Steam Engines vs. Electric Engines

Jamiekswriter · Dec 30, 2011

Hello all,

I've got a bunch of questions that I can't seem to find the answer to. If you could point me to a website or a book for more information that would be great.

To give you some background on my story. It's a post apocolyptical world, and a band of adventurers are trying to get to New York to California. The only power/electricity come from mutated humans called Techs. They can channel energy from the sun and the meteorized air through their bodies. Basically, human conduits of energy. However, this is very taxing to them and burns them out from the inside.

In the world, there is limited coal and some natural resources still left. So after rebuilding some Amtrak lines across the country, the adventurers are able to go short distances by steam train -- hoof it to the next terminal in another state -- then get back on a steam train until the tracks are too bad to go on -- then walk to the next one, wash rinse and repeat.

Can a steam engine run on wood or does the fire not get hot enough?

Can a steam engine run on an electric engine track? The bosses have several engines in several hubs, but Amtrak is mostly diesel and electric. Would the steam engines fit on the tracks?

Can a steam engine track be electrified or would it not matter because my Tech will fire up the electric engine rather than the track or the power grid?

The adventurers get into some deep doo doo and have to escape fast. My Tech risks her life to fire up an electric train and escape with her friends.

Is the electric train like an electric car where it gets "plugged in" and goes, or is the "third rail" electrified and that's what makes it go?

Obviously a steam engine will take a long time to get going because the coal has to be put in a boiler and it has to be hot enough to make steam, but can the electric engine start as fast as say a car being turned on?

Also, I've been on a few steam engines (Essex, CT has Thomas the tank engine come out every year

). Can two people stand between cars while it's trucking down the line? I wasn't allowed to move between the cars, but the conductors obviously do. There seems to be a small platform to stand on and there's gates on either side, but I wasn't sure if it would be a comfortable place to . . . ahem . . . it's an erotic story, so . . . you know? And if not a comfortable place, would it be out of the realm of possibility to do the wild thing on a moving steam train between cars?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

-- Jamie

jclarkdawe · Dec 30, 2011

Jamiekswriter said:
Hello all,

I've got a bunch of questions that I can't seem to find the answer to. If you could point me to a website or a book for more information that would be great.

To give you some background on my story. It's a post apocolyptical world, and a band of adventurers are trying to get to New York to California. The only power/electricity come from mutated humans called Techs. They can channel energy from the sun and the meteorized air through their bodies. Basically, human conduits of energy. However, this is very taxing to them and burns them out from the inside. But how much electricity are they generating? Enough to light a lightbulb? A house? A city block?

In the world, there is limited coal and some natural resources still left. So after rebuilding some Amtrak lines across the country, the adventurers are able to go short distances by steam train -- hoof it to the next terminal in another state -- then get back on a steam train until the tracks are too bad to go on -- then walk to the next one, wash rinse and repeat. Ah, the real railroads would love to be in these post-apocolyptical where tracks go bad so slowly. In the real world, heat and cold require that tracks receive constant maintenance. Trains are not very tolerant of imperfections. Personally I'd use a work vehicle rather than an engine. Amtrak would only likely to be a good source of equipment on the Northeast Corridor (Boston to DC). Any place else and freight equipment would be much more common.

China is in the process of getting rid of their last steam engines. My guess is that if steam were to be resurrected, it would look nothing like what we think about about as a steam locomotive. Going back to diesel-electric engines (which are what are commonly used today), they have one or more diesel engines which power an electric traction motor. Electric trains like Amtrak uses don't need the diesel engine to generate power, and rely on power lines. If steam were to come back, I'm guessing they'd use the same concept, with the steam engine being used to generate electricity for traction motors. It would probably be more efficient.

Can a steam engine run on wood or does the fire not get hot enough? Steam train engines have been run on coal, oil, and wood. Wood can be a relatively cheap and plentiful fuel source, counter-balancing the lower efficiency of wood as a heat source than coal.

