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profen4
12-27-2011, 09:37 PM
Bit about the scene:

My MC is at an illegal shooting range (all manner of weapons are available - police issue, army issue, foreign police/army issue) ... etc. He's never fired a weapon, but he is pretending to know what to do.

Question 1:

What would someone who's never fired a gun before, do wrong when loading/preparing to fire a gun at a shooting range. Can you load the bullets wrong? insert the clip backwards? can you hold the gun in a way that you'd hurt your hand? It would be good if he broke a finger or really cut himself , or something (can a hand gun do that?)

Question 2:

Is there a gun type/model (any kind really, but smaller arms, hand-held, would be preferable), that is loaded, differently? In such a way that it wouldn't be obvious where the bullets go? I want him to, perhaps, choose his weapon and then stand there unsure where the bullets go.
quan ao nam dep (http://doxinh.com/danh-muc/quan-ao-thoi-trang/quan-ao-nam/) quan lot nu (http://doxinh.com.vn/danh-muc/do-lot-nu/quan-lot-nu/) do dung so sinh cho be (http://doxinh.vn/danh-muc/do-dung-cho-be/) vest cong so (http://trangbanbuon.com/danh-muc/thoi-trang-cong-so/vest-cong-so/) ao so mi nu (http://trangbanbuon.vn/danh-muc/thoi-trang-cong-so/ao-so-mi-cong-so/) trang phuc hoa trang (http://roses.vn/studio/cho-thue-trang-phuc/trang-phuc-hoa-trang/)
Thanks, and I apologise in advance if I've asked stupid questions. :)

Chase
12-28-2011, 12:17 AM
My expertise is limited to small arms. As a military and NRA instructor, I'm familiar with lots of ranges.

Since you want your range secret, for obvious reasons, it must be indoor rather than outdoor--although I've never encountered an "illegal" supervised indoor range. However, I've been to lots of "informal" ranges with no supervision out in the sticks, mostly at dump sites where shooters can plink at discarded appliances and old car bodies.

There are several ways novice shooters give themselves away, many of them dangerous to others, as well as painful to the shooter:

Waving the muzzle around and saying, "Aw, it ain't loaded" when someone complains is a big giveaway.

Novices shooting auto-loading pistols can hurt themselves by an unsafe two-hand hold where the sharp slide operates back to cut the supporting hand.

Revolvers often spit gas and lead where the cylinder face meets the forcing cone. A careless hand in this area just forward of the cylinder can be sliced like a knife.

I hope some of this very general information is helpful.

Chase

Cathy C
12-28-2011, 01:26 AM
You might consider having someone hand him an older single action revolver. It has to be loaded one bullet at a time and some models don't make the gate to load it very obvious. Also, it takes a little practice to hold the gun and turn the cylinder with one finger while loading with the other hand. It's amusing to watch someone who's doing it for the first time. ;)

ironmikezero
12-28-2011, 02:10 AM
I'd suggest keeping it simple - poor muzzle discipline (pointing the weapon in any direction other than downrange), and poor trigger discipline (placing the finger on the trigger at any time other when intending to fire).

Those are the two most blatant mistakes a novice can make. It immediately marks one as a serious risk and may precipitate a simultaneous (and potentially quite harsh) correction from any seasoned shooter.

Chase
12-28-2011, 02:41 AM
. . . poor trigger discipline (placing the finger on the trigger at any time other when intending to fire).

I can't agree more with Mike on this horror. It ranks high with stupid mistakes made by poor gun handlers. The worst of 'em think a trigger guard is some kind of handle and can't keep their nose-pickers out of it. Invariably when they fire an unintentional round, they say, "It just went off by itself."

profen4
12-28-2011, 03:40 AM
These are all great idea's guys - thanks so much!!!




My expertise is limited to small arms. As a military and NRA instructor, I'm familiar with lots of ranges.

Since you want your range secret, for obvious reasons, it must be indoor rather than outdoor--although I've never encountered an "illegal" supervised indoor range. However, I've been to lots of "informal" ranges with no supervision out in the sticks, mostly at dump sites where shooters can plink at discarded appliances and old car bodies.


In this particular WIP, the range is a place terrorists are trained.





Revolvers often spit gas and lead where the cylinder face meets the forcing cone. A careless hand in this area just forward of the cylinder can be sliced like a knife.

I hope some of this very general information is helpful.

Chase

I like that - is there one type of revolver that is known for doing that more than others? If possible, I'd like him, my MC, to chose the smallest gun available, thinking small = easy to handle.
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If you're right handed, where on the hand would the cut be?

Chase
12-28-2011, 04:04 AM
. . . is there one type of revolver that is known for doing that more than others? If possible, I'd like him, my MC, to chose the smallest gun available, thinking small = easy to handle.

Not so much the brand of revolver, per se, but the type of ammunition. Any .357 Magnum or above could generate enough side-spit to cut flesh. Many such calibers are available in small, light revolvers for concealed carry. One in which the timing (alignment of the cylinder to the rear of the barrel called the forcing cone) is loose or off will recoil hard and spit violently.


If you're right handed, where on the hand would the cut be?

If a right-handed shooter were to use an improper two-hand hold where the fingers or palm of the left hand wrapped around the front of the cylinder for support, then a painful slice would happen inside the left fingers or palm. Ouch! It hurts to even imagine such stupidity.

triceretops
12-28-2011, 04:25 AM
If it's a wheel gun, snapping the cylinder closed with a flick of the wrist.

Looking down the barrel after loading.

Failure to wear ear and eye protection

Firing at the hip

Trying to cram nine bullets into an eight-bullet magazine.

Failure to set the safety and having an accidental discharge.

Inserting the magazine by shoving it against his thigh or table bench.

