Another Advantage of a Pro Publisher [moved from self-publishing]

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MichaelZWilliamson

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It seems some site is set up with downloads of my novels, with covers, blurbs, the works. "We are proud to present this book as a free download." Off to the side, they have ads, clicks, and promotional links for themselves, which I assume means they're deriving indirect profit from doing no work beyond reposting mine.

Now, I have no problem if people share my stuff by email or P2P. It's not worth the time to complain about, and if their time is worth less than the $6 a download costs, they have my sympathy, and my wishes that they enjoy the stories. They can pay for some future piece.

But, archiving my stuff on a site, advertising it, giving it away and deriving profit from the process crosses a line somewhere.

I responded in vigorous fashion. I sent...an EMAIL! [which took less time to write than this post]

The publisher has unleashed a slavering pack of vicious attack rottweilawyers. I don't have to pay them, I don't have to follow up, and I don't have to be the bad guy. I just have to sip this beer and watch the hilarity ensue.

If it accomplishes nothing, I'm out nothing. If it accomplishes something, I'm ahead, and still out nothing.
 

JinxVelox

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Alas, nobody is exempt from book piracy. Glad you emailed and told them to take down your books. Been there, done that. Good luck!
 
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Terie

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This is actually a thread about piracy, and has nothing whatsoever to do with self-publishing. Maybe a moderator should move it?
 

Kriven

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Actually, it's about how having a larger publishing house gives you a little more fire to spit at pirates than you would had you self-published.
 

Terie

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Actually, it's about how having a larger publishing house gives you a little more fire to spit at pirates than you would had you self-published.

It's still a thread about piracy, not self-publishing. Surely you don't think it's appropriate to start a separate thread for every little detail for which publishers do things for a writer that self-publishers have to do for themselves? People who are self-publishing don't need to be randomly told individual facts that are already well-known.

As far as I'm concerned, all this is is an attempt on the part of the OP -- who, as recently as yesterday, expressed other sarcastic sentiments about self-publishing -- to take another poke.

And it's not appropriate for this sub-forum.
 

Kriven

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The OP is definitely attempting to belittle self-publishing, I won't argue that.

But a thread about the piracy of self-published material (and how to avoid it) might yield some interesting opinions.
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Actually, I am not attempting to belittle self-publishing, seeing as I've done some over the years.

Also, Terie, if you take issue with something I say, I would prefer, "Mike, is this ___" rather than the third person approach. Thank you.

This is a legitimate problem a self-publisher will face--lawyers to deal with this type of thing are pricey, and the infringers* know it, which makes fighting them tougher.

If you believe it fits better elsewhere, I have no issue with a mod move.

*I prefer this term to "pirates," as I don't believe the term "piracy" accurately applies to the act in question.
 

mscelina

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Seeing as I get pissy when self-publishing threads end up in the e-publishing forum, I tend to agree with Terie, actually. Because to be QUITE frank, e-pirates are unlikely to pirate a self-published book. They aren't after unknown books, which, unfortunately, most self-publishing books are. But a book from a trade publisher like Baen or a well-known e-publishing house are different. Those are the books that people go to torrent sites and start thread about, and then the scurvy, scum-sucking IP thieves run off and gratify said wish.

Add to that as well the nearly complete ineffectiveness of emailed requests to remove the pirated book, the rapid switching up of domain hosts, and the third world ownership of many of those sites that stymies even DMCA notices, and it's fairly easy to see: if a publisher like Baen has difficulty in getting pirated material taken down, what possible recourse is a self-published author going to have?

Except, of course, that I seriously doubt any e-pirate is going to be interested in more than ten or fifteen self-published novels by previously unknown authors.

So ultimately, do I think this thread should be in a different sub-forum? Probably, because this isn't a problem most self-published authors will ever have to worry about.
 

Terie

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Actually, I am not attempting to belittle self-publishing, ...

