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Smiling Ted
12-16-2011, 08:13 AM
Here's an obscure one.

Does anyone know how the Crusaders referred to Middle-Eastern lands that were under Moslem control?

Shakesbear
12-16-2011, 12:57 PM
A stab in the dark and completely off the top of my head - the Holy Land? Or was that just Jerusalem?

Snick
12-16-2011, 04:33 PM
A very wide section was included in the term "the Holy Land". Other areas in the Near East and Middle East were usually called by what ever the rulers called them, but I don't believe that there was a single collective term for allof the region. The term "Levant" is about 500 years old, so it is too new for you. The term"Middle East" has been inuse only 150, or so, years, and the term "Near East" is of about the same age, but it has fallen into disuse, as the Middle East grew to include not only the Middle Ea but the Near East and the Magreb (North Africa).

Zelenka
12-16-2011, 05:19 PM
Jean de Joinville refers to it as 'la Terre sainte', or Holy Land, but very rarely. He usually refers to the actual place, like Acre or Syria or whatever. But 'Holy Land' would've been my first guess as well.

Richard White
12-16-2011, 08:56 PM
I've got several books on the Crusades at home. I'll buzz back here tonight and see what I can find.

The Levant comes to mind, although I think that's a more specific location.

If you're referring specifically to the area around Jerusalem, The Holy Lands come to mind. It might have been called Palestine by some (using the old Byzantine designation for that region.

In fact, much of that area was probably referred to by the old Byzantine terminology. The Perry-Castaneda Library Map Collection (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/) might be of use to you to see what the various regions were called at that time.

Smiling Ted
12-16-2011, 09:33 PM
A stab in the dark and completely off the top of my head - the Holy Land? Or was that just Jerusalem?

I should have provided more context. This character is a French traveler in Constantinople, who has just discovered that his journey will take him into a section of the Holy Land that is controlled not by the Crusaders, but by the Moslems - specifically, the forces of Saladin. He's worried about traveling in an area that's not Christian. The year is 1192, so there actually are parts of the Middle East that have been controlled by the Crusaders for a hundred years - the "Crusader States."

L.C. Blackwell
12-16-2011, 11:26 PM
If he's at all familiar with Arabic terms, he could think of it as the Dar al-Islam (Abode of Islam).

The French term Outremer (across the sea) was also used in reference to what later was called the Levant.

Otherwise, he might think of himself as traveling into the territory of Saladin--"lands of Saladin" etc.

Zelenka
12-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Again, in Joinville's memoirs, he uses the term 'Saracen' pretty much to mean 'Muslim', as was, I believe, quite common from about the first crusade onwards. So 'Saracen lands' to designate enemy territory? Otherwise, to me they'd just use the name of the place, and then mention that it was held by the Saracen.

Dave Hardy
12-17-2011, 01:18 AM
There's a certain amount of continuity in some geographic designations. EG, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Armenia. That still leaves a lot of gaps. What did they call Asia Minor, Iraq, or the Arabian Peninsula? I notice in some histories the largest city names the district. Thus Mosul is a city and a territory.

Of course Saracen lands works pretty well.

Rufus Coppertop
12-17-2011, 02:21 PM
that there was a single collective term for allof the region. The term "Levant" is about 500 years old, so it is too new for you.

I think you're at least partly correct. Apparently the term didn't enter English usage until about five hundred years ago but it had currency in French at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant


I should have provided more context. This character is a French traveler in Constantinople, who has just discovered that his journey will take him into a section of the Holy Land that is controlled not by the Crusaders, but by the Moslems - specifically, the forces of Saladin. He's worried about traveling in an area that's not Christian. The year is 1192, so there actually are parts of the Middle East that have been controlled by the Crusaders for a hundred years - the "Crusader States."

Whereabouts in France is he from?

Because if it's before October in 1192, then he surely has to know that there's a crusade happening and if he's from Normandy or Aquitaine, then Richard I is his duke and if he's from Anjou, then Richard I is his Count.

MeretSeger
12-18-2011, 02:25 AM
Just to throw out an awesome reference for anyone working in this time period: Arab Historians of the Crusades by Francesco Gabrieli. And a darn good read, to boot. Love the descriptions of the European lifestyle from the Arab point of view.

L.C. Blackwell
12-18-2011, 07:24 AM
Just to throw out an awesome reference for anyone working in this time period: Arab Historians of the Crusades by Francesco Gabrieli. And a darn good read, to boot. Love the descriptions of the European lifestyle from the Arab point of view.

I ... ahem ... remember that book. Some of it was extremely *cough* popular with the college students who were studying it.

:badthoughts

But yes, it is an excellent reference.

Dave Hardy
12-18-2011, 10:48 PM
Y'know this is the sort of question that just keeps bugging me. So I dug out my Dover "Facsimile Ptolomeus" and looked at a map dated to the 1470s. It's a very simply Medieival style map, place names are in Latin. The world is a circle, 1/2 is Asia, 1/4 Africa, 1/4 Europe. Jersualem is at the center.

