Trying to Make Sense of a Possible Trend - Crazy Entitlement Much?

Ctairo · Dec 22, 2011

I know I still haven't broken 500 posts, but I've been around for a couple of years, and I've noticed a what seems to be a trend in the last few months: snarky, combative, impatient, downright unpleasant posters who seem irrationally entitled. Is it me--or has this site experienced a sharp uptick in members who aim to misbehave, and not in a cool, anti-Alliance, Mal Reynolds kinda way? Or have divalicious members always been around in the same numbers?

(Mods, if you feel the tone and/or subject of the post is inappropriate, feel free to delete.)

thebloodfiend · Dec 22, 2011

Cyia · Dec 22, 2011

Are you talking about new members, fly-by posters, or long-time members who've suddenly taken a trip to the dark side?

It's not uncommon for new writers to think that the world owes them instant fame and fortune; that's the "outside" perspective of the writing industry that most seem to have. (In my own experience, the uniformed think all book deals start at $1,000,000 and go up from there, while the writers are suddenly on the A-list with every household name you can think of.)

With that attitude as the norm, it's a bit of a reality check to find out that the average advance is far, far less and that fame is as much a pipedream in writing as it is in any field.

backslashbaby · Dec 22, 2011

I haven't noticed anything, but a scan of your thread history shows we don't really post on the same threads. So you probably don't mean me! Whew. I like a little divaliciousness

quicklime · Dec 22, 2011

pass me some, cory

to add a bit of fuel:

I doubt it is new. Writing isn't something everyone has a fair window into; most lay people understand it like most second-graders understand sex....10% understanding, 90% incorrect assumption. And everyone has to learn. Different people accept, and handle, their naivete along the way in different manners.

On top of that, the arts have always drawn more than their share of pretentious snowflakes and verbose poseurs. Part of it is the "aura" of art, part is the handy fallback of "its art, if you don't get it, that's your problem!" that can excuse shitty work.

In either case, i don't believe there's a new or unique trend here, although i've only been around for like a year, so I could be wrong. I think there is entitlement issues in life in general, but the problems here don't seem to be "the world owes me a fucking book deal", the problem here is usually some variation of the following:

editing isn't my job, i did the heavy lifting in creating an awesome story already.

the world doesn't "appreciate" my genius, I wrote an opus and they are all licking the paste off wallpaper and watching Jersey Shore....I'm too smart for them.

I could succeed except i don't have as much free time as all the other writers out there with full-time jobs, kids, soccer practice, husbands, family duties, scout meetings, etc....

My book isn't poorly written, it is just too controversial--religion/sex/espionage are never actually covered in best-selling works

I get what I meant in this passage, you need to pick it up here and follow along if it isn't obvious to you

Stephen King/Amanda Hocking/Dean Koontz use adverbs/preach/write 240,000-word books, so I can too.

areteus · Dec 22, 2011

It's the internet. It breeds idiots. To the extent my wife has a long standing New Year resolution not to engage with idiots on the internet...

A combination of some people feeling their opinion is somehow better than everyone elses', genuine misunderstandings about intention (especially with humour...) and the occasional all out troll. All internet forums get them, the bigger you are the more you attract. I don't think it is particularly worse than average here.

And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet....

Not particularly noticed a huge sense of entitlement, though. I suppose new posters may start out with expectations that are less than realistic and the best ones soon adapt to more achievable goals in time.

Ctairo · Dec 22, 2011

Cyia said:
Are you talking about new members, fly-by posters, or long-time members who've suddenly taken a trip to the dark side?

Mostly A and B (particularly those with 51 posts who plop into SYW). Although, now I'm concerned about C.

(In my own experience, the uniformed think all book deals start at $1,000,000 and go up from there, while the writers are suddenly on the A-list with every household name you can think of.)

With all the available information? *boggles*

backslashbaby said:
I haven't noticed anything, but a scan of your thread history shows we don't really post on the same threads. So you probably don't mean me! Whew. I like a little divaliciousness

Hee! Nope, definitely not you.

quicklime said:
to add a bit of fuel:

I doubt it is new. Writing isn't something everyone has a fair window into; most lay people understand it like most second-graders understand sex....10% understanding, 90% incorrect assumption. And everyone has to learn. Different people accept, and handle, their naivete along the way in different manners.

