the comment and I explained how it was "A black thing" and no harm was intended, but being able to empathize quite well, I was able to understand her side and agree that maybe it shouldn't have been said.

See how simple communication is? :)

Vedren
01-17-2012, 11:36 PM
Thanks for being frank. This thread is really interesting and now I have a related question that hopefully doesn't make me seem dim. I'm pale. Very pale. I often admire darker skin. To me, it's less about looking 'tan' (which is, like you said, a silly thing to say to a black person) as it is about camouflaging fatigue. I just never think well-pigmented people look as tired as I occasionally do, and I don't believe it's because they aren't just as tired.

Is admiring people's skin just probably better something kept more-or-less within your own shade, because it will always sound patronizing? I only ask, because I have a tenet to live by - never withhold a compliment. I always like to hear that I have nice skin - which it is when I'm not draggin' ass. I figure other people would like to hear it, too, but in some cases, it might seem more like drawing an unwanted line than paying admiration to a nice facial feature.

I don't really get your question. But as far as being tanned all year round, I don't find that offensive at all if someone says that to me. In my opinion if you have a problem with that comment it's because you have a problem with your complexion. if you like your skin then how can that be taken the wrong way?

White person: You're lucky, you have tan all year round.

Me: (Smiles) You're crazy! And trust me, even more tanned in the hotter seasons. (LOL) But thanks!

No offense would be taken on my part.