Regions are depicted as loosely connected hills. Among other place names are Libya, Arabia Pentapolis, Palestina, Cermelia, Samaria, & Moab.

I don't know if that is more a cartographer's style, based in a concept of what is "correct," as opposed to what someone riding the borders of Outremer in c1190 would use in speech.

Smiling Ted
12-19-2011, 05:39 AM
Y'know this is the sort of question that just keeps bugging me. So I dug out my Dover "Facsimile Ptolomeus" and looked at a map dated to the 1470s. It's a very simply Medieival style map, place names are in Latin. The world is a circle, 1/2 is Asia, 1/4 Africa, 1/4 Europe. Jersualem is at the center.

Regions are depicted as loosely connected hills. Among other place names are Libya, Arabia Pentapolis, Palestina, Cermelia, Samaria, & Moab.

I don't know if that is more a cartographer's style, based in a concept of what is "correct," as opposed to what someone riding the borders of Outremer in c1190 would use in speech.

Ah, another Musa writer, I see. Congrats!

Those circular "conceptual" maps were very popular in the Middle Ages; today they're called T & O maps. But my traveler's main concern is that as scared as he is of his fellow "Franks," the Saracens scare him even more.

Basically, Europeans were accustomed to calling their lands "Christendom," (just as Moslems called theirs "Dar al-Islam") and I wondered if there were any parallel on the Christian side to the Muslims' "Dar al-Harb," or House of War (ie of the non-Muslims).

Thanks to everyone for their input - and if you come up with something-

Smiling Ted
12-19-2011, 05:40 AM
Because if it's before October in 1192, then he surely has to know that there's a crusade happening and if he's from Normandy or Aquitaine, then Richard I is his duke and if he's from Anjou, then Richard I is his Count.

Oh, yeah, he knows it - and he will meet Richard I, despite his best efforts to avoid the guy.

Rufus Coppertop
12-19-2011, 07:23 AM
You know about the messy political situation and in-fighting within the crusader army?

Guy of Lusignan and Conrad of Montferrat squabbling over who was king of Jerusalem, the late Sibylla's half-sister's forced marriage annulment and forced marriage to Conrad and Richard's support of Guy, probably because his family held strategic territory in Aquitaine....that sort of thing?

Fascinating, messy and completely scandalous!

Also, the rumours that Richard I was gay might possibly be correct but then again, they are based on 3/5's of sweet FA!

Smiling Ted
12-20-2011, 08:29 AM
You know about the messy political situation and in-fighting within the crusader army?

Guy of Lusignan and Conrad of Montferrat squabbling over who was king of Jerusalem, the late Sibylla's half-sister's forced marriage annulment and forced marriage to Conrad and Richard's support of Guy, probably because his family held strategic territory in Aquitaine....that sort of thing?

Fascinating, messy and completely scandalous!

Also, the rumours that Richard I was gay might possibly be correct but then again, they are based on 3/5's of sweet FA!

A-yup. Much fun.
Did you hear the rumor about Richard, Conrad, and the Order of Assassins?

L.C. Blackwell
12-20-2011, 11:07 AM
A-yup. Much fun.
Did you hear the rumor about Richard, Conrad, and the Order of Assassins?

Sigh.... I haz missed dat one.

*Though I will say that the Arab version (per Gabrielli) of Guy and Sibylla's romance is nothing if not movie-worthy.

pdr
12-20-2011, 01:12 PM
Lucy correct in that Outremer the term used by the crusaders? That's the one I learned at school and it is used in several historical novels

Rufus Coppertop
12-20-2011, 07:14 PM
A-yup. Much fun.
Did you hear the rumor about Richard, Conrad, and the Order of Assassins?

No.

Is it really, really scandalous?

Smiling Ted
12-21-2011, 03:22 AM
Lucy correct in that Outremer the term used by the crusaders? That's the one I learned at school and it is used in several historical novels

Yes, but it refers to both the Crusader States and the Muslim territories. I needed just the one.

Smiling Ted
12-21-2011, 03:25 AM
No.

Is it really, really scandalous?




Oh, hell yeah...

Google "Crusade," "Richard," "Conrad" and "assassin" and see what you get.

Rufus Coppertop
12-21-2011, 06:58 AM
Oh, hell yeah...

Google "Crusade," "Richard," "Conrad" and "assassin" and see what you get.

Lots of possibilities! The fact that he allied himself with the Byzantines and fought against Frederick Barbarossa's army is enough to warrant assassination. Richard's need to appear conciliatory while still keeping the Lusignans on side due to the strategic territory they held in Aquitaine, Conrad's sham marriage to Isabella.....the list goes on.

I haven't found anything that would suggest Conrad dressing up as an Islamic dominatrix and whipping both Saladin and Richard in his dungeon during a secret session or anything really, really juicy.

So come on Ted! Spill da beans!

Dave Hardy
12-21-2011, 05:56 PM
Oh, hell yeah...

Google "Crusade," "Richard," "Conrad" and "assassin" and see what you get.

4-28-1192 was an inside job!

Rufus Coppertop
12-21-2011, 06:09 PM
My money is on Henry of Champagne.