Can a steam engine run on an electric engine track? Yep. The bosses have several engines in several hubs, but Amtrak is mostly diesel and electric. Would the steam engines fit on the tracks? As long as the gauge is the same. 4' 8.5"

Can a steam engine track be electrified or would it not matter because my Tech will fire up the electric engine rather than the track or the power grid? Diesel-electrics are used on electric track lines all the time. Basically without something to connect the electricity to the engine, the electricity is useless. This is the reason for overhead wire or a third-rail. The generators that power Amtrak are huge.

The adventurers get into some deep doo doo and have to escape fast. My Tech risks her life to fire up an electric train and escape with her friends. Electric trains, providing there is electricity, can be started fairly fast. But within yard limits, no matter how much you want to, you're probably not going to get up to 20 mph. Too many twists and turns (all those switches). And unless the track is well maintained, even in the open you're not going to be able to go too fast.

Is the electric train like an electric car where it gets "plugged in" and goes, or is the "third rail" electrified and that's what makes it go? Electric cars rely on lots of storage batteries. Trains don't have batteries. They need a third rail or overhead wire.

Obviously a steam engine will take a long time to get going because the coal has to be put in a boiler and it has to be hot enough to make steam, but can the electric engine start as fast as say a car being turned on? Pretty much. A steam engine could take several hours to get up to steam, if if was starting from a cold start.

Also, I've been on a few steam engines (Essex, CT has Thomas the tank engine come out every year ). Can two people stand between cars while it's trucking down the line? Yes. I wasn't allowed to move between the cars, but the conductors obviously do. There seems to be a small platform to stand on and there's gates on either side, but I wasn't sure if it would be a comfortable place to . . . ahem . . . it's an erotic story, so . . . you know? Depends upon how much they want to risk their lives. If you're holding on to the handrails, it's reasonably safe, but if your hands are occupied with other things, you're probably going to get thrown off sooner or later. And if not a comfortable place, would it be out of the realm of possibility to do the wild thing on a moving steam train between cars? Hell, people have done it all sorts of places. Can't say it's terribly exciting to me, but if it floats your boat ...

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you -- Jamie

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Aerial · Dec 30, 2011

Just tossing some tangential information out there:

(I know nothing about trains, so I won't even try to go there.)

But about the availability of power: It seems like your post-apoc world might have some ability to use or develop a biodiesel industry. Though the first major attempt at biodiesel has kind of collapsed, the idea itself is sound. The biggest advantage to biodiesels is that every current diesel engine on the planet (trucks, construction equipment, farming equipment, ships, automobiles, diesel generators, etc) can use these fuels without needing any engine modification.

We're currently on the cusp of being able to derive cost effective diesel fuel from algae, as well as a number of "junk" crops. (This isn't my area of expertise, so I can't give you a lot of specifics. I've just stumbled across a few articles about current research.) Whether biodiesel will ever effectively compete with other emerging energy sources is a different question, of course, which will determine whether we ever see it become a common fuel source.

However, depending on what your post-apoc world is like, I would think this might be one of the most successful power industries to develop in the aftermath.

Not directly related to anything in your post, but just something to consider for worldbuilding.

Oh, and as an alternative to taking trains across the country, many municipalities are starting to run electric busses and work vehicles. They're smaller vehicles than trains and presumably require less electricity to power them, and they have the advantage of not requiring rails. The Tech would have to be able to supply the correct voltage (probably 220V?) to charge the batteries, though.

Aerial

Jamiekswriter · Dec 30, 2011

Thanks Jack. Good food for thought.

Yeah the Techs can generate a lot of power depending on their level and skill. Most can generate enough to recharge a bunch of D cell batteries. The more talented and sought after can run a house for a few hours a day. The city block can be done if the Techs linked, but they would die trying to maintaining that level of power for any length of time.

So it sounds like the picture I have in my head with the 1800 railroad being built with the steam engine puffing behind the laborers would be a no-go with current trains. (And current, I mean 21st century American engines and the steam engines that are in service.)

