Police Investigation of Car Accident involving Alcohol

ashlynnb

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Sorry for the long thread title!
I'm looking for someone who might know a bit more about what kind of investigation goes into a car accident where snowy/icy conditions coupled with alcohol are contributing factors.
My premise is a girl who was in the car with her drunk mother, her mom was driving too fast, hit a patch of ice and spun out of control. The mom ends up passing because she wasn't wearing a seat belt.
How would the daughter be involved in the investigation...would she be questioned by the police? Would her father HAVE to be present if she was only 14? And for that matter, what might they ask the husband/father if anything?

Thanks, I just want to make sure that my story is making sense and the cops are handling the situation realistically.
 

ironmikezero

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The daughter would be interviewed as a witness; the father (or guardian) would be present if available (if not available, it'll depend upon the applicable state law and established LE agency policies/protocols).

The focus of the questions would be about the operator's behavior (drinking, etc.) immediately prior to the incident.

An autopsy would confirm the decedent's blood alcohol level.
 

jclarkdawe

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Sorry for the long thread title!
I'm looking for someone who might know a bit more about what kind of investigation goes into a car accident where snowy/icy conditions coupled with alcohol are contributing factors.
My premise is a girl who was in the car with her drunk mother, her mom was driving too fast, hit a patch of ice and spun out of control. The mom ends up passing because she wasn't wearing a seat belt. Dead at the scene or transported to the hospital? You're going to have to work really hard to get a fatal from winter weather accidents. You just can't get the speed you can on dry roads. And spinning out kills speed before hitting something solid, increasing survivability.

How would the daughter be involved in the investigation...would she be questioned by the police? If she was in an accident with a fatal, or near fatal, she'd be backboarded and transported to the hospital. Although in theory you can have someone with no injuries in the same car as a fatal, it isn't likely, and the EMTs are going to assume injuries, even if she says she isn't. Especially in the case of a minor. The doctors won't clear her for questioning by the police for a couple of hours after the accident.

And it's going to be interesting seeing how coherent she is after being in a wreck that kills her mother.

Further, especially a slide in icy conditions is going to leave a fair amount of tracks. Accident reconstruction is relatively easy in that situation. What is she going to tell them? You've got a serious risk of beating up on a kid that just saw her mother die. So what's the goal here for the police?

Would her father HAVE to be present if she was only 14? And for that matter, what might they ask the husband/father if anything? As Mike says, if available, absolutely. And I can't imagine a doctor allowing his/her patient to be interviewed until the father is available. Unless the police have some pressing need for information, there's no rush here.

You get the alcohol level during the autopsy. Physically what happened will be written on the road. The police will want to know what she was doing immediately before the accident, but it's not something that needs to be answered immediately.

Thanks, I just want to make sure that my story is making sense and the cops are handling the situation realistically.

What does your plot need? But as a former EMT, I can tell you she's going to the hospital. Even if she says she's fine. And the police are only going to have a couple of minutes at the scene before she goes.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ashlynnb

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Perfect, thanks...this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Actually, I probably should have explained a little better, but what happened during the accident was that she spun out on the ice and crashed into a guardrail on a bridge that was kind of above a wooded ravine or something like that and because her mom wasn't restrained by a seat belt she was thrown from the car.
She suffered fatal injuries but was still alive when she was transported to the hospital. The daughter was also rushed to the hospital but was checked out and only suffered from some pretty serious bruising.

The police don't question her for several hours after the accident and after he father has arrived...but her jerk of a dad doesn't show up at the hospital for nearly 7 hours after the crash. At that point the police come to ask the daughter some questions, but she doesn't want her dad present (in large part because his verbal and physical abuse was what led to her mother drinking that evening and then deciding they needed to leave).

The police really only question her on her mother's behavior before getting in the car and the intoxicated bit, but the daughter...who is traumatized can't really tell them much at the time and the police are very understanding of that and believe they've got what they need to understand what happened in the accident.

Does this sound about right and answer some of the questions that my brief synopsis was lacking?
 
