"masculine" lesbian characters: stereotype or not

I'd probably have a lot of issue if you described your characters as "masculine." But if they were well-rounded characters who happened to be butch or androgenous, I'd have no issue. Semantics and word choices matter.

~suki

I would say you might want to think about why you think they're masculine and what makes you believe those are inherently "masculine" traits. Maybe that's just their own way of expressing their femininity in a non-heteronormative way.

Unimportant said:

I'm not sure how helpful that will be. The character you would describe, as she is in your head, may be quite different to the character on the page as she is written. The reader may not see the same character you do. In the end, it's all about what's written in the story, not about what the author intended when they wrote the story.

Maybe run your story through a workshop?

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Yup. When you get more than 50 posts, you can post small sections in Share Your Work. And ask readers to look at your characterizations. But just describing the character isn't likely going to help, since that description will almost always look cliche boiled down to a list of things.

Get your 50 posts and then post some of the story in Share Your Work.

~suki

You've been given some great advice here. Always, always, always remember your characters are people, not stock characters. If they tend to lean toward butch, that's fine- my aunt does, and so does my friend Beth. In fact, Beth is a semi pro Thai Boxer.

But they are people too. And straight women can lean toward the 'masculine' as well.

And what is masculine, after all? What character traits? What appearance? What tastes and likes? What attitudes? What behaviours? I look incredibly 'feminine' to most people but I'm told in a lot of ways I have a 'masculine' attitude because I'm ambitious, forward and unashamed of either. And I'm Bi, rather than gay, which confuses people who think in terms of gender binary even more.

If you are going to write about LGBTQ people you really need to examine yourself for unconscious prejudice, cause it will trip you up every time.

I don't think it is fair to call that a stereotype. Everything offends somebody. People are too sensitive in this day and age. But the fact is that there are "butch" lesbians, and there are more feminine lesbians.

Just like there are "tom boy" straight girls, and very feminine girls.

Just like there are effeminite men who are straight, and masculine men.

And just like there are effeminate homosexual men and masculine homosexual men.

These are personalities that exist. There is nothing wrong with any of them, just like they cannot be a stereotype.

Essentially, when there is a limit on potential phases between black/white (gray areas in between) then there really can't be a legitimate stereotype. At least in my opinion.

Homosexuality(or hetero) and personality are NOT opinions. They are facts and they are what we are. Therefore they are can't be a stereotype.

A stereotype is something, in my eyes, formulated over actions that are within our control and reflect our opinions and choices in life. (as a culture of course).

I'd have to disagree with that, Nexus, on general principle.

What about the stereotype that "X people/men/women have big/small/whatever Ys"? It's a matter of race or religion (race you can't choose, religion is often built in from birth, limiting confidence in choice, though not always of course) being linked to a physical characteristic (which is almost always something you can't choose - unless exercise/diet/surgery can change such a thing).

It doesn't really involve a choice at all, yet it's a stereotype.

And yes, "masculine lesbian" can easily be a stereotype (though the execution of any instance is pivotal in whether that character seems to be a stereotype to a reader/viewer). I mean, why categorise gay women in such a "butch" or "lipstick" lesbian manner, if it's not about stereotyping? This doesn't offer much middle ground.

Consider the lesbian who has stereotypically masculine facial features. In movies, how often is such a look coupled with doing woodwork, plumbing, labouring, "man" sports, etc. Whereas the lesbian with feminine features is limited to girly activities.

If those aren't stereotypes, what are? (And no - not all lesbians in film and literature fall prey to such pigeonholing. Thank Goddess!)

And I forgot to add:

I recently created a thread about social gender. So my examples of woodwork/plumbing/man sports does NOT have to be a masculine thing - it's just what society tells us is masculine.

*tries to avoid the minefield of social commentary*

But they are people too. And straight women can lean toward the 'masculine' as well.

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True this. 'Masculine' does not = lesbian, and lesbian does not = masculine.

doomwdfortune said:

i wanted to get your guys opinion on something. the characters i create tend to be lesbians but are also masculine, now their not masculine because of their orientation their masculine because that's who they are. now as the writer i don't write them as a stereotype Ive just always liked masculine female character. the question is do you think people will say my character are stereotypes or do you think they will be accepted for who they are which is masculine females who just happen to be attracted to woman. i don't mean to sound like I'm trolling or being insulting, I'm just not to good with beating around the bush. please give me your opinions I'm very interested in learning.

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I have one primary question, and that is this: Do your characters identify strongly and proudly as women who love women? That's the central issue here to me, not whether masculine women are stereotypes. The stereotype, to me, is that such women "want to be men." Which is absolutely not true of many butch lesbians and which is what, IMHO, you really want to avoid.

Sounds like you have multiple masculine lesbian characters--are they individuals or essentially interchangeable except for one or two traits? What do you mean by "masculine lesbian" ?

Lesbians, no matter how they choose to express themselves, are as unique and distinctive as any other humans--for instance I know a woman who has a buzzcut, is sometimes mistaken for a man. She is assertive, has an advanced degree, goes to weekly martial arts class. She also collects teapots and loves to bake, doesn't know the difference between a phillips and a flathead screwdriver. Another woman I know is a cabinetmaker who plays softball. At her wedding she wore a beautiful vintage 1930s bridal gown. Which one of them would you consider "masculine"?

If your lesbian characters are as individualized as your straight characters, if none of your characters are defined solely by gender or sexual orientation, then you're doing a great job. If not, back to the drawing board.

What, exactly, is a "masculine trait"

It's an essentially meaningless phrase outside of discussions of secondary sex characteristics because "masculine" and "feminine" are culturally and socially derived concepts.

In a rural agricultural environment, women and men will dress in strikingly similar ways, and perform many of the same tasks—driving a tractor, milking, chopping and chain-sawing wood, harvest chores, feeding and grooming animals, cleaning stalls, etc.

Women are just as capable of engineering and mathematics and hard sciences; there's nothing inherent in the fields themselves that requires XY vs XX.

So again, what is a "masculine trait"?

I think it depends on what you mean by "masculine." In my newest project, I have a very strong female MC who is somewhat violent (though the violence is mostly justified) and definitely knows how to take care of herself. She's not masculine in the sense that she doesn't itch her crotch or spit or I dunno, wear boxers or whatever, but she has characteristics that are often attributed to males. Someone on here pointed out on one of my posts that contained an excerpt from the novel that she's not really masculine, and more androgynous. So when, later in the story, she finds a love interest in a girl whose life she saves, it's not really like "yup, had her pegged as a lesbian all along" it just more makes sense to her personality. So I guess I'm saying don't confuse masculinity with strong characteristics that are simply often attributed to men.

Medi pretty much summed up my (meagre) caveat of social construction of gender roles not meaning a whole deal when you look at the individual (I think) in much better language than I probably would've managed.

So thanks Medi.