I call BS on this. The title you gave this thread is 'Another Advantage of a Pro Publisher'. The subtext of that is 'Another Disadvantage of Self-Publishing'. And the bit quoted below is pretty obviously mild gloating:

I responded in vigorous fashion. I sent...an EMAIL! [which took less time to write than this post]

The publisher has unleashed a slavering pack of vicious attack rottweilawyers. I don't have to pay them, I don't have to follow up, and I don't have to be the bad guy. I just have to sip this beer and watch the hilarity ensue.



Also, Terie, if you take issue with something I say, I would prefer, "Mike, is this ___" rather than the third person approach. Thank you.

I don't much care about how you'd prefer for me to write, just as I'm sure you don't much care about how I or anyone else would prefer for you to write. It has always been my practice in posts, when speaking to another (as I was above in responding to Kriven) or when speaking to the thread-readers as a whole, to use 'the OP'. I'm not going to waste my energy worrying about how one person or another would prefer I write my posts. If you don't like how I write, please feel free to add me to your ignore list.
 

Old Hack

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Actually, I am not attempting to belittle self-publishing, seeing as I've done some over the years.

You might not have intended to belittle self-publishing by starting this thread in the self-publishing room, but I have to ask: what were you thinking this would achieve?

Also, Terie, if you take issue with something I say, I would prefer, "Mike, is this ___" rather than the third person approach. Thank you.

Ah, so we're now telling other members how to address us, are we? Excellent! Henceforth you shall address me as "Oh Great Scrumptious One".

This is a legitimate problem a self-publisher will face--lawyers to deal with this type of thing are pricey, and the infringers* know it, which makes fighting them tougher.

It's a legitimate problem which all publishers will have to face. It's not specific to self-publishing and so I have no idea why you began the thread here. More useful, perhaps, would have been some information on how self-publishers could effectively deal with the problems of piracy themselves. Don't you think?

If you believe it fits better elsewhere, I have no issue with a mod move.

How about a supermod move? Watch me. I can be reeeeeally funky when I get going.

*I prefer this term to "pirates," as I don't believe the term "piracy" accurately applies to the act in question.

When my husband dances I don't believe that the term "dancing" accurately applies to the act in question. And yet when I describe his dancing to my friends that's the term I use so that everyone else knows what I'm talking about.

Let's not start using new terms just because we don't like the old ones. It causes confusion and is rather arrogant.

Now. Everyone please put your seatbelts on because this thread is going to whoosh its way into a new room. If I've aimed it right, that new room might be the Round Table. If I've not, you could all end up in Tech Help. Try not to get disorientated when you leave the thread. And if the bickering continues in the new room, this thread shall be closed. Thank you.
 

shaldna

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Piracy happens. Sadly. and it can happen to anyone.

But piracy isn't the only issue that can expensive, what about plagiarism?

Court cases are expensive, and many authors simply couldn't afford to take that action. Having a publisher take that action obviously takes the financial strain off the author, something that self published authors don't have to fall back on unless they are in a personal financial siutation which enables them to fund any such legal action.

However, having the backing of a publishing house doesn't diminish the levels of stress etc involved for the author, which I suspect is the same across the board.
 

Alitriona

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Except, of course, that I seriously doubt any e-pirate is going to be interested in more than ten or fifteen self-published novels by previously unknown authors.

From what I've seen recently(so purely observation and opinion, since I've never thought to look into it much) while chasing up illegal downloads of my books to report to my publisher, this is changing. Piracy seems to be affecting many self-published writers and small pubbed I follow on twitter. Maybe it's higher in YA and that's why I noticed. One self-published book I read and then saw pirated was 99cent to buy, honestly 99 cent. If someone would rather turn to piracy than pay 99cent what hope there for higher priced ebooks, even self-published ones, to avoid it in the future.
 

veinglory

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That seems to be predicated on an assumption that authors are third-party or self-published exclusively. IMHO it is books that have that status. I see my self-published book on file-sharing sites right next to my third-party published books.
 