I'll do some research on work vehicles and freight equipment and see if I can modify them to use in the story or maybe come up with a work around with an 1800 engine that miraculously escaped harm in the meteor strike and one of the bosses be a engineer/train expert. I'll call him Deus Ex Machina! Meh -- I'll keep working on that LOL.

Or maybe I'd be better off having the Tech's work the electric trains and ditch the steam entirely. Then I'd just have to figure out the track problem.

Anyway, a thousand thanks, Jack. I was banging my head against the wall about this for the longest time. I really appreciate your thoughts and comments.

-- Jamie

Jamiekswriter · Dec 30, 2011

OMG Ariel, that's brilliant!! And helpful!! That might solve my problem. There is an evil scientist branch in this story so that alternative fuel would really crank up the tension.

I could do that with a bit of restructuring. . . .

Now, I've just got to figure out the track maintenance issue and I'm good to go.

Thank you sooooo much for the biodiesel idea!

Aerial · Dec 30, 2011

Jamiekswriter said:
OMG Ariel, that's brilliant!! And helpful!! That might solve my problem. There is an evil scientist branch in this story so that alternative fuel would really crank up the tension.

I could do that with a bit of restructuring. . . .

Now, I've just got to figure out the track maintenance issue and I'm good to go.

Thank you sooooo much for the biodiesel idea!

You're welcome

And they don't have to take a train. They could drive cross country in an electric city bus or UPS truck

Of course, roads would then be the problem...

Aerial

Snick · Dec 30, 2011

Jamiekswriter said:
In the world, there is limited coal and some natural resources still left. So after rebuilding some Amtrak lines across the country, the adventurers are able to go short distances by steam train -- hoof it to the next terminal in another state -- then get back on a steam train until the tracks are too bad to go on -- then walk to the next one, wash rinse and repeat.

Can a steam engine run on wood or does the fire not get hot enough?

A steam engine can run on anything that will produce heat. The temperature of the fire ois not an issue,; the issue might be the volume of steam.

Can a steam engine run on an electric engine track? The bosses have several engines in several hubs, but Amtrak is mostly diesel and electric. Would the steam engines fit on the tracks?

The tracks are identical. In cases where the track has been electrified, the traks themselves have not been electrified; there is an additional "third rail" added that caries the juice.

Can a steam engine track be electrified or would it not matter because my Tech will fire up the electric engine rather than the track or the power grid?

Since the tracks are the same, the tech can juice up the engine and run it anywhere. You could even have your tech electrically heat the water in the boiled and run the steam engine.

The adventurers get into some deep doo doo and have to escape fast. My Tech risks her life to fire up an electric train and escape with her friends.

Is the electric train like an electric car where it gets "plugged in" and goes, or is the "third rail" electrified and that's what makes it go?

Third rail

Obviously a steam engine will take a long time to get going because the coal has to be put in a boiler and it has to be hot enough to make steam, but can the electric engine start as fast as say a car being turned on?

Some steam engines will startputting out power within seconds, because they have a standby condition in which the main heater is off, but the water in the heat transfer is hot and redy to be boiled. Also the heater section itself usually only holds a limited amount of water (a flash boiler), so a small amount is available for a fast start. That doesn't explain it well.

Also, I've been on a few steam engines (Essex, CT has Thomas the tank engine come out every year ). Can two people stand between cars while it's trucking down the line? I wasn't allowed to move between the cars, but the conductors obviously do. There seems to be a small platform to stand on and there's gates on either side, but I wasn't sure if it would be a comfortable place to . . . ahem . . . it's an erotic story, so . . . you know? And if not a comfortable place, would it be out of the realm of possibility to do the wild thing on a moving steam train between cars?

Whether someone can move between ars depends on where the doors are. There would be a small platform at the end of each car, and it's just a step over the coupling.

dirtsider · Dec 30, 2011

A steam engine does take a bit of time to heat the water coming from a cold start. Also, the water tank would need to be refilled fairly regularly. So if you're going to use steam trains, there would be water tanks stationed at regular intervals along the tracks.