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ashlynnb

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Also, is it the case that there is always a police investigation in accidents involving alcohol or does it really just depend?
 

shaldna

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Sorry for the long thread title!
I'm looking for someone who might know a bit more about what kind of investigation goes into a car accident where snowy/icy conditions coupled with alcohol are contributing factors.

It depends on the situation.

My premise is a girl who was in the car with her drunk mother, her mom was driving too fast, hit a patch of ice and spun out of control. The mom ends up passing because she wasn't wearing a seat belt.

A tox screen would be standard on the mother, and would happen as soon as possible, especially if there was a smell of alcohol etc in teh car. Here any driver involved in a car accident - even if they are the only car - are automatically breath tested at the scene, or blood tested at the hospital or station.

How would the daughter be involved in the investigation...would she be questioned by the police? Would her father HAVE to be present if she was only 14? And for that matter, what might they ask the husband/father if anything?

It depends on the situation with teh father. If the father is estranged, or there are court orders preventing visitation, then the father most likely wouldn't be presnet at that time, although he would be informed.

A social worker will be called, or a child protection officer will be present. As she is a minor she should have a legal guardian present. In absence of the mother this could be the father, or it could be a grandparent etc if the father isn't in the picture.
 

jclarkdawe

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Perfect, thanks...this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Actually, I probably should have explained a little better, but what happened during the accident was that she spun out on the ice and crashed into a guardrail on a bridge that was kind of above a wooded ravine or something like that and because her mom wasn't restrained by a seat belt she was thrown from the car.
She suffered fatal injuries but was still alive when she was transported to the hospital. How was she ejected? Summer is when you get most of your ejection cases, because people drive around with windows down. Here she either has to go through the windshield, the side window, or the door popped open. All require a significant amount of force to accomplish.

A better accident for you would be to have her spin and slam the guardrail on the bridge, then be T-boned by a second car, also out of control because of the ice, with the point of impact being at the driver's door and the car unable to move upon impact because of the guardrail. In other words, you'd have some massive crushing forces in the driver's area, with the passenger side of the car having minor damage.

It lessens the impact of the drinking causing the driving, but the second driver could have been doing okay driving until he had to slam on the brakes because mom's car is spinning out in front of him, causing him to lose control.

The daughter was also rushed to the hospital but was checked out and only suffered from some pretty serious bruising. I'd give the daughter a concussion, and an overnight in the hospital. She'd also be at risk from internal injuries in the area of the seat belt. But a concussion gives her some level of injury, and it seems unlikely she'd get off without something.

The police don't question her for several hours after the accident and after he father has arrived...but her jerk of a dad doesn't show up at the hospital for nearly 7 hours after the crash. By this point, depending upon his travel time and weather conditions, the medical staff are going to be wondering. A lot. His wife has died and his daughter is in the hospital. There's not much, if anything, you're not going to drop if you're normal.

By this point, she's going to have become so insistent on knowing what happened to her mother, they're going to probably have to tell her. She's going to lose it then. She's also likely to be in a babbling mode. People tend to babble after accidents as they calm down. My guess is she's going to start giving at least hints to the nursing staff that her father verbally and physically abused her mother shortly before the accident. My further guess is the hospital will at least be thinking of calling child services, if they haven't already.

There's enough to wonder about here to make the call worth the time.

At that point the police come to ask the daughter some questions, but she doesn't want her dad present (in large part because his verbal and physical abuse was what led to her mother drinking that evening and then deciding they needed to leave). If she doesn't want her father present, they'd try to respect that. If her father is being insistent on being present, they might not be able to. But again, we're hitting points where people are going to call in child services.

The police really only question her on her mother's behavior before getting in the car and the intoxicated bit, but the daughter...who is traumatized can't really tell them much at the time and the police are very understanding of that and believe they've got what they need to understand what happened in the accident. The police are quickly going to transfer their focus from the accident to the physical abuse prior to the accident. Depending upon mom's injuries, it may well be evident that she had physical injuries prior to the accident. (No one can confirm that sort of thing before the autopsy, but you don't need to confirm it and it can be pretty obvious. Remember mom is going to have several complete physical exams if she dying.)

And as soon as they get a hint of this happening, they're going to want dad out of the room.

Does this sound about right and answer some of the questions that my brief synopsis was lacking?