Seems a lot handle it like second-graders.

On top of that, the arts have always drawn more than their share of pretentious snowflakes and verbose poseurs. Part of it is the "aura" of art, part is the handy fallback of "its art, if you don't get it, that's your problem!" that can excuse shitty work.

Hmm. Which means they know nothing of art, because really, a producer of art has to take responsibility for how work is read. Art isn't produced in a vacuum. Unless you're living in a cave in remote Alaska, and even then, you might want a seal to have some input. If you throw up your hands, it means you're not an artist, you're a child having a tantrum.

editing isn't my job, i did the heavy lifting in creating an awesome story already.

the world doesn't "appreciate" my genius, I wrote an opus and they are all licking the paste off wallpaper and watching Jersey Shore....I'm too smart for them.

I could succeed except i don't have as much free time as all the other writers out there with full-time jobs, kids, soccer practice, husbands, family duties, scout meetings, etc....

My book isn't poorly written, it is just too controversial--religion/sex/espionage are never actually covered in best-selling works

I get what I meant in this passage, you need to pick it up here and follow along if it isn't obvious to you

Stephen King/Amanda Hocking/Dean Koontz use adverbs/preach/write 240,000-word books, so I can too.

This. All of this. I'm not saying every crit is spot-on, but the truth is, if enough people are telling you the same thing, ur doin it wrong. And really, if you don't want to listen, maybe writing isn't for you, maybe posting online isn't for you, and maybe just maybe, you might want to reconsider the whole "artist" gig because writing is a business, and no business person wants to deal with a problem child.

areteus said:
It's the internet. It breeds idiots. To the extent my wife has a long standing New Year resolution not to engage with idiots on the internet...

A genius (re)solution!

A combination of some people feeling their opinion is somehow better than everyone elses', genuine misunderstandings about intention (especially with humour...) and the occasional all out troll. All internet forums get them, the bigger you are the more you attract. I don't think it is particularly worse than average here.

It's possible I've paid more attention to the misbehavers here and not elsewhere. *ponders*

And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet....

QFT – often, whether we mean to be or not.

Not particularly noticed a huge sense of entitlement, though. I suppose new posters may start out with expectations that are less than realistic and the best ones soon adapt to more achievable goals in time.

I have the sudden urge to pass them all a manual on decorum. I mean, you don't walk into someone's house, drop your pants and relieve yourself – you ask where the bathroom is. Which isn't really the same thing, but eh, close enough.

Monkey · Dec 22, 2011

I tend to hang out in P&CE, and what I've noticed (other than a short-lived and semi-amusing break out of trolls) is that our regular posters have gotten a bit snippy lately.

Maybe it's just election season, maybe it's tough times...I don't know. But I'm seeing members take swipes at other members when it doesn't seem the least bit called for, and little rivalries getting steadily more intense.

I think we could all take a deep breath and remember Williebee's advice to assume good intentions.

There have always been new members who had golden word syndrome or came off as More Writerly Than Thou. There have always been people who simply could not take a crit without getting upset. But most of them grow out of it, and I think that it reflects best on us, as a writing board, to give them some room while they figure it out. What I mean is, it's cool to call them on it, but not to hold it against them or assign labels.

They're new. They'll learn. I'm glad that I've been here long enough that most aren't going to remember my first time through Query Letter Hell.

Perhaps what we're actually seeing isn't an upswing in "entitled" members, but an upswing in members during a time when a lot of us are under stress...holidays, elections, a rough economy, or other.

CrastersBabies · Dec 22, 2011

As someone who has been here a few months, I find a few posters to be utterly rude and arrogant. Thank God for ignore lists. Just don't have the time.

I don't think it's "this" board (and couldn't say either way as I haven't been around as long as many of the other folks), but I think it's common on most boards. You always have the jerks, the clique'ish people who have no intention of engaging the "newbs" or go out of their way to put "newbs" in their place.

I've seen a few sh*tty comments from people that make me scratch my head, more passive-aggressive BS than anything. I toss most of that up to a person who must be pretty miserable or so starved for attention that they'll take whatever they can get.

In the end, I choose who I read and who I respond to.

But, I will say this, I find this board far more buttoned down (in terms of moderation) and the general feel to be more welcoming than about 95% of the other boards out there--especially writing forums.