Also, the steam trains would require some training to use. Of course you wouldn't need to take the tests required to get the licenses to use them these days.

You might want to look into New Hope Railroad (as in New Hope, PA) because they run steam engines as a tourist attraction.

jclarkdawe · Dec 30, 2011

I wasn't thinking through exactly what you meant about going between train cars. The old passenger cars had sort of a porch on each end, and were rather difficult to go from one car to another. Modern passenger cars are connected together and it's easy to get from one to another. And the passage way is enclosed to protect from the weather.

Freight cars used to have walkways so that the brakemen could get from one end of the train to another. But sometime back in the seventies, these walkways disappeared. There's a little platform on the end of a boxcar, which is where you stand when you apply what I'll call the 'parking brake.' This is the brake you set when the boxcar is being set out for loading or unloading. There's no way to get to this platform while the train is in motion, unless you're pretty close to insane.

One thing to understand here is that most of your readers won't have a clue. My book discussion group has had two books recently with trains in them. Both times I had serious problems with the writer, but no one else did. For example, most people won't even be aware that boxcars are not that common any more. Coal cars and vehicle cars (autoracks) are much more common.

And to start a train (as opposed to an engine), you have some time in the process. Basically the engineer hooks onto the train, air hoses are connected, and the engineer starts pumping up the air. The individual hand brakes on each car may need to be released as well. And you need to walk the train to make sure everything is connected. This can take from a few minutes if the air is already built up and the hand brakes are off, to over an hour for a long train.

Although trains are very efficient for moving large groups of people or freight, do you have enough to justify a train? Or even an engine? Personally, I'd go with a speeder. Take a look at http://www.railroaddata.com/rrlinks/Maintenance_of_Way/Motorcars_and_Speeders/, which actually links to a bunch of sites.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Jamiekswriter · Jan 3, 2012

Thanks so much for all your thoughts. Snick and Dirtsider, that's really useful stuff. Jack, I appreciate the link!

Xelebes · Jan 3, 2012

jclarkdawe said:
One thing to understand here is that most of your readers won't have a clue. My book discussion group has had two books recently with trains in them. Both times I had serious problems with the writer, but no one else did. For example, most people won't even be aware that boxcars are not that common any more. Coal cars and vehicle cars (autoracks) are much more common.

Would depend on where the trains are. Here, they're coal, log, and grain cars with flatcars for the seacans. Not many autoracks I have seen.

bernster · Jan 21, 2012

A 'post apocalyptic world' has access to existing technology but little capability. Makes for some interesting possibilities. Here's an idea: the coal is put in a coking oven to extract natural gas, which is then liquified. The train (or, hey, even a car) has a simple combustion engine that runs on natural gas.

debirlfan · Jan 23, 2012

I'm going to assume your heroes aren't actually building new equipment, but instead are trying to salvage some "pre-disaster" tech?

If they are determined to use a steam train, I think the only way they might get one is to scavenge/steal one from some place like Essex. However, a steam tractor is still going to leave you with the problem of broken tracks.

Let me run an alternate idea past you. How about using an antique steam tractor? Assuming you're not trying to move a whole bunch of people, I'm going to guess that you could use it to pull something that your other characters could ride in (a car or a small RV, maybe.) That gives you steam power but does away with needing tracks (if the tractor tows an SUV or the like and the driver was careful, you could probably get by without even a road.)

Try a google search on steam tractor images - there are folks who rebuild and collect these tractors, so it would probably be possible to hunt one down (or even several, if your party is larger.)

When they need to make a fast getaway, they could abandon the tractor and and move to an electric bus/car or something, or perhaps use electrical current to heat the water more quickly.

Jamiekswriter · Jan 24, 2012

Bernster and Debirlfan, those are both great ideas. I'm going to research them. I appreciate the leads!

Steam Engines vs. Electric Engines

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?

Aerial

There is no spoon.

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author

Aerial

There is no spoon.

Snick

dirtsider

Not so new, really

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

bernster

debirlfan

Jamiekswriter

USA Today Bestselling Author