Phaeal

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The only true hope for eradication of this problem is for people to realize they are not speshul snowflakes entitled to the free enjoyment of work they didn't do.
 

seun

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The only true hope for eradication of this problem is for people to realize they are not speshul snowflakes entitled to the free enjoyment of work they didn't do.

So you're saying the problem is never going away?
 

MichaelZWilliamson

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Very well, Oh Great Scrumptious One, if that's your request, I don't mind complying. Though my point was that I prefer to be addressed directly, rather than royally. Obviously, I have no control over how others act, so I phrased it as a request.

Quite clearly, if there's an advantage one way, there's a disadvantage the other way. I understood that was the point of this forum. Otherwise, shouldn't we say that Tate Publishing and PublishAmerica are just as good as any other house, and there's no difference between Ellora's Cave and Penguin?

I have self-pubbed before and intend to do so again. Some projects are better suited to it, for a number of reasons. There are disadvantages also, and yes, having someone else's lawyers deal with jerks, even if unsuccessfully, is an advantage over doing so out of pocket.

Rather than gloating over the self-pubbed, I'm enjoying the response, even if it's ineffective, that some jerk is getting on my behalf.

It's possible I didn't present it in the preferred manner of this forum. I don't spend a tremendous amount of time hanging out, but prefer to write and smith. I didn't find an obvious place to put the comment, it seemed like a valid enough subforum, and I have no problem with it being relocated if this is deemed better.

No harm, no foul, sorry to have ruffled feathers.

That said, if a simple internet post can ruffle that many feathers, I really wonder how some people handle editors and critics. Yes, that was a jab. It also may be worth a different discussion.

FYI, I regard any professional writer as a professional, regardless of whom they sell through. I'm friends with ghostwriters, work for hire writers, romance, horror, mainstream and SF writers, writers of men's adventure, some who are self-pubbed, comic artists, all kinds.

So, no, I'm not looking down on anyone. I can't help if some choose to believe they're looking up.
 

The Lonely One

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It actually seems like Michael is being the mature one, taking all these snarky comments in stride and responding rather calmly. Kudos.

There must have been some conversation I missed for everyone to be so damn aggressive in here. Is what's posted in the OP not an advantage of traditional publishing? What did I miss?
 

Terie

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It actually seems like Michael is being the mature one, taking all these snarky comments in stride and responding rather calmly. Kudos.

There must have been some conversation I missed for everyone to be so damn aggressive in here. Is what's posted in the OP not an advantage of traditional publishing? What did I miss?

Perhaps you missed that it was originally posted in the Self-Publishing subforum. The OP provided no constructive information to help self-publishers deal with possible e-piracy. Instead, he gloated about not having to do a particular one of the tasks a self-publisher has to do for him- or herself.

(ETA: I use the word 'gloat' because the post was made in the Self-Publishing subforum. Had the post been made in the Roundtable, where it is now, there wouldn't have been a problem.)

If you go look at the titles of other threads in that subforum, what you won't find is similar titles, such as

  • 'Another Advantage of Pro Publishing: You Don't Have to Design Your Own Cover'
  • 'Another Advantage of Pro Publishing: You Don't Have to Pay an Experienced Editor'
  • 'Another Advantage of Pro Publishing: You Don't Have to Market Your Book(s) to Bookshops Yourself'
  • 'Another Advantage of Pro Publishing: You Get Paid an Advance'
  • 'Another Advantage of Pro Publishing: You Don't Have to (any of a zillion other things you do have to do youself when you're self-publishing)'

If the OP had wanted to have a constructive conversation about how self-publishers can combat e-piracy, the language of that first post would've been very different.

That, of course, is why the thread was moved: it isn't about self-publishing; it's about e-piracy.
 
