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View Full Version : Trying to Make Sense of a Possible Trend - Crazy Entitlement Much?



Ctairo
12-22-2011, 08:17 PM
I know I still haven't broken 500 posts, but I've been around for a couple of years, and I've noticed a what seems to be a trend in the last few months: snarky, combative, impatient, downright unpleasant posters who seem irrationally entitled. Is it me--or has this site experienced a sharp uptick in members who aim to misbehave, and not in a cool, anti-Alliance, Mal Reynolds kinda way? Or have divalicious members always been around in the same numbers?

(Mods, if you feel the tone and/or subject of the post is inappropriate, feel free to delete.)

thebloodfiend
12-22-2011, 09:11 PM
:popcorn:

Cyia
12-22-2011, 09:21 PM
Are you talking about new members, fly-by posters, or long-time members who've suddenly taken a trip to the dark side?

It's not uncommon for new writers to think that the world owes them instant fame and fortune; that's the "outside" perspective of the writing industry that most seem to have. (In my own experience, the uniformed think all book deals start at $1,000,000 and go up from there, while the writers are suddenly on the A-list with every household name you can think of.)

With that attitude as the norm, it's a bit of a reality check to find out that the average advance is far, far less and that fame is as much a pipedream in writing as it is in any field.

backslashbaby
12-22-2011, 09:21 PM
I haven't noticed anything, but a scan of your thread history shows we don't really post on the same threads. So you probably don't mean me! Whew. I like a little divaliciousness :)

quicklime
12-22-2011, 09:24 PM
pass me some, cory


to add a bit of fuel:

I doubt it is new. Writing isn't something everyone has a fair window into; most lay people understand it like most second-graders understand sex....10% understanding, 90% incorrect assumption. And everyone has to learn. Different people accept, and handle, their naivete along the way in different manners.

On top of that, the arts have always drawn more than their share of pretentious snowflakes and verbose poseurs. Part of it is the "aura" of art, part is the handy fallback of "its art, if you don't get it, that's your problem!" that can excuse shitty work.


In either case, i don't believe there's a new or unique trend here, although i've only been around for like a year, so I could be wrong. I think there is entitlement issues in life in general, but the problems here don't seem to be "the world owes me a fucking book deal", the problem here is usually some variation of the following:

editing isn't my job, i did the heavy lifting in creating an awesome story already.

the world doesn't "appreciate" my genius, I wrote an opus and they are all licking the paste off wallpaper and watching Jersey Shore....I'm too smart for them.

I could succeed except i don't have as much free time as all the other writers out there with full-time jobs, kids, soccer practice, husbands, family duties, scout meetings, etc....

My book isn't poorly written, it is just too controversial--religion/sex/espionage are never actually covered in best-selling works

I get what I meant in this passage, you need to pick it up here and follow along if it isn't obvious to you

Stephen King/Amanda Hocking/Dean Koontz use adverbs/preach/write 240,000-word books, so I can too.

areteus
12-22-2011, 09:51 PM
It's the internet. It breeds idiots. To the extent my wife has a long standing New Year resolution not to engage with idiots on the internet...

A combination of some people feeling their opinion is somehow better than everyone elses', genuine misunderstandings about intention (especially with humour...) and the occasional all out troll. All internet forums get them, the bigger you are the more you attract. I don't think it is particularly worse than average here.

And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet....

Not particularly noticed a huge sense of entitlement, though. I suppose new posters may start out with expectations that are less than realistic and the best ones soon adapt to more achievable goals in time.

Ctairo
12-22-2011, 10:34 PM
Are you talking about new members, fly-by posters, or long-time members who've suddenly taken a trip to the dark side?

Mostly A and B (particularly those with 51 posts who plop into SYW). Although, now I'm concerned about C.


(In my own experience, the uniformed think all book deals start at $1,000,000 and go up from there, while the writers are suddenly on the A-list with every household name you can think of.) With all the available information? *boggles*


I haven't noticed anything, but a scan of your thread history shows we don't really post on the same threads. So you probably don't mean me! Whew. I like a little divaliciousness

Hee! Nope, definitely not you.



to add a bit of fuel:

I doubt it is new. Writing isn't something everyone has a fair window into; most lay people understand it like most second-graders understand sex....10% understanding, 90% incorrect assumption. And everyone has to learn. Different people accept, and handle, their naivete along the way in different manners.

Seems a lot handle it like second-graders.


On top of that, the arts have always drawn more than their share of pretentious snowflakes and verbose poseurs. Part of it is the "aura" of art, part is the handy fallback of "its art, if you don't get it, that's your problem!" that can excuse shitty work. Hmm. Which means they know nothing of art, because really, a producer of art has to take responsibility for how work is read. Art isn't produced in a vacuum. Unless you're living in a cave in remote Alaska, and even then, you might want a seal to have some input. If you throw up your hands, it means you're not an artist, you're a child having a tantrum.



editing isn't my job, i did the heavy lifting in creating an awesome story already.

the world doesn't "appreciate" my genius, I wrote an opus and they are all licking the paste off wallpaper and watching Jersey Shore....I'm too smart for them.

I could succeed except i don't have as much free time as all the other writers out there with full-time jobs, kids, soccer practice, husbands, family duties, scout meetings, etc....

My book isn't poorly written, it is just too controversial--religion/sex/espionage are never actually covered in best-selling works

I get what I meant in this passage, you need to pick it up here and follow along if it isn't obvious to you

Stephen King/Amanda Hocking/Dean Koontz use adverbs/preach/write 240,000-word books, so I can too. This. All of this. I'm not saying every crit is spot-on, but the truth is, if enough people are telling you the same thing, ur doin it wrong. And really, if you don't want to listen, maybe writing isn't for you, maybe posting online isn't for you, and maybe just maybe, you might want to reconsider the whole "artist" gig because writing is a business, and no business person wants to deal with a problem child.


It's the internet. It breeds idiots. To the extent my wife has a long standing New Year resolution not to engage with idiots on the internet...

A genius (re)solution!


A combination of some people feeling their opinion is somehow better than everyone elses', genuine misunderstandings about intention (especially with humour...) and the occasional all out troll. All internet forums get them, the bigger you are the more you attract. I don't think it is particularly worse than average here. It's possible I've paid more attention to the misbehavers here and not elsewhere. *ponders*


And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet.... QFT often, whether we mean to be or not.


Not particularly noticed a huge sense of entitlement, though. I suppose new posters may start out with expectations that are less than realistic and the best ones soon adapt to more achievable goals in time. I have the sudden urge to pass them all a manual on decorum. I mean, you don't walk into someone's house, drop your pants and relieve yourself you ask where the bathroom is. Which isn't really the same thing, but eh, close enough.

Monkey
12-22-2011, 10:45 PM
I tend to hang out in P&CE, and what I've noticed (other than a short-lived and semi-amusing break out of trolls) is that our regular posters have gotten a bit snippy lately.

Maybe it's just election season, maybe it's tough times...I don't know. But I'm seeing members take swipes at other members when it doesn't seem the least bit called for, and little rivalries getting steadily more intense.

I think we could all take a deep breath and remember Williebee's advice to assume good intentions.

There have always been new members who had golden word syndrome or came off as More Writerly Than Thou. There have always been people who simply could not take a crit without getting upset. But most of them grow out of it, and I think that it reflects best on us, as a writing board, to give them some room while they figure it out. What I mean is, it's cool to call them on it, but not to hold it against them or assign labels.

They're new. They'll learn. I'm glad that I've been here long enough that most aren't going to remember my first time through Query Letter Hell.

Perhaps what we're actually seeing isn't an upswing in "entitled" members, but an upswing in members during a time when a lot of us are under stress...holidays, elections, a rough economy, or other.

CrastersBabies
12-22-2011, 10:51 PM
As someone who has been here a few months, I find a few posters to be utterly rude and arrogant. Thank God for ignore lists. Just don't have the time.

I don't think it's "this" board (and couldn't say either way as I haven't been around as long as many of the other folks), but I think it's common on most boards. You always have the jerks, the clique'ish people who have no intention of engaging the "newbs" or go out of their way to put "newbs" in their place.

I've seen a few sh*tty comments from people that make me scratch my head, more passive-aggressive BS than anything. I toss most of that up to a person who must be pretty miserable or so starved for attention that they'll take whatever they can get.

In the end, I choose who I read and who I respond to.

But, I will say this, I find this board far more buttoned down (in terms of moderation) and the general feel to be more welcoming than about 95% of the other boards out there--especially writing forums.