Also, is it the case that there is always a police investigation in accidents involving alcohol or does it really just depend? Depends upon what you mean by "investigation." I just had a guy who decided to park his car in the swamp next to my house in the middle of the night. Yes, they did an investigation, which consisted of my statement, the guy's statement before they arrested him, and pictures of where the car ended up. It's not much of an investigation and I doubt that I'll hear anything about it again.

But all fatal accidents have an extensive investigation done on them. And that's going to be the driving force here for more detailed information, not the fact that she was under the influence.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ashlynnb

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Thanks!
So do you think it's likely that the kind of force necessary to eject someone through the windshield would leave the restrained passenger with very serious injuries as well?

I'm just trying to think of a way to work this out that her mother would sustain serious enough injuries to die from them, while the daughter would walk away just a bit bruised. A large portion of the opening takes place in a waiting room after she had been checked out and, convinced that her dad would be there any minute, insisted on waiting in the waiting room for him.

Another thing, say her mom had hit that patch of ice and went careening toward the guardrail...if her mother were to have hit the gas instead of the brakes (say over a distance of about 10 to 15 feet)...could it be possible she could gain enough momentum to be ejected through the windshield?

I don't necessarily need it to all be very "likely" just possible...every situation is going to be a little unique of course.
 

jclarkdawe

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Thanks!
So do you think it's likely that the kind of force necessary to eject someone through the windshield would leave the restrained passenger with very serious injuries as well? For the driver to be ejected through the windshield, the driver needs to go up and over the steering wheel then torpedo through the windshield. It's hard to drive a sledge through a windshield, as they are designed in multiple layers of glass and plastic film. Force in a collision is a function of speed versus yield of the object hit. A guardrail is designed to give some level of yield, thus reducing the force of impact.

But is it possible for a restrained passenger to survive a car accident in which the driver is ejected without serious injuries? Absolutely. There are so many variables in an accident that anything is possible. But is it probable? No.

And you're not describing the daughter as having minor injuries, you're describing the daughter as having in essence no injuries.

Ejections were common in cars fifty years ago, and no seat belts were only part of the reason. Modern cars, between airbags, design factors, increased windshield and pillar strength, have made ejections unusual. And they are nearly always in summer and usually from open cars or side windows.

I'm just trying to think of a way to work this out that her mother would sustain serious enough injuries to die from them, while the daughter would walk away just a bit bruised. That's why I gave you the accident I did. Most people will probably buy your accident, but having been too enough of them, it wouldn't work for me. A large portion of the opening takes place in a waiting room after she had been checked out and, convinced that her dad would be there any minute, insisted on waiting in the waiting room for him. She's a minor and unless the emergency room was swamped and badly run, they wouldn't let her sit in the waiting room. Among other issues, someone needs to sign her release from the hospital. She needs to be checked frequently in case she has a brain injury that isn't showing up quickly, and she just lost her mother.

Another thing, say her mom had hit that patch of ice and went careening toward the guardrail...if her mother were to have hit the gas instead of the brakes (say over a distance of about 10 to 15 feet)...could it be possible she could gain enough momentum to be ejected through the windshield? Once you're in a slide, your ability to change speed is non-existent. Brakes, gas pedal, neither will cause any change in your sliding speed. (Brakes, gas, and steering can change the angle of the car and the slide direction.)

I don't necessarily need it to all be very "likely" just possible...every situation is going to be a little unique of course. In an accident, anything is possible.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ironmikezero

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Another thing, say her mom had hit that patch of ice and went careening toward the guardrail...if her mother were to have hit the gas instead of the brakes (say over a distance of about 10 to 15 feet)...could it be possible she could gain enough momentum to be ejected through the windshield?

I don't necessarily need it to all be very "likely" just possible...every situation is going to be a little unique of course.



You've got a physics problem...

Having the mother hit the gas rather than the brake while already on ice will have no acceleration effect - the tires would just spin, further destabilizing any operational control.

If one were to stay off the gas and the brake, one might be able to steer the vehicle if the inherent inertia of the mass is not too great. That technique is called free-wheeling, and it does take some skill. Someone under the influence is not likely to execute that well at all.