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Terie

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That said, if a simple internet post can ruffle that many feathers, I really wonder how some people handle editors and critics. Yes, that was a jab. It also may be worth a different discussion.

My response to your behaviour is in no way related to my professional conduct, and I find it laughable that you would try to make such a link. Go ahead: wonder all you like; I know the actual truth and have no need to defend myself.
 

areteus

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A rule I always follow here (and in other forums), if you are unsure about where a thread topic should fit or can't find a sub forum where it quite goes, always default to the 'playground board' - the general discussion board. Here, that forum is either the Office Party or the Roundtable. As it is, this one was moved to the Round Table.
 

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Very well, Oh Great Scrumptious One, if that's your request, I don't mind complying. Though my point was that I prefer to be addressed directly, rather than royally. Obviously, I have no control over how others act, so I phrased it as a request.

Now if you could please just inject a touch of obsequiousness into your tone we'll get along fine.

Quite clearly, if there's an advantage one way, there's a disadvantage the other way. I understood that was the point of this forum. Otherwise, shouldn't we say that Tate Publishing and PublishAmerica are just as good as any other house, and there's no difference between Ellora's Cave and Penguin?

Not really: because there's more than one factor to consider. If the ease with which trade-published authors dealt with piracy were the only point to take under consideration then yep, this would be an "either/or" situation. But it's far more complex than that.

Rather than gloating over the self-pubbed, I'm enjoying the response, even if it's ineffective, that some jerk is getting on my behalf.

I don't understand what you mean here. At least, I hope I don't understand what you mean. Do you care to elaborate?

That said, if a simple internet post can ruffle that many feathers, I really wonder how some people handle editors and critics. Yes, that was a jab. It also may be worth a different discussion.

Tread carefully, Michael. You really don't want to start taking potshots at AW's members. Not if you want to continue to be able to contribute here.

It actually seems like Michael is being the mature one, taking all these snarky comments in stride and responding rather calmly. Kudos.

There must have been some conversation I missed for everyone to be so damn aggressive in here. Is what's posted in the OP not an advantage of traditional publishing? What did I miss?

As others have already pointed out, starting this thread in self-publishing is what you're missing. That wasn't a good move on his part, but I hope he understands that now. And it would be good if we could move the discussion back on-topic now.
 

Alitriona

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I don't understand what you mean here. At least, I hope I don't understand what you mean. Do you care to elaborate?


I think he's trying to say the pirate is the jerk and he's enjoying the pirate getting a talking to from his publisher's lawyers, even if it's ineffective and that enjoying that he isn't paying or spending his time isn't gloating.

Micheal, I won't speak for anyone else on the thread, but my editors love me. I'm easily to get along with, I'm professional, I take criticism easily and I return work promptly. Likewise with reviewers, I can respect different opinions and often do around these parts especially.

What I don't do is send off links to piracy sites and announce I'm sitting back and rubbing my hands with glee while my publisher spend money, since the more money they spend on lawyers, they less profit they make and the less likely they are to spend money on little things like signing new writers, marketing, cover-art and royalties. The money to pay lawyers doesn't materialize out of thin air, it comes from profits. I like publishers who make profits since that benefits us writers in the long run.

Like everything else in Trade publishing verses Self publishing. The money to pay for everything comes from somewhere. In the case of Self-Publishers from their pocket up front and in Trade from the publishers pocket. That eventually impacts writers. So either way, the time you save is time the publisher spends, it's nothing to feel good about when that time could be spent on other things.
 

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It's probably because you didn't self publish but went with a traditional publisher that your book is being pirated. And I wouldn't worry about it. There is some evidence that piracy does not in fact contribute negatively to sales, and I share this opinion. Piracy, I believe, helps get your work out there, and, let's not forget, it's only the electronic version of the work that is pirated. I don't see why someone who has downloaded your ebook may not later purchase a paperback.

I respect, of course, your right to copyright. I just wanted to offer an alternative view.
 
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