So, for the little I do see that's gripe-worthy, the rest makes up for it 100-fold.

I've seen some really amazing people on this forum, people who have given me encouragement and messages that surprised me in the best possible way. If that means I have to wade through a few snarky, twat-ridden posts, then so be it. I think that's going to be the same for most any discussion board, and it's far worse elsewhere, imho. Far worse.

Elaine Margarett · Dec 22, 2011

I've been around a while, mostly lurk, rarely post. There are a few long-timers here with huge numbers of posts I routinely have on ignore. Getting into pissing matches and one-upmanship is so high school. It's distruptive and rude to the community as a whole and if I engage in it I'm an a**h**e, too.

I have notified mods regarding offensive posts that are directed to others, because it ticks me off when I see someone resorting to name calling, etc. Other than that, I let it go. Not that AW isn't important to me, but I tell myself it's probably a much bigger social outlet to people who have tens of thousands of posts than it is to me, with 1200 posts.

Live and let live. And ignore the jerks.<g>

Jupiter · Dec 22, 2011

Elaine Margarett said:
Live and let live. And ignore the jerks.<g>

This.

IMHO, bearing in mind the number of members that this site has, it's bound to have the odd few eejits, if only to satisfy the Law Of Averages.

The groovy people are numerous, the others are moderator meat.

shakeysix · Dec 22, 2011

if it's me you're describing, chalk it up to menopause. for my part i have found much more support and humor in this place and one other--the block--than all the others. there are a few posters i avoid, maybe three, tops. --s6

Gilroy Cullen · Dec 22, 2011

While a newbie here, I'm an old hand at internet forums, and the accompanying idiocy.

I am willing to admit that I might be a bit snippy in a few of my posts. If it is me, I apologize for any offense. Most times, I'll try to recouch my snip in some form of joke. It doesn't always work.

Normally (if anything is truly normal any more), I like to keep a civil tongue. I know that I don't know everything, but I can offer my opinion on things I do know. That is something I don't think is realized when posting here. A lot of us are on personal writer journeys and each has his or her own opinions of what works and what doesn't.

Of course, some people haven't developed the skin of an aligator to protect themselves.

Others haven't learned the trick of "don't respond the first day you read a response."

As usual, just my opinion. YMMV.

Amadan · Dec 22, 2011

I think the entitlement/ignorance-of-reality syndrome comes from two sources:

1. The booming trend in self-publishing with its attendant cheerleaders, convincing a lot of aspiring writers who've never done the work of researching the publishing industry that all they need is to hit the right magic formula and they too will be able to live off of sales of their $0.99 Kindle books. (Remember ten years back or so when there were all those books about how anyone could quit their job and just spend a few hours a day selling stuff on eBay?)

2. More and more aspiring writers are young people migrating over from the fan fiction community, where it's very easy to attract a large number of adoring fans telling you how awesome your writing is and that you write better than Stephanie Meyer!!1!1! So they show up here accustomed to squees and hugs and fawning, and find out that this is a much tougher crowd and their writing is a lot crappier than they thought it was.

Jupiter · Dec 22, 2011

Perhaps it has a little to do with the 'instafame' culture of X Factor, American Idol, reality TV, YouTube etc. Increasingly in the media there are people who are famous for being famous regardless of whether or not they have any talent, (although big tits and no self respect may help).

Writing takes time, effort, perserverance, ability and the hide of a rhino. Anything less and a person will find it rather hard going.

Personally, I have small tits, self respect and the arse of a rhino. I'm working on the rest.

jjdebenedictis · Dec 22, 2011

More and more aspiring writers are young people migrating over from the fan fiction community...

Yes, and I'll just point out, for the OP's benefit, that "half-blood" happens to be a term from Harry Potter.

**meaningful look**

In other words, Amadan's hit the nail on the head, I think.

Thankfully, young people usually grow out of their affront at the lack of adulation the world provides. There is hope for such as these.

butterfly · Dec 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:

^^ love this! +10

Sorry, blatant disregard for the OP. sigh...

Could be: new to forums, pleas for attention (any attention is better than none, right?), testing the waters, social / verbal inadequacy, misfit, loner, or simply checking out writing.