Swinging the gun down from an overhead position then pulling the trigger. You'll see the cowbows in the very old westerns do this--firing the gun with a downward-upward chopping motion, as though this really aids in sending a bullet downrange faster--throwing the bullet looks totally assholish.

Cathy C
12-30-2011, 06:49 PM
Oh, and let's not forget the "hold the pistol sideways" like in the movies, so the super-heated ejected cartridge on a semi-auto hits them right in the face (yep, saw it happen to one idiot at a range!) :eek:

profen4
01-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Not so much the brand of revolver, per se, but the type of ammunition. Any .357 Magnum or above could generate enough side-spit to cut flesh. Many such calibers are available in small, light revolvers for concealed carry. One in which the timing (alignment of the cylinder to the rear of the barrel called the forcing cone) is loose or off will recoil hard and spit violently.


So would this be something that, if you saw someone about to fire a revolver doing (holding the gun improperly), you'd say something to them?



If a right-handed shooter were to use an improper two-hand hold where the fingers or palm of the left hand wrapped around the front of the cylinder for support, then a painful slice would happen inside the left fingers or palm. Ouch! It hurts to even imagine such stupidity.

Could I make the wound as bad (or as trivial) as I want? Does the degree of side-spit vary? For example, if I wanted my MC to just have a couple stitches and not have use of his hand for a few days, would that be okay? Or is it more, reconstructive surgery time? do ngu dep (http://doxinh.com/danh-muc/do-ngu/) do ngu nam dep (http://doxinh.com.vn/danh-muc/do-ngu/do-ngu-nam/) do dung sau sinh (http://doxinh.vn/danh-muc/do-dung-cho-me/do-dung-sau-sinh/) quan ao ban buon (http://trangbanbuon.com/) vest cong so (http://trangbanbuon.vn/danh-muc/thoi-trang-cong-so/vest-cong-so/) album anh cuoi dep (http://roses.vn/album/)

Torgo
01-05-2012, 07:45 PM
Could I make the wound as bad (or as trivial) as I want? Does the degree of side-spit vary? For example, if I wanted my MC to just have a couple stitches and not have use of his hand for a few days, would that be okay? Or is it more, reconstructive surgery time?

Not a gun expert myself, but Mythbusters did this myth using a S&W .500 magnum revolver. The idea is you can actually lose a thumb. (The episode is called 'Thermite vs Ice'; Google Video Search will find the whole ep in some sort of dodgy stream, if your conscience can take it.)

IIRC the lads found that the grip you'd need to be in danger of severing your thumb isn't entirely natural, but that the side-spit is indeed bad enough to do the job. It does appear to be an extremely bad idea. The degree of damage probably depends on exactly where you're holding your thumb.

Darkarma
01-05-2012, 08:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUe7dhagTY
Mythbusters cover all the shooting positions!

The Grift
01-05-2012, 08:17 PM
Even if you DO know a little bit about guns, there are still a lot of variances between models. For instance, if he does pick up a revolver, there are many models that don't load via the common method of the cylinder swinging out from the body: you have to open a little hatch on the side of the weapon and load the rounds in one at a time. I was a little confused the first time I was handed one of those.

Or, take something like this:
http://calicolightweaponsystems.com/home/uploads/images/LIBERTY%203.jpg

A Calico Arms pistol, known for it's enormous capacity. It's not small, but I'm pretty sure I would have no idea how to load it.

Some common weapons, e.g. certain models of the venerable 1911, can cause what's called "hammer bite" or "hammer pinch" where the hammer/slide arrangement pinches the webbing between the forefinger and thumb of the grip hand during the recoil phase if you are not holding the weapon correctly. This can happen even to seasoned professionals.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/pix/hammer_bit350.jpg

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/e45-2.jpg

And yes, rounds can be loaded backwards into magazines... just take a look at this actual promotional/catalog photo for Heckler & Koch

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kIWY2DV0KnE/Su0AH95kSbI/AAAAAAAAEuk/RM8TYt9Veec/HK%20catalog.JPG (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kIWY2DV0KnE/Su0AH95kSbI/AAAAAAAAEuk/RM8TYt9Veec/HK%20catalog.JPG)

Anyone spot the mistake?

And as long as we're on magazines... the magazine disconnect is in the same place on most semi-autos, but you need to know where it is to eject the magazine. It's also tough to properly load a magazine if you don't know how. If the slide is locked back when you insert the magazine, you need to know where the slide release lever is located in order to make the gun ready to fire. For that matter, on most semi-autos (excluding Glocks, etc) you need to know where the safety is and how to properly disengage it.

For someone with no knowledge of guns whatsoever, I would be impressed to see that person take an unloaded firearm and successfully get it in firing condition. Or reload an empty weapon. I'm reminded of that scene in Grosse Pointe Blank: "Make this gun work..."

Drachen Jager
01-05-2012, 09:21 PM
If you don't hold an automatic pistol correctly you can get your hand slammed by the slide. Probably wouldn't break anything, but quite painful.

A powerful rifle, held incorrectly can cause pain in the shoulder and a lot of embarrassment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YWqkX8ZLDI&feature=related

As for magazine loading, a FN P90 would be confusing to an amateur. That clear plastic thing running along the top, underneath the sight is the magazine.

http://www.military-today.com/firearms/fn_p90.jpg

Though, the biggest mistake an amateur is likely to make would be a safety related mistake. Do one of those badly enough on a range with military or ex-military around and he might end up with the broken bones you were looking for.

jeseymour
01-06-2012, 03:36 AM
If we're talking rifles, putting your eye up to the scope on a rifle can cause a pretty significant injury.

Al Stevens
01-06-2012, 03:54 AM
Popping the magazine out and assuming the pistol is unloaded.

Darkarma
01-06-2012, 03:57 AM
Thinking the gun is useless when its jammed?