In your scenario, whatever velocity the vehicle has at the moment it hits the ice is not going to appreciably diminish in as short a distance as you have in mind. You'll need to have established considerable vehicular speed to create the results you want. Seriously consider the points and suggestions Jim has raised - he knows what he's talking about.
 

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How about if the mom runs into the back end of a plow truck? But only the driver's side hits? Would that leave the daughter just bruised and shaken up? I could see if the driver's side hit the back corner of the dump body, you'd be looking at some pretty serious injuries to the driver. And if she was going even 30 mph and ran into a stopped plow (say in a snow squall?) wouldn't that cause a pretty good impact?
 

ashlynnb

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Ahh, yes. These are all excellent points. I'll have to ponder this further because a main plot line is tied into how this whole accident goes down, so I want it to be believable but still allow me to work it all together.

I can't tell you how appreciative I am of some expertise in this area. SO helpful.
 

ashlynnb

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Oh and Jim, I do really love your idea for the accident that would allow the daughter to walk away fairly unscathed. The only problem I'm having is that, for the sake of my plot I need the "accident" to be semi-ambiguous...a "did they mean to drive their car into a tree or not" type of accident.
 

jclarkdawe

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Trying to figure out exactly what you mean here, and this was why I asked what does the plot need, it seems like you want the mother to die in an accident in which she might be committing 'suicide by auto.'

Let's go back to the basic, could it be a 'suicide by auto' type accident and how that conclusion is arrived at. First point is we're looking at single-vehicle accidents. Second point is a collision with a solid object such as a major tree or a bridge abutment. Telephone poles tend to not cut it since people realize you can shear the pole in half. It's got to be a seriously immovable object. Third is a high speed with a virtually direct trajectory. In other words, the vehicle can be aimed at a particular point, and smashed into something with sufficient speed to be likely to kill a person. Fourth is the vehicle only contains the driver. Although I'm sure that it's been tried with a buddy, or as a murder/suicide, this is very unusual.

Going through your accident, you're fine on one, bad on two, bad on three, and iffy on four. Four is easily dealt with, however, so I'll ignore that. Once you are in a skid, your ability to aim a vehicle is non-existent, absent a very skilled driver. You can slide and hit nothing, you can slide and bounce off snow banks, or you can slam into a great big oak tree. It's not predictable at all and for someone trying to commit suicide, you need some level of predictability in the result.

To give you an example, people know that to kill yourself with pills, you need to "overdose." So people take an entire bottle of tylenol to commit suicide. Unfortunately, not in the short term usually a fatal dose (but long-term you're going to really screw up your liver). For a writer, however, we've got to deal with both readers' reality and reality. So if I was to write a scene in which a person only took six pills to commit suicide, it would be hard to be convincing. Yet there is a pill that is tiny, easy to swallow, and six of them will leave you deader than a doornail.

Your accident, as described, however, won't work with any driver who's skidded in icy weather. People almost always describe the feeling as being out of control and having no idea where their vehicle was going to go. So your reader isn't going to go where you want them wondering whether she's trying to kill herself or not.

Now any good suicide by auto always have a level of doubt in them. And it will be difficult with snowy/icy weather, but hey, there's nothing like a challenge. And we won't forget about keeping the daughter safe. And since we're writers, let's not forget to make sure we've got some drama.

I like Jeseymour's snowplow. But for the purpose of a suicide by car, it won't work, as too many people run into the backs of plows because they're going to fast and don't judge the closing speed right.

So we've got a plow going down the highway, plowing the right side of the road, with a wing plow extended to the right. Plow driver reaches the end of his district and needs to cross the median to go back the other way. Plow driver raises his plows, including the wing, but does not swing the wing to the side of the truck, leaving it extended, with the end about four feet off the ground. Plow driver moves over to the high speed lane prior to entering the crossover.

Road is slippery, but traffic is doing about forty to forty-five other then dealing with the plows. Mom's driving is iffy, but not too bad. Mom sees plow and moves to the right to get around it. But instead of clearing the plow, the top of the vehicle hits the extended plow, hitting from one to three feet into the car. (This depends upon how dead at the scene you want mom. One foot probably won't kill her, three feet in will take off her head.) Car would then start to spin, and could spin merrily down the road and not hit another thing until it came to a stop in a snowbank. Daughter would very reasonably be able to walk away without a scratch.