Pretty sure it may have something to do with instant gratification. Faster / newer / better give-it-to-me-know because I'm ME attitude. Probaby don't have the discipline to write a novel so some - yes, some, there are a lot of intelligent youth out there - write a few paras or flash fiction or put together word stew and hope someone else will spoon out the good stuff.

Don't worry...they'll grow old and become jaded and cynical and wonder wtf is wrong with the "kids of today". And the cycle will repeat as it is destined to do because the only thing that change about humans is the technology and the clothing.

thebloodfiend · Dec 22, 2011

jjdebenedictis said:
Yes, and I'll just point out, for the OP's benefit, that "half-blood" happens to be a term from Harry Potter.

**meaningful look**

In other words, Amadan's hit the nail on the head, I think.

Thankfully, young people usually grow out of their affront at the lack of adulation the world provides. There is hope for such as these.

All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

But I generally think that kind of attitude comes from writers who've gotten a pat on the head from their class, teacher, mother, etc... and think they're going to get the same from us.

buz · Dec 22, 2011

And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet....

What do you mean "on the internet"?

I can be an idiot in socks on a box eating lox sucking...I mean with a fox. Here or there or anywhere. On a train or a plane or a balloon of methane or piggyback on a Cawdor-thane or...I dunno, a hydrofoil.

And what do you mean "once"...?

I've gone so far past that quota I've lapped it. Several hundred times.

bearilou · Dec 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

But I generally think that kind of attitude comes from writers who've gotten a pat on the head from their class, teacher, mother, etc... and think they're going to get the same from us.

I agree and then some. Sadly, there are many times I see some attitudes on here and can pretty much peg who is coming fresh out of their fanfic environment. Sometimes it's the lingo, sometimes it's just simply the attitude toward criticism or the advice they're given (especially when it's not what they want to hear aka headpatting from other quarters, especially their circle of friends/fans in the fandoms), sometimes it's in the types of questions they ask.

It's not generalized and it's not across the board but sometimes....you can see the glimmer.

CrastersBabies · Dec 22, 2011

buzhidao said:
What do you mean "on the internet"?

I can be an idiot in socks on a box eating lox sucking...I mean with a fox. Here or there or anywhere. On a train or a plane or a balloon of methane or piggyback on a Cawdor-thane or...I dunno, a hydrofoil.

And what do you mean "once"...?

I've gone so far past that quota I've lapped it. Several hundred times.

I think we all have our moments. It's when those moments become the norm that you probably need someone to come over and kick you in the butt.

(grin)

Amadan · Dec 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

Oy, I like me some fan fiction now and then and I heartily encourage it as a past time, but "shipping wars" just do not compute for me. Dumbest way I can imagine to participate in a fandom.

Xelebes · Dec 22, 2011

I'm going to be honest, I haven't noticed any upshoot in newbieness.

thebloodfiend · Dec 22, 2011

Amadan said:
Oy, I like me some fan fiction now and then and I heartily encourage it as a past time, but "shipping wars" just do not compute for me. Dumbest way I can imagine to participate in a fandom.

Talking about ships can be fun, but when it turns nasty, it's terribly stupid. Unfortunately, that's 90% of the Legend of Aang fandom and about 60% of the Harry Potter fandom.

jjdebenedictis · Dec 22, 2011

thebloodfiend said:
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

Agreed, agreed. Fandom (like the internet) is only fun as long as you don't accidentally drop yourself into a shark tank (or a pit of voles.) Knowing when to hit the back button is a crucial skill.

People are proud of their art, and they thereby become (in a very positive way) proud of themselves. Pride in one's abilities is a depressingly rare thing for a lot of folks.

So when someone else then points out the flaws in the artwork that the artist can't (yet) see, that really stings. It feels, to the artist, like something beautiful has been stolen from them.

And it's a tiresome-but-very-typical human reaction to attack someone rather than accept they're right. The artist's vitriol is really about denial, about silencing the messenger who bears news they don't want to hear.

I really dislike seeing people getting angry over valid criticism, but at the same time, I remember what golden word syndrome felt like. So I feel for them, too. I know they're acting out from real pain, and I also know they will grow out of it, so there's no real need for me to take offence.

And I have to say, I'm really impressed with how gently and kindly AWs typically treat these people. Overall, this is a great crowd. No need for the back button here.

Trying to Make Sense of a Possible Trend - Crazy Entitlement Much?

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