So, for the little I do see that's gripe-worthy, the rest makes up for it 100-fold. :) I've seen some really amazing people on this forum, people who have given me encouragement and messages that surprised me in the best possible way. If that means I have to wade through a few snarky, twat-ridden posts, then so be it. I think that's going to be the same for most any discussion board, and it's far worse elsewhere, imho. Far worse.

Elaine Margarett
12-22-2011, 11:07 PM
I've been around a while, mostly lurk, rarely post. There are a few long-timers here with huge numbers of posts I routinely have on ignore. Getting into pissing matches and one-upmanship is so high school. It's distruptive and rude to the community as a whole and if I engage in it I'm an a**h**e, too.

I have notified mods regarding offensive posts that are directed to others, because it ticks me off when I see someone resorting to name calling, etc. Other than that, I let it go. Not that AW isn't important to me, but I tell myself it's probably a much bigger social outlet to people who have tens of thousands of posts than it is to me, with 1200 posts.

Live and let live. And ignore the jerks.<g>

Jupiter
12-22-2011, 11:34 PM
Live and let live. And ignore the jerks.<g>

This.

IMHO, bearing in mind the number of members that this site has, it's bound to have the odd few eejits, if only to satisfy the Law Of Averages.

The groovy people are numerous, the others are moderator meat.:D

shakeysix
12-22-2011, 11:47 PM
if it's me you're describing, chalk it up to menopause. for my part i have found much more support and humor in this place and one other--the block--than all the others. there are a few posters i avoid, maybe three, tops. --s6

Gilroy Cullen
12-23-2011, 12:03 AM
While a newbie here, I'm an old hand at internet forums, and the accompanying idiocy.

I am willing to admit that I might be a bit snippy in a few of my posts. If it is me, I apologize for any offense. Most times, I'll try to recouch my snip in some form of joke. It doesn't always work.


Normally (if anything is truly normal any more), I like to keep a civil tongue. I know that I don't know everything, but I can offer my opinion on things I do know. That is something I don't think is realized when posting here. A lot of us are on personal writer journeys and each has his or her own opinions of what works and what doesn't.

Of course, some people haven't developed the skin of an aligator to protect themselves.

Others haven't learned the trick of "don't respond the first day you read a response."

As usual, just my opinion. YMMV.

Amadan
12-23-2011, 12:04 AM
I think the entitlement/ignorance-of-reality syndrome comes from two sources:

1. The booming trend in self-publishing with its attendant cheerleaders, convincing a lot of aspiring writers who've never done the work of researching the publishing industry that all they need is to hit the right magic formula and they too will be able to live off of sales of their $0.99 Kindle books. (Remember ten years back or so when there were all those books about how anyone could quit their job and just spend a few hours a day selling stuff on eBay?)

2. More and more aspiring writers are young people migrating over from the fan fiction community, where it's very easy to attract a large number of adoring fans telling you how awesome your writing is and that you write better than Stephanie Meyer!!1!1! So they show up here accustomed to squees and hugs and fawning, and find out that this is a much tougher crowd and their writing is a lot crappier than they thought it was.

Jupiter
12-23-2011, 12:44 AM
Perhaps it has a little to do with the 'instafame' culture of X Factor, American Idol, reality TV, YouTube etc. Increasingly in the media there are people who are famous for being famous regardless of whether or not they have any talent, (although big tits and no self respect may help).

Writing takes time, effort, perserverance, ability and the hide of a rhino. Anything less and a person will find it rather hard going.

Personally, I have small tits, self respect and the arse of a rhino. I'm working on the rest. :D

jjdebenedictis
12-23-2011, 01:03 AM
More and more aspiring writers are young people migrating over from the fan fiction community...Yes, and I'll just point out, for the OP's benefit, that "half-blood" happens to be a term from Harry Potter.

**meaningful look**

In other words, Amadan's hit the nail on the head, I think.

Thankfully, young people usually grow out of their affront at the lack of adulation the world provides. There is hope for such as these.

butterfly
12-23-2011, 01:11 AM
:popcorn:

^^ love this! +10

Sorry, blatant disregard for the OP. sigh...

Could be: new to forums, pleas for attention (any attention is better than none, right?), testing the waters, social / verbal inadequacy, misfit, loner, or simply checking out writing.

Pretty sure it may have something to do with instant gratification. Faster / newer / better give-it-to-me-know because I'm ME attitude. Probaby don't have the discipline to write a novel so some - yes, some, there are a lot of intelligent youth out there - write a few paras or flash fiction or put together word stew and hope someone else will spoon out the good stuff.

Don't worry...they'll grow old and become jaded and cynical and wonder wtf is wrong with the "kids of today". And the cycle will repeat as it is destined to do because the only thing that change about humans is the technology and the clothing.

thebloodfiend
12-23-2011, 02:53 AM
Yes, and I'll just point out, for the OP's benefit, that "half-blood" happens to be a term from Harry Potter.

**meaningful look**

In other words, Amadan's hit the nail on the head, I think.

Thankfully, young people usually grow out of their affront at the lack of adulation the world provides. There is hope for such as these.

All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

But I generally think that kind of attitude comes from writers who've gotten a pat on the head from their class, teacher, mother, etc... and think they're going to get the same from us.

buz
12-23-2011, 04:11 AM
And to clarify my above comment about idiots... everyone is an idiot at least once on the internet....

What do you mean "on the internet"?

I can be an idiot in socks on a box eating lox sucking...I mean with a fox. Here or there or anywhere. On a train or a plane or a balloon of methane or piggyback on a Cawdor-thane or...I dunno, a hydrofoil.

And what do you mean "once"...?

I've gone so far past that quota I've lapped it. Several hundred times. ;)

bearilou
12-23-2011, 04:39 AM
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

But I generally think that kind of attitude comes from writers who've gotten a pat on the head from their class, teacher, mother, etc... and think they're going to get the same from us.

I agree and then some. Sadly, there are many times I see some attitudes on here and can pretty much peg who is coming fresh out of their fanfic environment. Sometimes it's the lingo, sometimes it's just simply the attitude toward criticism or the advice they're given (especially when it's not what they want to hear aka headpatting from other quarters, especially their circle of friends/fans in the fandoms), sometimes it's in the types of questions they ask.

It's not generalized and it's not across the board but sometimes....you can see the glimmer.

CrastersBabies
12-23-2011, 05:08 AM
What do you mean "on the internet"?

I can be an idiot in socks on a box eating lox sucking...I mean with a fox. Here or there or anywhere. On a train or a plane or a balloon of methane or piggyback on a Cawdor-thane or...I dunno, a hydrofoil.

And what do you mean "once"...?

I've gone so far past that quota I've lapped it. Several hundred times. ;)

I think we all have our moments. It's when those moments become the norm that you probably need someone to come over and kick you in the butt.

(grin)

Amadan
12-23-2011, 05:39 AM
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.

Oy, I like me some fan fiction now and then and I heartily encourage it as a past time, but "shipping wars" just do not compute for me. Dumbest way I can imagine to participate in a fandom.

Xelebes
12-23-2011, 05:52 AM
I'm going to be honest, I haven't noticed any upshoot in newbieness.

thebloodfiend
12-23-2011, 05:53 AM
Oy, I like me some fan fiction now and then and I heartily encourage it as a past time, but "shipping wars" just do not compute for me. Dumbest way I can imagine to participate in a fandom.

Talking about ships can be fun, but when it turns nasty, it's terribly stupid. Unfortunately, that's 90% of the Legend of Aang fandom and about 60% of the Harry Potter fandom.

jjdebenedictis
12-23-2011, 06:13 AM
All fanfic communities aren't bad, but good god, you never, ever want to get involved in shipping wars. They breed argumentative attitudes toward writing and in no way whatsoever promote RYFR. Let's just say I haven't used my fanfiction.net account in a helluva long time. The venom on certain boards (and lack of mods) makes it a stressful place.Agreed, agreed. Fandom (like the internet) is only fun as long as you don't accidentally drop yourself into a shark tank (or a pit of voles.) Knowing when to hit the back button is a crucial skill.

People are proud of their art, and they thereby become (in a very positive way) proud of themselves. Pride in one's abilities is a depressingly rare thing for a lot of folks.

So when someone else then points out the flaws in the artwork that the artist can't (yet) see, that really stings. It feels, to the artist, like something beautiful has been stolen from them.

And it's a tiresome-but-very-typical human reaction to attack someone rather than accept they're right. The artist's vitriol is really about denial, about silencing the messenger who bears news they don't want to hear.

I really dislike seeing people getting angry over valid criticism, but at the same time, I remember what golden word syndrome felt like. So I feel for them, too. I know they're acting out from real pain, and I also know they will grow out of it, so there's no real need for me to take offence.

And I have to say, I'm really impressed with how gently and kindly AWs typically treat these people. Overall, this is a great crowd. No need for the back button here. :)

Susan Littlefield
12-23-2011, 07:12 AM
Sang to the tune of Santa Claus is Coming to Town

You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout
I'm telling you why.......
Moderators are coming to town!

Was that good?


I know I still haven't broken 500 posts, but I've been around for a couple of years, and I've noticed a what seems to be a trend in the last few months: snarky, combative, impatient, downright unpleasant posters who seem irrationally entitled. Is it me--or has this site experienced a sharp uptick in members who aim to misbehave, and not in a cool, anti-Alliance, Mal Reynolds kinda way? Or have divalicious members always been around in the same numbers?

Yes, sometimes I notice this too, but I just choose to move on to another thread to read. I think it's so much easier for people to misbehave on an internet forum because there is not personal interaction. I say treat people here just as good as you would in real life (unless you don't treat anyone well, in which case you won't last long here).

Thanks for bringing this up. :)

Alitriona
12-23-2011, 07:31 AM
I haven't noticed a rise in snark. The snark, golden word and my way is the only way posts have always been around. I think as we become more familiar with the site and the true landscape of publishing, as well as our own abilities, we notice more. I visit every day, a few times a day. I often just read if I don't have something useful to add. I don't have an ignore list because I have found some people I disagree with strongly on certain issues have excellent points to make on others.

MysteryRiter
12-23-2011, 07:31 AM
I agree about the increase in arguments. But it's probably because:
a) this is an internet forum
and b) writing/querying which is what we are all doing is very stressful and can be angering at times (I guess, rarely happens to me) so this place when we let off steam here, well, some people may be letting off too much steam, ha ha! :)

robjvargas
12-23-2011, 09:12 AM
editing isn't my job, i did the heavy lifting in creating an awesome story already.

the world doesn't "appreciate" my genius, I wrote an opus and they are all licking the paste off wallpaper and watching Jersey Shore....I'm too smart for them.

...

My book isn't poorly written, it is just too controversial--religion/sex/espionage are never actually covered in best-selling works

I get what I meant in this passage, you need to pick it up here and follow along if it isn't obvious to you

Stephen King/Amanda Hocking/Dean Koontz use adverbs/preach/write 240,000-word books, so I can too.

DING!
:Soapbox:

This... thing (not just writing, but painting, photo, sculpture, name the art form) has come out of us and we think we've poured our very essence into it.

You know, maybe you have. But now that it's out on (proverbial or literal) paper, now you're in a business, bub. People don't know your heart, or your soul, and it's neither that's being sold. It's a story.

And I think it's WAY too easy to forget that.

I think I'm saying the same basic thing when I say it's not so much entitlement as a sense of personal investment, and therefore a sense of personal attack when the work gets criticized, rejected, not accepted.

Polenth
12-23-2011, 09:28 AM
I know I still haven't broken 500 posts, but I've been around for a couple of years, and I've noticed a what seems to be a trend in the last few months: snarky, combative, impatient, downright unpleasant posters who seem irrationally entitled. Is it me--or has this site experienced a sharp uptick in members who aim to misbehave, and not in a cool, anti-Alliance, Mal Reynolds kinda way? Or have divalicious members always been around in the same numbers?

The forum always gets its share of "I'm a writing genius, how dare you disagree with me". It's been that way since I joined, rather than being something that's only just happened. You may be remembering the past in a rose-tinted way, or it may be you just didn't notice it until now. But it's not new and it goes with the territory of being a popular forum.

(Recently, I'd say the worst I've seen was a much older member who decided now was a good time to randomly fly off the handle at people. So you can't blame it all on the new either... sometimes it's an older person who has lost their grounding.)

The Lonely One
12-23-2011, 09:29 AM
My thoughts are that most of the internet goes vastly unchecked.

People come here expecting the same. Sadly for them, it is not so.

I've been 'humbled' more than once here.

seun
12-23-2011, 02:25 PM
I blame Simon Cowell.

Look at the rise of TV 'talent' shows over the last decade. They show people they can be famous by losing a contest and by having no obvious talent. People make a living out of losing. Even if they win, all they have to do is sing a few songs, right? So if I want to be famous, all I have to do is write a book, send it off to a publisher and watch the money roll in. I don't have to deal with editing or re-writing or any of that stuff. I've written a book and I deserve my success.

Right?

Dr.Gonzo
12-23-2011, 02:34 PM
I blame Simon Cowell.

Look at the rise of TV 'talent' shows over the last decade. They show people they can be famous by losing a contest and by having no obvious talent. People make a living out of losing. Even if they win, all they have to do is sing a few songs, right? So if I want to be famous, all I have to do is write a book, send it off to a publisher and watch the money roll in. I don't have to deal with editing or re-writing or any of that stuff. I've written a book and I deserve my success.

Right?

AbsOlUtely sen-say-shonal. It's people like you, you know, why I decided to come to this forum.

You've got four yeses.

seun
12-23-2011, 02:40 PM
You've got four yeses.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! I can't like believe it. This is well good innit. Wow. I want to thank my mum and my four stepdads and Jesus coz he's like well good and Simon you've been like a bruvva to me and I'm gonna do you well proud wiv dis song what I've been singing and I hope everyone downloads it like right now. Wow. OMG.

shaldna
12-23-2011, 04:52 PM
There have been a skit of trolls lately, but it happens everywhere, not just here.

In terms of new members - sometimes it takes a while for people to get their bearings and find their feet and learn what's appropriate and what isn't.

And even long term members can have off days and get snarky.

Dr.Gonzo
12-23-2011, 05:03 PM
There have been a skit of trolls lately, but it happens everywhere, not just here.

In terms of new members - sometimes it takes a while for people to get their bearings and find their feet and learn what's appropriate and what isn't.

And even long term members can have off days and get snarky.

Yes, but in your defense I've always found you to be polite and humorous.

Marian Perera
12-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Agreed, agreed. Fandom (like the internet) is only fun as long as you don't accidentally drop yourself into a shark tank (or a pit of voles.) Knowing when to hit the back button is a crucial skill.

People are proud of their art, and they thereby become (in a very positive way) proud of themselves. Pride in one's abilities is a depressingly rare thing for a lot of folks.

So when someone else then points out the flaws in the artwork that the artist can't (yet) see, that really stings. It feels, to the artist, like something beautiful has been stolen from them.

Oh my lord. This, exactly.

I have (or had) an online friend whom I met through the Transformers fandom. I enjoyed some of her work and we discussed fanfics, books and what-have-you. She even sent me a lovely handmade card for Christmas.

The problem came with her magnum opus, a fanfic that's been going on for two years, so obviously she's put a lot of work into it. I read, enjoyed and reviewed for the first year. Then the main character turned into... well, let's just say I started thinking of him as the God Sue of Cybertron. That fic made me loathe him, so I stopped reading.

My friend recently PMed me to say she missed my reviews but knew I was very busy, so she just hoped I'd be able to catch up on the fic again some day.

At that point I decided to be honest, so I PMed back saying I could send her my thoughts on the fic, but she should be prepared for me to be explicit - kind, but direct - about what didn't work, and she should be aware that I crit fanfics just as I crit work intended for publication.

She replied, "Sure, go ahead. Although all my reviewers leave glowing feedback, which I love, I know that no story is perfect. So I'm prepared."

I sent her my feedback and have not heard back since.

I feel like the Grinch who stole her Christmas. :(

Darkshore
12-23-2011, 05:18 PM
I've just started up here a few months ago, but a few names pop into my head with this topic in mind. I cut my teeth here doing crits in SYW and I've seen a bit of what you're talking about. School and work has forced me away from critting lately so I'm not sure if the asshatery has increased. It's something I've learned to just let slide. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it understand that its prose is not golden.

shadowwalker
12-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.

Ctairo
12-23-2011, 06:19 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.
Wait! Don't go! You know, the "functioning brain" thing makes you sound defensive. There's disagreeing with someone - and there's being, well, speshul. (For clarity, I'm not saying that's you because I don't know when or where your problem interactions have happened.)

If one can simultaneously support an argument and not come off like a prima donna, then, in my experience, that person is heard around here. If one comes off like a prima donna, odds are entitlement of the OMGIAMRITE IAMAGENIUS&SPESCHUL! is to blame*.

(If I'm participating in a popcorn moment, somebody stop me.)

*See swvaughn's post for a different take.

swvaughn
12-23-2011, 06:21 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.

As a very old-timey member who lurks endlessly and posts the most when my sanity starts to erode from lack of contact with writer-creatures (see post count, slightly lowered from the Great Board Wipeout of Earlier This Year and also Some Other Year I Forget Which One), and who has been around since before Phentermine, I say...

True dat. :D

However, there are always Speshul Flowerz coming and going, and folks of all ages, lengths of memberships and levels of Internet wisdom do occasionally succumb to the dreaded Golden Wurdz infection.

This time of the year can be especially nutso. Nerves are frayed, families are holiday-ing all over us and disrupting our generally quiet writerly lives.

I think many writers (well, me, at least) struggle with the overly social aspects of the season -- it's not normal for us, and some of the tension can spill over into things we're not normally tense about. Like our interactions on AW.

Sit back and have some eggnog. It'll pass. :)

[and furthermore... DearLordI'veBeenHereMoreThanFiveYears?!?!]

Susan Littlefield
12-23-2011, 07:51 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.

Yep.

Maryn
12-23-2011, 08:43 PM
I have a bunch of posts, yet it's generally agreed that I don't know jack. There's no reason to let a high post count intimidate you or otherwise change what you might post. People with a dozen posts get the same modly protection as those with thousands.

Maryn, pretending she added something to the conversation

quicklime
12-23-2011, 08:47 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.


I've seen plenty of disagreement with established posters. JAR is a magnet for it. At the same time, there's ways to disagree. Generally, I haven't seen people jump all over a poster, including a newb, for simply disagreeing or not understanding. The folks who get treated "poorly" are the ones who ask for advice then become hostile, dismissive, etc.

Which is usually more indicative of functional ego than functional brain.


I realize that isn't always the case, but I've seen way more of this than the notion old-timers here are throwing hissy fits because a newbie doesn't march in lock-step with them.

quicklime
12-23-2011, 08:55 PM
I have a bunch of posts, yet it's generally agreed that I don't know jack. There's no reason to let a high post count intimidate you or otherwise change what you might post. People with a dozen posts get the same modly protection as those with thousands.

Maryn, pretending she added something to the conversation


absolutely. 10,000 posts might mean the guy behind the monitor is a best-seller, but it could also mean he really, really needs a fucking hobby so he gets out of his mom's basement.

6 posts might mean he's just learning to shave, and decided to be a writer one day after dropping mushrooms and dreaming he was a writing unicorn Scarlett Johanssen fell madly in love with, or it could mean he's a MFA with a best-seller who decided to sign up and try to give something back.

The whole "post-count argument" is bullshit, either the "more postses means more smartses" occasionally implied, or, more often, the straw-man argument that anyone who you disagree with is either just padding their post count, or judging you by theirs. Count is a weak indicator, if that. The one thing it really and absolutely means is that person posts a lot..or a little. Any assumptions as to why they post so much are just that, assumptions. "that they have sooper-knowledge", or even that they assume they do, is just one more assumption.

Any advice here is just like getting a critique--some will be golden, some will be pretty good, and some will be absolutely worthless. Its up to you to try to decide who is who, and whom you would listen to if several pieces of advice appear to conflict.

LindaJeanne
12-23-2011, 09:07 PM
Personally, I found the entitlement issue coming from the 'old-timers' - their own version of Golden Words. Disagreeing with someone who has a kazillion posts or has been here since the dawn of time does not make one a 'speshful flower'. It can actually mean one has a functioning brain.

Going back to lurkdom now.
Interesting.

As someone with a low post-count and recent join-date, I've never experienced this problem.

Kitty27
12-23-2011, 09:21 PM
As a long time member and Mod,I also think some are too sensitive. There are posters here who are naturally blunt. They speak that way in life and do the same on the board. In other words,they aren't going to sugarcoat things. They don't mean any harm but some sensitive souls take it as " OMG,they HATE me!"

There are also newbies who completely disregard the rules of the board and when AW offers a cold dose of home training,they swear that they are being persecuted.

As for those with Golden Word/Entitlement issues,I would think that AW functions as a cold splash of reality and helps more than it harms.That attitude that your work is holy writ won't last long round these parts.

Some have bought into the hype of people becoming famous for nothing and winning things like AI. The ensuing instant fame has fooled many and they think that can be applied to writing. They don't see the downside like how the Kardashians are being savaged and Fantasia,Jordin Sparks,Ruben Studdard haven't had a career in forever. Writing is hard work that requires perseverance, accepting constructive criticism,and putting in work. When they see the reality,it's easier to take refuge in anger than admit this is going to be MUCH harder than they originally thought.


Success stories like Amanda Hocking's have some starry eyed and when wiser and experienced members tell them that this is a once in a life time situation,out comes the butt-hurt. I believe that members with a proven track record and have been in the publishing industry should absolutely be given consideration. Not that their words are the be all and end all,but the words of a person who knows what they are doing carries a lot of weight with me.

Monkey
12-23-2011, 09:36 PM
It would really suck to imagine that people based their opinion of my posts on how many posts I've made rather than the content therein, quantity instead of quality.

Whether my point is good, bad, or ugly, I'd like feedback based on what I said and not the little numbers under my name. I'm sure those with a really low post count feel the same, and in my experience, that's how it works around here.

shadowwalker
12-23-2011, 09:37 PM
The folks who get treated "poorly" are the ones who ask for advice then become hostile, dismissive, etc.

Which is usually more indicative of functional ego than functional brain.

What I've seen has been derisive dismissal by the old-timers (who seem the fondest of calling people "speshul flowers"). This is particularly evident when someone decides not to follow the advice given (where this Golden Word thing gets reversed) or takes umbrage at the way they're being talked to (old-timers are evidently entitled to be rude and nasty for the advisee's 'own good'). I have enough experience and self-confidence not to be intimidated by it, but I feel for the newbie who does not. I went into lurk mode because it not only took away the temptation to get embroiled in the drama, but because I just don't believe in operating that way.

Yes, there are newbies who think they know it all, and there are self-pub advocates who continually treat non-SPs as fools (and vice versa) - but those are easily recognized for what they are. Some learn, some don't. And to claim they are the majority of the "entitled" is ignoring reality; it's like blaming the victim.

The Lonely One
12-23-2011, 10:01 PM
The most useful thing AW has taught me about forums is the back button. Sometimes it's better not to inject yourself into something you know you'll get heated up about, especially if you already know it'll end in tragedy. I've learned to walk away from stalemates.

As for bluntness, some people are blunt, and some people use bluntness as an excuse to throw social grace out the window. I've seen plenty of both here.

amergina
12-23-2011, 10:36 PM
It's funny, I have a 2007 join-date, yet I still feel like an AW newbie.

I think people have good days and bad days. I know I do. And people have buttons that set them off. I know I do. I also know I've had the snark beast come out of me, though I do try to dial it back...

Like anywhere else, personalities will clash and feelings will be hurt from time to time. Human nature being what it is, and text-based communication being what it is.

AW is far calmer and nicer than many watering holes on the Internet.

CrastersBabies
12-24-2011, 01:57 AM
The most useful thing AW has taught me about forums is the back button. Sometimes it's better not to inject yourself into something you know you'll get heated up about, especially if you already know it'll end in tragedy. I've learned to walk away from stalemates.

As for bluntness, some people are blunt, and some people use bluntness as an excuse to throw social grace out the window. I've seen plenty of both here.

Very true words. I have a big problem with people who think that because some people are naturally "blunt" it gives them some kind of magical "free pass" to be Lord/Lady of the Douche.

I also don't prescribe to the, "I'm overly blunt (or "I'm a b****) and that's just who I am, get over it." If you're really that proud of something like that, honestly? I think you need professional help. If you keep doing it knowing you're being rude, then what gives? Either you're too lazy to check yourself or you get a huge net'boner over the power trip. Or maybe it's something else? I don't know.

There is a difference (to me) between 'being honest' and being an a$$hole about it. And I struggle to see why some folks think they need to shame someone into "doing right by the laws and regulations of writing," whether it's during critique or in a random response to a thread. It's like the skinny girl on the bus trying to shame an overweight man/woman into not eating by calling them disgusting and giving them "tough love."

Funny how that doesn't work. Ever.

Tact can go a long ways. I'm certainly not perfect, but after reading this thread, I'm willing to take an extra minute before I hit "send" to see if I'm being a grade-A jerkwad to someone.

The funny thing is, the few people who are on my ignore list aren't posting at all on this thread. Probably doesn't apply to them. Either they don't get it or they don't care. Not much you can do about that except for utilize the ignore list and count your blessings. :)

The Lonely One
12-24-2011, 02:13 AM
Ding-ding-ding. Tact. Word of the day.

I'm a chronic post editor. Mainly because I realize after posting I could reword to be less aggressive or be more direct or clear. But it usually involves my thoughts toward how other people will react.

Advice is advice. MOST of what we post on these boards is opinion, so why the need to be aggressive about anything?

One thing that has always bothered me, and something I refuse to accept, is the whole writer/editor being a "socially awkward introvert" thing as an excuse as to how they treat others. It isn't that hard to be considerate when you interact, and by using your personality as an excuse just makes you look like a sad cliche of a person.

I had an editor that played the whole "I'm awkward" thing up, never included salutations, greetings, whole thoughts or praise in an email to me. They would be like "X should be capitalized." And nothing else, about a story I broke over the competition, and one which I was sure was important to our readership. Okay, fair enough on the typo. But your night editor didn't catch it either. And how about opening the email with my name, ending it with yours? Or just walking three feet and addressing me with your concerns?

I just don't get it. Sometimes being blunt helps and is important, and trust me it is appreciated (at least by me) in those instances. But on the flip side I've seen it used as a way to deny the truth, which is "I'm being mean."

Flicka
12-24-2011, 02:21 AM
I've honestly seen very little of the behaviour described here (and I've lurked for quite some time). It is tempting sometimes to be snarky but it rarely has any effect except feeding our own ego. I know this and I also know I still do it. Other people do it too, but I can't stop them. I can, however, stop myself.

All I wanted to say is that reading this has made me think even more before posting, and that I really hope that you'll all tell me if I ever become rude, snarky or act like I can't handle criticism.

thebloodfiend
12-24-2011, 02:33 AM
I'm quite sarcastic and cynical in person, but I try to retain a bit of tact in all of my conversations with others. Funnily enough, my friends took to calling me Simon Cowell for a while because I'm highly critical.

I think you can be blunt and tactful. But there's no excuse for being rude.

Bartholomew
12-24-2011, 03:03 AM
Is it me--or has this site experienced a sharp uptick in members who aim to misbehave, and not in a cool, anti-Alliance, Mal Reynolds kinda way? Or have divalicious members always been around in the same numbers?

(Mods, if you feel the tone and/or subject of the post is inappropriate, feel free to delete.)

Mods here don't delete things. It's a very nice, anti-censorship policy.

I took a haitus to focus on selling the pile of short stories I'd finished (and, you know, school) and poked my head back in to ask a question about database research--which promptly got my nose bitten off a few posters whose names I didn't recognize. I'd say your answer is "yes."

Mr Flibble
12-24-2011, 03:15 AM
i had a WOW character called Divalicious.....


Seems no more than normal to me.

CrastersBabies
12-24-2011, 04:27 AM
Ding-ding-ding. Tact. Word of the day.

I'm a chronic post editor. Mainly because I realize after posting I could reword to be less aggressive or be more direct or clear. But it usually involves my thoughts toward how other people will react.

Advice is advice. MOST of what we post on these boards is opinion, so why the need to be aggressive about anything?

One thing that has always bothered me, and something I refuse to accept, is the whole writer/editor being a "socially awkward introvert" thing as an excuse as to how they treat others. It isn't that hard to be considerate when you interact, and by using your personality as an excuse just makes you look like a sad cliche of a person.

I had an editor that played the whole "I'm awkward" thing up, never included salutations, greetings, whole thoughts or praise in an email to me. They would be like "X should be capitalized." And nothing else, about a story I broke over the competition, and one which I was sure was important to our readership. Okay, fair enough on the typo. But your night editor didn't catch it either. And how about opening the email with my name, ending it with yours? Or just walking three feet and addressing me with your concerns?

I just don't get it. Sometimes being blunt helps and is important, and trust me it is appreciated (at least by me) in those instances. But on the flip side I've seen it used as a way to deny the truth, which is "I'm being mean."

Criticism is just that and when you put your work out there, you have to be willing to hear some hard truths. I certainly don't expect people to blow kittens and flowers up my duff here. That's just as harmful (imho) to the creative process as receiving poor criticism.

I just wanted to get that out there. I don't think anyone's asking to have things sugar-coated, but nobody's asking to be treated like roadkill either.

But, yeah, I agree with the whole, "I'm an artist and because of that I have the right to be a twat-waffle, hur hur."

I just chalk that up to immaturity.

The Lonely One
12-24-2011, 05:16 AM
Criticism is just that and when you put your work out there, you have to be willing to hear some hard truths. I certainly don't expect people to blow kittens and flowers up my duff here. That's just as harmful (imho) to the creative process as receiving poor criticism.

I just wanted to get that out there. I don't think anyone's asking to have things sugar-coated, but nobody's asking to be treated like roadkill either.

But, yeah, I agree with the whole, "I'm an artist and because of that I have the right to be a twat-waffle, hur hur."

I just chalk that up to immaturity.

Yeah, agree with all this.

Elaine Margarett
12-24-2011, 06:05 AM
absolutely. 10,000 posts might mean the guy behind the monitor is a best-seller, but it could also mean he really, really needs a fucking hobby so he gets out of his mom's basement.

6 posts might mean he's just learning to shave, and decided to be a writer one day after dropping mushrooms and dreaming he was a writing unicorn Scarlett Johanssen fell madly in love with, or it could mean he's a MFA with a best-seller who decided to sign up and try to give something back.

The whole "post-count argument" is bullshit, either the "more postses means more smartses" occasionally implied, or, more often, the straw-man argument that anyone who you disagree with is either just padding their post count, or judging you by theirs. Count is a weak indicator, if that. The one thing it really and absolutely means is that person posts a lot..or a little. Any assumptions as to why they post so much are just that, assumptions. "that they have sooper-knowledge", or even that they assume they do, is just one more assumption.

.

Or the tens of thousands of posts are people who like listen to their head roar. Who post threads in order to bait others, or who respond in rude and dismissive ways because they feel safe and familar here. Hey, I'm not going to get in the way of someone who *needs* to be at the head of their parade. But I'm not going to be counted as one of their followers, either.

That's what makes the ignore button such a great feature. Please, can I have one for real life? <g>

CrastersBabies
12-24-2011, 06:18 AM
That's what makes the ignore button such a great feature. Please, can I have one [the ignore feature] for real life? <g>

Only if I can too. Good grief! I'd also like to be able to CTRL+Z (undo last command) a few things, but oh well!

Bartholomew
12-24-2011, 07:41 AM
absolutely. 10,000 posts might mean the guy behind the monitor is a best-seller, but it could also mean he really, really needs a fucking hobby so he gets out of his mom's basement.

6 posts might mean he's just learning to shave, and decided to be a writer one day after dropping mushrooms and dreaming he was a writing unicorn Scarlett Johanssen fell madly in love with, or it could mean he's a MFA with a best-seller who decided to sign up and try to give something back.

The whole "post-count argument" is bullshit, either the "more postses means more smartses" occasionally implied, or, more often, the straw-man argument that anyone who you disagree with is either just padding their post count, or judging you by theirs. Count is a weak indicator, if that. The one thing it really and absolutely means is that person posts a lot..or a little. Any assumptions as to why they post so much are just that, assumptions. "that they have sooper-knowledge", or even that they assume they do, is just one more assumption.

Any advice here is just like getting a critique--some will be golden, some will be pretty good, and some will be absolutely worthless. Its up to you to try to decide who is who, and whom you would listen to if several pieces of advice appear to conflict.

A high post count means the use is sexy beyond all belief, descended from at least one (but probably more than one) god, and is capable of (twice per day at minimum) bending reality to his or her whim.

Karen Junker
12-24-2011, 07:48 AM
Only if I can too. Good grief! I'd also like to be able to CTRL+Z (undo last command) a few things, but oh well!

I'm thinking of putting CrastersBabies on my ignore list because *your avatar freaks me out*!

artemis31386
12-24-2011, 09:51 AM
Are you talking about new members, fly-by posters, or long-time members who've suddenly taken a trip to the dark side?

It's not uncommon for new writers to think that the world owes them instant fame and fortune; that's the "outside" perspective of the writing industry that most seem to have. (In my own experience, the uniformed think all book deals start at $1,000,000 and go up from there, while the writers are suddenly on the A-list with every household name you can think of.)

With that attitude as the norm, it's a bit of a reality check to find out that the average advance is far, far less and that fame is as much a pipe dream in writing as it is in any field.

I'm going to interject uninformed new writers, rather than just new. There are those who bother to do the research and yes, they may be a little shocked to find out that it takes years to build the backlist necessary to even make enough in royalties to add up to a what's considered liveable.

Phaeal
12-26-2011, 07:15 PM
I don't notice any particular uptick in snark and entitlement and noobitude. This forum has just the right amount of cattiness and cluelessness for me to get my MDRs without overdose. ;)

Yes, on the whole I'd say AW is a clean and well-lighted place.

kuwisdelu
12-27-2011, 12:38 AM
Ding-ding-ding. Tact. Word of the day.

What's that?

jjdebenedictis
12-27-2011, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by The Lonely One : Ding-ding-ding. Tact. Word of the day.


What's that? Tact: the opposite of attacked. :)

Devil Ledbetter
12-27-2011, 04:24 AM
I'm going to be honest, I haven't noticed any upshoot in newbieness.

This. Other than a couple of trolls in P&CE recently I haven't noticed any such thing. Either I'm hanging out in the right forums or I'm the clueless perpetrator.

AlwaysJuly
12-27-2011, 05:16 AM
I haven't noticed any changes. I find this place pretty low drama, in general, which I appreciate (I go elsewhere on the internet when I need to get my snark on).

scarletpeaches
12-27-2011, 05:24 AM
The funny thing is, the few people who are on my ignore list aren't posting at all on this thread.I'm here now!

CrastersBabies
12-27-2011, 05:25 AM
I'm here now!

shoos you out....

Good grief, woman. I can't say how awesome you are because you swore me to secrecy. :)

(sighs)

scarletpeaches
12-27-2011, 05:26 AM
If everyone on AW puts me on ignore, I cease to exist.

Devil Ledbetter
12-27-2011, 06:22 AM
If everyone on AW puts me on ignore, I cease to exist.

I never put anyone on ignore. I make them put me on ignore.

kuwisdelu
12-27-2011, 06:25 AM
I never put anyone on ignore. I make them put me on ignore.

I wonder who has me on ignore...

I've never put anyone on ignore yet, either.

seun
12-27-2011, 04:08 PM
I've never put anyone on ignore yet, either.

Neither have I. Been tempted once or twice, but then I just laugh and move on.

AlwaysJuly
12-27-2011, 05:59 PM
I would never put anyone on ignore. If someone is going to say crazy/foolish/melodramatic things, I WANT TO KNOW.

I can just never stand to be left out.

Captcha
12-27-2011, 07:06 PM
I tried ignore, but it really only works if EVERYONE ignores that person. Otherwise, there are responses to the ignored post and I can't understand them, etc. There are some members who make me carefully consider whether I want to continue with a thread, but I think it makes more sense for me to leave the thread entirely than to ignore one person who's 'contributing' to it.

Susan Littlefield
12-27-2011, 07:51 PM
Way I see, if I put people on ignore, then I'm missing part of a conversation. However, I always have the choice whether to respond or not to respond.

So, I don't use the ignore button.

Except for Scarlet, Devil, and kuwisdelu, but...please.....don't tell 'em. :D :evil

scarletpeaches
12-27-2011, 08:10 PM
I heard that! :rant:

Elaine Margarett
12-27-2011, 08:13 PM
This is the only board I've belonged to that has an ignore feature. I must admit, I'm intrigued by it.

Granted, I don't get around much in the cyber world. Probably just as well. <g>

mscelina
12-27-2011, 08:22 PM
The ignore feature is overrated. You get pissed off by what someone is saying, so you put them on ignore. Then you spend the next two days wondering what they said about you after you put them on ignore, so you sneak them OFF ignore, real quiet like, and discover that--they didn't say ANYTHING about you while you were ignoring them.

So you leave them off ignore and just don't say anything about it.

As far as the OT goes--I'm not noticing any kind of a crazy entitlement mentality rushing around AW. I do see a lot of people regurgitating opinions about things they have no experience with, but that's a microcosm of the internet in general. And, quite frankly, I find the AW newbies who complain about having to make 50 posts before they can post in SYW a little funny.

As for the old-timers with lots of posts, we occasionally get into tiffs with other folks just like any other poster. The difference is that old-timers rarely hold a permanent grudge against someone they snipe at. That's why they/we have all these big posting numbers--because we move on and get over it.

Probably sage advice for anyone who's feeling a little thin-skinned at the moment.

The main thing, however, about AW to remember is: no matter how much YOU know about writing and publishing, there's always several other people on the board who know more. Sometimes a LOT more. AW is such a valuable resource for anyone involved with writing--at whatever level they're at. I routinely recommend to my new writers at Musa to join AW, because the opportunities for research and advice here are unsurpassed on the web--in my experience at least.

And don't let Scarlett fool you. The above ^^^ includes her as well.

Amadan
12-27-2011, 08:32 PM
The ignore feature is overrated. You get pissed off by what someone is saying, so you put them on ignore. Then you spend the next two days wondering what they said about you after you put them on ignore, so you sneak them OFF ignore, real quiet like, and discover that--they didn't say ANYTHING about you while you were ignoring them.

Heh... at least here I haven't seen the ostentatious pronouncements that "I AM PUTTING YOU ON IGNORE! SO THERE! NEENER NEENER! I CAN'T HEEEAAARR YOU!"

On Usenet, people used to start entire threads boasting about how so-and-so was now in their killfile and I'll bet so-and-so is just raging at me right now that I can't read what so-and-so is saying but I totally don't care because I am ignoring so-and-so DO YOU HEAR ME IGNORING YOU MOTHERF&%$#@*&!?!



I do see a lot of people regurgitating opinions about things they have no experience with

:P

shadowwalker
12-27-2011, 09:26 PM
Probably sage advice for anyone who's feeling a little thin-skinned at the moment.

I think this is part of the problem I've seen - this idea that if someone is offended by rudeness or snarkiness they're almost automatically assumed to be 'thin-skinned', when in reality they're simply expecting people to behave like well-brought-up adults (or at least, adults who have learned how to behave in public). It's why I went into lurking (and probably where I really should stay) - I just got tired of people acting like a-hats and then saying those who called them on it were acting like 'speshful flowers' or some other juvenile and demeaning name.


The main thing, however, about AW to remember is: no matter how much YOU know about writing and publishing, there's always several other people on the board who know more.

I just think that bears repeating. :)

jjdebenedictis
12-27-2011, 10:39 PM
On Usenet, people used to start entire threads boasting about how so-and-so was now in their killfile and I'll bet so-and-so is just raging at me right now that I can't read what so-and-so is saying but I totally don't care because I am ignoring so-and-so DO YOU HEAR ME IGNORING YOU MOTHERF&%$#@*&!?!Ah, yes, a non-romantic version of, "I'm SO over my ex. SO over. I just couldn't care less about him/her. You make sure to tell him/her how furiously, angrily, obsessively OVER him/her I am, okay?"

Or, to put it another way, it's like some of Beyonce's songs.

lucidzfl
12-28-2011, 12:00 AM
I kind of assumes this whole thread was about scarlet peaches. She is always mean to me!

Ctairo
12-28-2011, 07:22 PM
I've used the ignore feature once. It had nothing to do with being thin skinned and everything to do with being outright attacked by someone who lashed out at me during a crit. And even after taking into account posting work for critique is scary and hard and nerve-racking, the interaction didn't sit well with me because yes, I expect people to bring their manners - not their [internet] personas - to a writing forum.

CrastersBabies
12-28-2011, 09:15 PM
Hahah at some of the ignore feature comments. Nobody bothers me that much to obsess over it. I ignore and move on. If I see another poster responding to quoted text from that person, I'll usually skim past it.

I just don't have time for drama BS, and most of the people on my ignore list seem to exist just to criticize others in a truly rude, thoughtless way. I have 4 people on my ignore list. I think that's the biggest "ignore list" I've ever had, anywhere, to be honest, but this forum is a pretty big place. :)

I haven't lost a wink of sleep over it, or over them, but prefer to avoid their baiting of members into nastiness and borderline psychotic behavior. Why bother when I can just click and make them go away forever? If only life had this function. I'd go wait outside the Kardashian home and start clicking.

And I agree, it's not about being thin-skinned. For me, it's about the temptation of losing my s*** on someone who is a true douchebag and probably getting booted off the board. I don't want to feed into that energy, so I block it.

Phaeal
12-28-2011, 10:55 PM
I don't ignore anybody. I like watching fools fall all over themselves. :D

Karen Junker
12-28-2011, 11:30 PM
The main thing, however, about AW to remember is: no matter how much YOU know about writing and publishing, there's always several other people on the board who know more. Sometimes a LOT more.

This is why I sometimes say in my posts that I was an editor for a small romance epub, or that I read slush for a major NY SF publisher, or that I put on a writers' workshop--that way, people know where I'm coming from and they can weigh the value of my opinion based on my (somewhat limited) expertise.

As for the ignore feature, I find it useful in that I no longer have to read what I think of as yucky stuff. I have discovered that I'm hyper-sensitive to certain images that are occasionally invoked by some posters, so I simply ignore them and have a much calmer day as a result.

scarletpeaches
12-28-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't ignore anyone. I'd be too curious about what they're saying about me.

As Oscar Wilde said, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

Rachel77
12-29-2011, 12:12 AM
This is the only board I've belonged to that has an ignore feature. I must admit, I'm intrigued by it.

Granted, I don't get around much in the cyber world. Probably just as well. <g>

Ravelry (a knitting/crochet website) has an ignore feature for its forums. And occasionally some members will create avatars for themselves that say, "You are ignoring this user", which then freaks people out. ("OMG, I'm ignoring that person? I don't remember putting that person on 'ignore'. Oh wait...")

scarletpeaches
12-29-2011, 12:18 AM
I used to belong to a site that used the ignore feature. Ignored members' posts weren't even flagged, as they are here. If someone else quoted an ignored post, that too was ignored and unflagged.

The same board also had no mods, reasoning that people could just ignore people they didn't like, and get over it if someone said something to cause offence.

Anninyn
12-29-2011, 03:24 AM
Everyone I've used the ignore button for has either been banned or flounced within days of me ignoring them.

Can I call it, or can I call it?

The Lonely One
12-29-2011, 03:55 AM
A positive comment:

AW has been one of the most tolerant, understanding places I've ever frequented on the net. You can use whatever language seems appropriate to you, within reason and with taste, and if you say something silly you'll get checked by various authors with industry knowledge.

It's one of the few places online that misinformation doesn't fly and opinions rarely become the subject of something obscene (usually our flames here are just stalemates of opinion that break down into semantics).

There are some people who sort of get out of hand, but I've never used the ignore feature because I truly believe I can come to SOME kind of mutual understanding with anyone. Or at least I hope I can. It's just my nature to seek mediation rather than shun. Luckily most people who stick around AW are intelligent enough to find a middle ground with, or agree to disagree, or figure out what it is that has someone being so aggressive or rude.

CrastersBabies
12-29-2011, 05:56 AM
I don't ignore anybody. I like watching fools fall all over themselves. :D

I expect that from someone with a Baltar avatar. (I kid, I kid! .... kind of)

:D

But, in all seriousness, I love this attitude as well. I just can't DO it. I don't have your self-control. Haha.

OtterFactory
12-29-2011, 06:47 AM
I expect that from someone with a Baltar avatar. (I kid, I kid! .... kind of)

:D

Is it just me or can you see a blonde in a red dress at the top-left edge when you scroll down really fast?
























;)

CrastersBabies
12-29-2011, 09:49 AM
Is it just me or can you see a blonde in a red dress at the top-left edge when you scroll down really fast?

;)

I'm going to deny that. Yupyup, just a figment of my imagination....

albeit a very gorgeous one.

blacbird
12-29-2011, 10:14 AM
Luckily most people who stick around AW are intelligent enough to find a middle ground with, or agree to disagree, or figure out what it is that has someone being so aggressive or rude.

Well, oh yeah???????????

caw

benbradley
12-29-2011, 11:16 AM
This thread isn't locked yet??? I'm SHOCKED, I tell you!

Shocked, like, OMG.



Is it locked yet? No? OMG!

crunchyblanket
12-29-2011, 02:14 PM
Personally, I have small tits, self respect and the arse of a rhino. I'm working on the rest. :D


Oh hi, are you me?



I'm going to be honest, I haven't noticed any upshoot in newbieness.


Me neither. Mind you, I've not even been here a year yet, so it's entirely possible that I'm part of the problem, or just plain haven't paid attention. It seems like a pretty chill place, trolls notwithstanding. The occasional bit of heat and snark is tame compared to some of the pits I've posted in.

I don't like to 'ignore' people who irritate me. Partly because I think it's valuable to hear from people you disagree with, who don't share your worldview, because otherwise you surround yourself with 'yes-men' and dig yourself a comfortable little hole removed from reality. And secondly, dealing with irritants teaches me patience and tact and tolerance. Sometimes. And sometimes, I just yell bad words at the computer.



The main thing, however, about AW to remember is: no matter how much YOU know about writing and publishing, there's always several other people on the board who know more.


Amen to this, 'cos I know approximately fuck-all. I've got to learn somewhere.

aruna
12-29-2011, 02:37 PM
A positive comment:

AW has been one of the most tolerant, understanding places I've ever frequented on the net. You can use whatever language seems appropriate to you, within reason and with taste, and if you say something silly you'll get checked by various authors with industry knowledge.

.

Before joining AW I was a member of the Amazon Reviewer boards. Back then, theere were several of them on its own site, not like now, and there was a fixed "community" of reviewers. You see all those "too ten" and "top 100" revieweres? Those were the member. But there were also lots of crazies, and as it was not moderated all hell would break loose every now and then. Where were people with multiple IDs who would actually fight with each other.

There was one woman, a prolific reviewer who used the photo of a famous photo model as her avatar; she wrote great reviews a,d we actually had a provate email friendship going for about ayear -- she used to write me these really sweet, warm caring mails. She claimed to be a relative of Renoir, and French. (Renoir "was" her last name). And then she came to the boards; and then she was outed as having not only stolen the model's photo, but that all her reviews were plagiarised. And then she turned really nasty, creating multiple personalities stalking people.

The flame wars I witnessed with her were terrible indeed. Once, a few years ago, I mentioned her name on Aw and next thing I knew, she was posting here! I got the fright of my life. I deleted my post and she disappeared again. But there are still traes of her various ID's all over the internet. One of the members of that board, infact, is writing a book about her -- she mailed me for information recently.
Then I came to Aw andit was like walking into the garden of Eden.

aruna
12-29-2011, 02:52 PM
Out of curiosity I googled that woman's name. The internet is still full of her.
Here are some of the posts about her:

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TJIAQ4SA064TKHPCC

This is her profile, again using a fake photo (she was 32 in the 90's when we first corresponded; she is still 32!)

http://www.care2.com/c2c/people/profile.html?pid=708517521

http://boardreader.com/thread/The_Infamous_Gabrielle_Renoir_Resurfaces_5kxq5X24q hylhvb3nv6.html

She has written a book, which is on goodreads:

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/48147-the-real-thing-a-story-of-sex-sapphires-and-second-chances

And this is her post in the NEPAT thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=378872&postcount=1068

A total nutcase!

bearilou
12-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Out of curiosity I googled that woman's name. The internet is still full of her.
Here are some of the posts about her:

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TJIAQ4SA064TKHPCC

This is her profile, again using a fake photo (she was 32 in the 90's when we first corresponded; she is still 32!)

http://www.care2.com/c2c/people/profile.html?pid=708517521

http://boardreader.com/thread/The_Infamous_Gabrielle_Renoir_Resurfaces_5kxq5X24q hylhvb3nv6.html

She has written a book, which is on goodreads:

http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/48147-the-real-thing-a-story-of-sex-sapphires-and-second-chances

And this is her post in the NEPAT thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=378872&postcount=1068

A total nutcase!

:Jaw: ...wow

Gilroy Cullen
12-29-2011, 04:52 PM
The Matrix: Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill
There was a time, before the internet, where people were encouraged to write out their feelings in letters, then burn/shred/destroy them. It allowed said feelings to be expressed but never subject anyone to them.

With the advent of the internet, such restraint died.

I remember my early years online - okay, so that was like the late 80s early 90s - where I followed the above advice. I wrote the email... then I deleted it. I wrote a usenet post, then deleted it. If something got heated, I walked away from the computer for 24 hours to cool down. Others did the same.


I missed that restraint. Until I came here and found many people who understand it.

Anninyn
12-29-2011, 06:01 PM
There was a time, before the internet, where people were encouraged to write out their feelings in letters, then burn/shred/destroy them. It allowed said feelings to be expressed but never subject anyone to them.

With the advent of the internet, such restraint died.

I remember my early years online - okay, so that was like the late 80s early 90s - where I followed the above advice. I wrote the email... then I deleted it. I wrote a usenet post, then deleted it. If something got heated, I walked away from the computer for 24 hours to cool down. Others did the same.


I missed that restraint. Until I came here and found many people who understand it.

I do that. There have been many times I have typed out a long and venemous screed with lots of swearing. I then hit the 'back' button and never post it.

Mr Flibble
12-29-2011, 06:10 PM
A positive comment:

AW has been one of the most tolerant, understanding places I've ever frequented on the net.


Amen to that. I mean I've had my *cough* moments, but Mac and Medi are very forgiving. Very, very forgiving :D

And I am truly grateful for that, because this is the place where I learn the most about all aspects of writing. Without it I'd still be floundering in a sea of adverbs and head hopping and, ugh, all sorts.

I can't say precisely where that's taken me (Iz Sekrit), but I wouldn't have got there without this place.