Driver of the vehicle behind stops and waits for police to arrive. When they do, he says, "At first I thought she was going to miss the plow, but then it seemed like she almost aimed to hit it." At this point, police (and more importantly, the reader) are going to wonder whether she was trying to commit suicide by car or not.

The only thing freak about the accident is leaving the wing plow extended. As a plow operator, he should know that when not in use, the wing should be swung against the side of the truck, but who's perfect in this world? But if you want a good suicide by car scene, where the reader is left wondering, this should accomplish it.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

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In Texas all fataility accidents are extensively investigated. An accident reconstruction is done by a trained expert (not an ordinary cop). Skidmarks are measured, all debris identified, first point of impact is identified, damage to the vehicle is measured and a computer reconstruction (using a program like EDCRASH) is performed. Extensive photographic documentation is made of the scene, the exterior of the vehicles and the interior of the vehicles.

Hope that helps.
 

ashlynnb

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Yes, Jim! That sounds perfect.
I really like the plausibility of it but the bit of doubt and questioning that would accompany an accident like that.
I'll have to do a bit more research on snow plows to really understand all the parts your taking off.

Now when you say hitting from one to three feet into the car...if I didn't want her dead at the scene but to later die from injuries, what would make the most sense? And do you have any suggestions on what those injuries would be?

Haha, I feel like I should send you a platter of holiday cookies for all of your help!
 

ironmikezero

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If you follow Jim's snow plow scenario, you could have the mother's injuries be severe (concussive rather then decapitation) and somewhat mitigated by the vehicle's air bag deployment. That might allow her to linger in an unconscious state for as long as your story demands before succumbing to her injuries.
 

jclarkdawe

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Take a look at http://media.photobucket.com/image/wing plow trucks for sale/rustyiron/Harrys/IMG_0656Medium.jpg. The wing plow is the silver plow that's up in the air over the snowbank. The picture has the plow in the position I'm talking about, although the vertical range is anywhere from on the ground to several feet above the ground at the end away from the truck. The wing plow is designed to allow a plow to cover more area in one swipe or to move the tops of snowbanks back.

Wing plows are flexible in the vertical, to some extent, as they're designed to rise over obstacles, but this vertical range is limited. Front to back is very limited. Both ranges are controlled by hydraulic cylinders which are connected to levers in the cab of the plow. I don't know where your story is located, but Nebraska has wing plows on at least some of their State trucks.

When I say hitting the car from one to three feet in, I'm talking about the intrusion of the plow into the passenger compartment of the car. In other words, measuring from the driver's side of the car, how far did the plow go into the car. Obviously, the greater the intrusion, the more damage to the mother.

What you're going to have is the plow riding up and over the hood of the car, hitting the passenger compartment at the A column (that piece of metal to the left of you as a driver connecting to the roof) and part of the windshield. The plow will continue down the side, taking out a portion of the roof and the side windows, before exiting the vehicle. The car will have a tendency to swing to the left, and will start a skid with that orientation.

As Iron Mike says, a minor intrusion will cause a concussion, potential open brain injury, facial injuries, ear injuries (great for bleeding), and the left shoulder. Seatbelt and airbags will keep the driver in place, avoiding the human tendency to duck out of the plow's path. With enough intrusion into the car, this would be instantly fatal and very obvious to anybody.

You're going to get the plow hitting the driver, at a speed of about forty miles an hour, the windshield ending up in the driver's lap and face, roof damage potentially hitting the driver as well. You'll have a very wrecked vehicle on the driver's side, with absolutely no damage on the passenger's side. (Subsequent impacts could change this, but it's completely possible the car would spin several complete revolutions and stop without hitting a thing.) You're going to have massive bleeding, potential ear removal which is always good for someone losing their lunch, and if you want, either being conscious or unconscious. Extrication of the mother would not be very time consuming, as the plow has done most of the metal removal.

Imagine the side of the car being hit by a 700 pound baseball bat. The closer the plow is to mom, the more serious the injuries.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe