Crucifix or Cross?

gothicangel

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I'm writing a Roman thriller, and my Roman MC has just discover a concealed cross carved into a wall.

So my question is would my MC say cross or crucifix. Crucifix in Latin means [one] fixed to a cross, so I don't think that is right. So should I just say a cross? Or [as he is a soldier] a crucifixion cross? Or is that redundant?
 

Shakesbear

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I thought a cross was just a cross and a crucifix had an image of Jesus on the cross. There is the image with Jesus dead with the body dropping and the one,which is rarer, with his arms outstretched. The latter signifies, iirc, the resurrection.
 

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How late in the Roman Empire is this? The cross wasn't an important symbol to early Christians. More likely it would be the Chi Ro.
 

gothicangel

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How late in the Roman Empire is this? The cross wasn't an important symbol to early Christians. More likely it would be the Chi Ro.

2nd century. The idea came to me after seeing a photo from Herculaneum, where a cross had been hidden behind a cupboard.
 

gothicangel

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I thought a cross was just a cross and a crucifix had an image of Jesus on the cross. There is the image with Jesus dead with the body dropping and the one,which is rarer, with his arms outstretched. The latter signifies, iirc, the resurrection.

Would you know a date when these images were beginning to be used? I would hate to end up with an anchronism.
 

gothicangel

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What about crux? I think that was actually the Roman word for a cross used to put someone to death.

But would a casual reader know the word used in that way? Maybe you could use the word crux, then use an additional phrase to help a reader. "That mark upon the wall there. It is a crux--the cross of death and suffering." (Well, you get the idea.)

I like this idea. *Pulls out Latin dictionary*

Cheers. :)
 

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Oh. I thought my idea didn't work for you for whatever reason so I went ahead and deleted it.
 

Flicka

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I thought the fish was the symbol most used by early Christians. I know you find fish symbols in the catacombs. I don't think crucifixes were that common before the Middle Ages. But then it's 15 years since I studied history of religion at the uni so I could be wrong.
 

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You don't say whether this wall is ancient, as in first to third century. The early Christian church wanted converts from the old gods. From that standpoint the crucifixion wasn't a comforting symbol, and thus rather rare. So, a cross on an ancient wall would be expected. One would be more likely to find the fish symbol, or the Chi Ro, which is the letter P with an X superimposed over it. These form the first two letters of the Greek word Christ. Note: this symbol is not exclusive to Christians.

But to your question, a crucifix has the corpse on it. The cross does not.
 
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Flicka

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Would you know a date when these images were beginning to be used? I would hate to end up with an anchronism.

FWIW, I think triumphant, resurrected and stylized Jesus is usually found in older, Romanesque churches and the realistic, suffering Jesus didn't come into fashion until the Gothic period. Like I said, I think crucifixes weren't that common before that.

Might be a starting point if you want to look into it.
 

areteus

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I do think it is more likely at that stage to be the chi ro or the fish. I know that the post roman tribes in Briton used the chi ro on thier banners to demonstrate they were Christian whereas later (medieval) heraldry was the cross. If the tribes who were around after the Romans left used that symbol rather than the cross, I reckon the chances are it was more important before hand. Though an expert may know more... I might be able to find an expert if needed...
 

gothicangel

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You don't say whether this wall is ancient, as in first to third century. The early Christian church wanted converts from the old gods. From that standpoint the crucifixion wasn't a comforting symbol, and thus rather rare. So, a cross on an ancient wall would be expected. One would be more likely to find the fish symbol, or the Chi Ro, which is the letter P with an X superimposed over it. These form the first two letters of the Greek word Christ. Note: this symbol is not exclusive to Christians.

The date of the novel is 2nd century.

The reason I used the cross image, was that I found the image in a text book, from Herculaneum [which was destroyed alongside Pompeii.]

Some interesting alternatives. Thanks.
 

gothicangel

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I do think it is more likely at that stage to be the chi ro or the fish. I know that the post roman tribes in Briton used the chi ro on thier banners to demonstrate they were Christian whereas later (medieval) heraldry was the cross. If the tribes who were around after the Romans left used that symbol rather than the cross, I reckon the chances are it was more important before hand. Though an expert may know more... I might be able to find an expert if needed...

That would be very useful. :)
 

Shakesbear

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Would you know a date when these images were beginning to be used? I would hate to end up with an anchronism.

Um... no! BUT I am going to have a quick look through The Image of Christ a National Gallery catalogue of their exhibition Seeing Salvation and see if they have any answers! Be back shortly ...
 

IceCreamEmpress

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The reason I used the cross image, was that I found the image in a text book, from Herculaneum [which was destroyed alongside Pompeii.]
.

I am pretty sure that the "Herculaneum cross" is considered by archaeologists today just to be an architectural artifact (crossed laths supporting a cabinet or shelf), not a Christian symbol. I would encourage you to do a bit more research.
 

Shakesbear

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"Early Christians did not represent the person of Jesus, so much as the belief that he was the Messiah, the Anointed One - 'Christ' in Greek - the Saviour. As this belief was founded above all on Scripture, the written Word of God, the earliest images of Christ were also created out of letter - and word- signs, or were visual translations of the verbal imagery of the Bible."

"God's Second Commandment . . . forbids the making and worship of idolatrous images. Since Jesus and his first followers were Jews, members of a culture hostile to images, no contemporary images of him were made. And the Gospels, written in the first century after his death, give no description of what he may have looked like."

"Some hundred years later, Christianity had attracted many non-Jewish converts. Yet although the prohibition against images was relaxed, fear of idolatry remained. The early Church had no cult images of Christ . . . "
Page 9

"The instrument of Christ's victory, the cross, was seldom represented; early Christians were reluctant to depict the gallows on which common criminals were executed. In the catacombs, they showed the cross covertly. for example in the crosspiece of a ship's anchor, the emblem of hope. Accompanying the anchor, or as a sign within an inscription, we find the
oldest symbol for Christ: the fish." page 10 http://www.scalarchives.com/web/ric...taly&prmset=on&SC_PROV=MUS&SC_Lang=eng&Sort=7 middle row, 11th down.

The Image of Christ, isbn 1 85709292 9

Hope this helps, though it might make it harder! I'd use the words 'Christian symbol' and be done with it!
 

Alessandra Kelley

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I think a plain cross was just called a crux (oh, someone said that ...).

Back when I was studying All-Art-Everywhere-Since-Time-Began-Up-to-Modernism-in-One-Semester, I seem to recall early Christian wall art including "orat figures," which were images of people praying in the "orat" pose -- face-on, with both arms stretched out in a big "T". They wore dead plain tunics.

Oh, BTW, Jesus was depicted as clean-shaven until well into the Dark Ages. Just sayin'.
 
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