LindaJeanne
12-29-2011, 06:31 PM
:) AW may have it's flamewars, but in general, in the short time I've been here it's seemed a positive and friendly place. Most people seem to handle things well most of the time.


There was one woman, a prolific reviewer who used the photo of a famous photo model as her avatar; she wrote great reviews a,d we actually had a provate email friendship going for about ayear -- she used to write me these really sweet, warm caring mails. She claimed to be a relative of Renoir, and French. (Renoir "was" her last name). And then she came to the boards; and then she was outed as having not only stolen the model's photo, but that all her reviews were plagiarised. And then she turned really nasty, creating multiple personalities stalking people.

I had to check your links, because this sounds SO much like someone from elsewhere-on-the-web (not the writing community) last year (claiming a model's photograph, acting warm and friendly and wonderful, getting caught in numerous lies, and turning nasty-crazy cyber-stalking on lots of people, with multiple fake identities to do so.)

The name, location, photo, and age all being different means nothing of course. But the obsessions are also different. Then again, the personality seems frighteningly similar.

I don't know which is scarier -- if this is the same nut-job or a different one.

Ugh.

aruna
12-29-2011, 07:01 PM
Linda, it's probably the same. She has many aliases. pm me the name, if you like, and I'll tell you if I recognise it.

jaksen
12-29-2011, 07:32 PM
On a totally different (but slightly related) note:

I wonder how many posters on this thread have other posters on this thread on ignore.

I don't have anyone on ignore, though I think one person has me on ignore. It was a person who was happy to be published by PA. I sent him (her?) an invitation to read the Bewares Section. I prob. shouldn't have done that but I was hoping to avert a tragedy.

Alas, from what I've seen so far, he (she) did go with PA.

Her life, her tragedy. I won't do that again.


(I don't go around offering advice on PA, but this particular person seemed so happy when they announced they were finally published in the Promotions and Announcements thread. Other posters were wishing him (her) much success. My reaction was what?? So I think I sort of burst their happiness balloon.)

I shall not do that again.

Mr Flibble
12-29-2011, 07:43 PM
Linda, it's probably the same. She has many aliases. pm me the name, if you like, and I'll tell you if I recognise it.


I can console myself with he thought that I may be nuts, but I ain't THAT nuts :D

I suspect I'm on a few ignore lists, cos I can be a dick. I think I have one person on mine, purely for the sake of my blood pressure, but we don;t usually hang in the same places anyway.

Phaeal
12-29-2011, 07:58 PM
Is it just me or can you see a blonde in a red dress at the top-left edge when you scroll down really fast?

;)

What blonde? I don't see any blonde in my avatar! In fact, I've never dated a blonde in my life! Especially in a red dress.

I look much better in blue.

OtterFactory
12-29-2011, 09:01 PM
What blonde? I don't see any blonde in my avatar! In fact, I've never dated a blonde in my life! Especially in a red dress.

I look much better in blue.

Don't make me angry, Phael. You won't like me when I'm angry!



(Incidentally, that would be a perfect title for this thread.)

Amadan
12-29-2011, 09:15 PM
On a totally different (but slightly related) note:

I wonder how many posters on this thread have other posters on this thread on ignore.

I'M IGNORING YO- oh, wait.


Nah, I've never used the ignore feature. Anyone who pisses me off that much usually ends up getting booted pretty quickly. Also, I mostly ignore P&CE (actually, I think I got locked out of there once for pissing someone off, and have never asked to be let back in). Since the most aggravating individuals never post anywhere else, I guess that's pretty much the same as an ignore list. :D

Ctairo
12-29-2011, 09:19 PM
I don't like to 'ignore' people who irritate me. Partly because I think it's valuable to hear from people you disagree with, who don't share your worldview, because otherwise you surround yourself with 'yes-men' and dig yourself a comfortable little hole removed from reality. And secondly, dealing with irritants teaches me patience and tact and tolerance. Sometimes. And sometimes, I just yell bad words at the computer.

Amen to this, 'cos I know approximately fuck-all. I've got to learn somewhere.

Motto. I can deal with annoying, so those people aren't going on ignore. Asshattery? Um, pass.


I think the entitlement/ignorance-of-reality syndrome comes from two sources:

1. The booming trend in self-publishing with its attendant cheerleaders, convincing a lot of aspiring writers who've never done the work of researching the publishing industry that all they need is to hit the right magic formula and they too will be able to live off of sales of their $0.99 Kindle books. (Remember ten years back or so when there were all those books about how anyone could quit their job and just spend a few hours a day selling stuff on eBay?)

2. More and more aspiring writers are young people migrating over from the fan fiction community, where it's very easy to attract a large number of adoring fans telling you how awesome your writing is and that you write better than Stephanie Meyer!!1!1! So they show up here accustomed to squees and hugs and fawning, and find out that this is a much tougher crowd and their writing is a lot crappier than they thought it was.


Yes, and I'll just point out, for the OP's benefit, that "half-blood" happens to be a term from Harry Potter.

**meaningful look**

In other words, Amadan's hit the nail on the head, I think.

Thankfully, young people usually grow out of their affront at the lack of adulation the world provides. There is hope for such as these.


I blame Simon Cowell.

Ah good points about fan-fiction, self-publishing, and insta-fame. Half-blood went right over my head despite knowing who the half-blood prince is.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it understand that its prose is not golden.

QFT. Also, :roll:


The forum always gets its share of "I'm a writing genius, how dare you disagree with me". It's been that way since I joined, rather than being something that's only just happened. You may be remembering the past in a rose-tinted way, or it may be you just didn't notice it until now. But it's not new and it goes with the territory of being a popular forum.


Or maybe I've been front and center in recent months rather than on the sidelines as in the past... I've witnessed divas previously and the attendant flounces, but there seem to be more*. That said, I absolutely agree posters here, for the most part, are well behaved. The abundance of good behavior may contribute to making bad behavior stand out. I also realized I've been online long enough to expect everyone else has a similar history or simply understands what makes for acceptable interaction. I need to remember forum newbies may be new to online activity as well.

BTW, have I mentioned how happy I am we're having this conversation?

*Divas. Number of flounces TBD.

The Lonely One
12-29-2011, 10:50 PM
This thread isn't locked yet??? I'm SHOCKED, I tell you!

Shocked, like, OMG.



Is it locked yet? No? OMG!

That it isn't locked yet just proves my point that AW is a safe-haven on the net. Sometimes I'd rather not leave. It's dangerous out there!


Amen to that. I mean I've had my *cough* moments, but Mac and Medi are very forgiving. Very, very forgiving :D

And I am truly grateful for that, because this is the place where I learn the most about all aspects of writing. Without it I'd still be floundering in a sea of adverbs and head hopping and, ugh, all sorts.

I can't say precisely where that's taken me (Iz Sekrit), but I wouldn't have got there without this place.

Yep. Same.

Kweei
12-30-2011, 12:02 AM
On a totally different (but slightly related) note:

I wonder how many posters on this thread have other posters on this thread on ignore.

I'm pretty quiet on the boards, but even if I posted more, I don't tend to put people on ignore. That's always the way I've been.

Whenever I see something going on here that takes away from my experience, I just don't go to that thread and wait until people calm down. That usually works for me.

Overall, I enjoy coming here though. We all need a haven. Writing can be lonely.

crunchyblanket
12-30-2011, 12:05 AM
Motto. I can deal with annoying, so those people aren't going on ignore. Asshattery? Um, pass.

I've not come across a total asshat here yet. I can't pretend I'll be so zen about it if I do ;)

jjdebenedictis
12-30-2011, 01:05 AM
I didn't even know there was an ignore function, until I got involved in this thread. I've certainly never had cause to use it. That speaks well of the culture of AW! :)

LindaJeanne
12-30-2011, 01:10 AM
I wonder how many posters on this thread have other posters on this thread on ignore.


Huh. Supposedly this thread has five pages of responses, but I can't see a single post in it.

Odd.


;)

KTC
12-30-2011, 02:29 PM
I don`t notice things.

KTC
12-30-2011, 02:30 PM
I've not come across a total asshat here yet. I can't pretend I'll be so zen about it if I do ;)

but I thought I was being splendidly asshatingly asshat. Are you telling me I`m failing

Gilroy Cullen
12-30-2011, 04:55 PM
There's an ignore function?

Honestly, I think I'm too new to have landed on the ignore list of anyone yet. Of course, I try to remain cordial to everyone where I can.

That doesn't mean I won't ruffle feathers. Everyone does from time to time. I'll just try to do it with as little fanfare as possible. :flag:

crunchyblanket
12-30-2011, 10:51 PM
Sorry KTC, did you say something? ;)