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leahzero
12-07-2011, 10:03 PM
So I just came across this today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/publisher-author-didnt-lift-material-for-novel-about-edgar-allen-poes-child-bride/2011/12/06/gIQATb7iZO_story.html


The publisher of a novel about Edgar Allan Poe’s child bride defended the book against allegations that its author, Lenore Hart, lifted material from another work about Poe’s young wife.

St. Martin’s Press released a brief statement Tuesday saying it had compared Hart’s “The Raven’s Bride” to Cothburn O’Neal’s “The Very Young Mrs. Poe” and found any similarities limited to the inevitable overlap of two novels covering the same subject: Virginia Clemm, who married Poe when she was 13 years old.Except internet sleuths have pretty much proven the blatant, word-for-word plagiarism Ms. Hart committed:

http://jeremyduns.blogspot.com/2011/11/ravens-bride.html


From The Very Young Mrs. Poe by Cothburn O'Neal, 1956:
'Beyond Hopewell and the confluence of the Appomattox, the James grew narrower and wound in great loops around Bermuda Hundred. Further on, the current was swifter, foaming against gray boulders and lush green islands which twisted the channel torturously.'
From The Raven's Bride by Lenore Hart, 2011:
'Beyond the confluence of the Appomattox, the James grew narrower and wound in great loops about Bermuda Hundred. The current ran more swiftly there, shoving its relentless force against gray rocks and lush low peninsulas which twisted the channel into a shallow treacherous serpent whose narrow back we must ride.'There are dozens more examples on Jeremy Duns's blog. Duns, if you'll recall, was one of the authors duped by recently-exposed plagiarist QR Markham (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229396) (Quentin Rowan) for his cut-and-paste novel Assassin of Secrets.

What's stunning is that St. Martin's has apparently taken the author's word that she didn't plagiarize, not even bothering to Google some of the cited examples of plagiarism.

aliceshortcake
12-07-2011, 10:46 PM
WTF? I know editors can't possibly recognise every single attempt at plagiarism before a book is published, but for a big house like St Martin's to wilfully remain in denial is unbelievable.

It makes me wonder how much plagiarized/defamatory material lurks in the pages of self-published and vanity published books languishing in obscurity on Amazon. It's probably a good thing that the vast majority of these volumes will never be read.

Phaeal
12-07-2011, 10:53 PM
From the blog entry and comments, I speculate that Hart found this obscure 1956 novel and decided it would be safe to structure her whole "original" novel on it. As damning to me as copied or little-altered language is the appearance of the same imagined (that is, not historical) scenes in both.

Or....

It could be a case of spectral writing. See, the ghost of the original author possessed Hart (without her even knowing it!) and rewrote his novel through her. Yeah. I think that's an even BETTER theory.

Oooh, oooh, bunny!

IceCreamEmpress
12-07-2011, 11:16 PM
This was pointed out in March (http://worldofpoe.blogspot.com/2011/03/my-little-longfellow-war.html) by a Poe scholar and caused quite a kerfuffle in the US community of historical novelists.

I am glad that Duns is bringing it to wider attention! And I applaud him for being so clear about giving credit for the original discovery.

Susan Littlefield
12-08-2011, 12:47 AM
Well, the passages appear too much alike to not be plagiarism.

aruna
02-25-2012, 11:53 AM
And yet another plagiarist, Kay Manning, is outed and humbly :sarcasmapologizes:

Dear Author (http://dearauthor.com/features/industry-news/saturday-news-no-deals-just-stupidity-and-smashwords-concedes-to-paypal-terms#comment-353446)

Scribe4264
02-25-2012, 11:58 AM
And yet another plagiarism author, Kay Manning, apologizes:

Dear Author (http://dearauthor.com/features/industry-news/saturday-news-no-deals-just-stupidity-and-smashwords-concedes-to-paypal-terms#comment-353446)

Wow, that was pretty bad. At least try to make the graphs smaller or larger or change up the dialogue a little more. But just changing the names of the characters? That's just downright lazy.

Terie
02-25-2012, 12:39 PM
Wow, that was pretty bad. At least try to make the graphs smaller or larger or change up the dialogue a little more. But just changing the names of the characters? That's just downright lazy.

I'm sorry, but no. You don't even 'try to make the graphs smaller or larger or change up the dialogue a little more'. Plagiarism is wrong, no matter how much you try to change things around. Also? Making changes like that is not only still plagiarism, it's also still lazy.

I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, Scribe4264, but it's not clear from your post. New writers who don't know the ropes yet could take what you just said as actual advice.

aruna
02-25-2012, 12:44 PM
For the first time ever, I'm following a scandal on Twitter. This is certainly making waves.

I just don't understand the stupidty -- quite apart from the moral issue of doing it int the firts place -- do these people reallythink they can get away with it? After the many, many outings in the past? And do they really believe that an apology after being outed will make it all good again? Do they take us for fools?
Scratches head.

Shakesbear
02-25-2012, 01:17 PM
I'm sorry, but no. You don't even 'try to make the graphs smaller or larger or change up the dialogue a little more'. Plagiarism is wrong, no matter how much you try to change things around. Also? Making changes like that is not only still plagiarism, it's also still lazy.

I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, Scribe4264, but it's not clear from your post. New writers who don't know the ropes yet could take what you just said as actual advice.

Agree with Terie.

Stupidity or arrogance? The "I'll never be caught/found out" syndrome.

areteus
02-25-2012, 01:41 PM
As has been discussed before here, it is very easy to escape detection unless someone specifically looks for it... publishers don't use software to scan every book for plagiarism before they sign them up (though the number of times this happens maybe they should consider it) so the only way this can be found out is post publication when someone spots it.

Most contracts do seem to protect the publisher with a 'you acknowledge that this work is your own' clause which places responsibility firmly in the lap of the author for any bad behaviour.

In the Poe example above, there is a misconception (possibly propagated by schools for various reasons*...) that it is only plagiarism if you copy word for word. Therefore, it is possible that some people will think that the above is not plagiarism because it is not a direct word for word copy (just very close...). If it had been a non fiction and the source had been referenced there is less of an issue because you are merely using information that someone else has researched for your own research. However, this is fiction and there is no reference therefore there is a plagarism issue.

Though I do wonder if a 1956 publication is still in copyright and whether this influences the legal situation in anyway?




*because when I was at school we were told if you were using information from a text book you had to change the wording otherwise it is plagiarism. The same is told to students today when using wikipedia. This is fine for submitting an essay to a school, especially if you are properly referencing the source, but for professional publication where you intend to make money from it...

Terie
02-25-2012, 02:10 PM
Though I do wonder if a 1956 publication is still in copyright and whether this influences the legal situation in anyway?

I'm pretty sure (tho not 100%) that something published in 1956 falls under the current copyright timespan, which is the author's life plus 70 years. If that's the case, even if the author died in 1956, the work is still within the 70-year period.

Stacia Kane
02-25-2012, 02:58 PM
God, I know this woman. She comments on my blog on occasion; she's contacted me privately for advice on a publisher issue.

I feel ill.

Shakesbear
02-25-2012, 03:49 PM
Though I do wonder if a 1956 publication is still in copyright and whether this influences the legal situation in anyway?

*because when I was at school we were told if you were using information from a text book you had to change the wording otherwise it is plagiarism. The same is told to students today when using wikipedia. This is fine for submitting an essay to a school, especially if you are properly referencing the source, but for professional publication where you intend to make money from it...

It is not just a legal situation but a moral one. I've just co-written a play - if someone in ninety years time chooses to take my work and present it as their own it is plagiarism.Copyright is something else.

As for kids using wiki to source essays and just change the words - not surprising education is being dumbed down! They are not thinking for themselves or using their intellects!

Katrina S. Forest
02-25-2012, 03:53 PM
Wow. How on earth did Kaavya Viswanathan lose all future publishing deals with Opal Mehta and Lenore Hart just gets a, "Nope, wasn't plagiarism. We checked."

Life doesn't seem fair.

Alessandra Kelley
02-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Works made in 1956 are still under copyright.

She wouldn't be the first author to mine an obscure old novel in the hopes no one would notice. "The Manchurian Candidate" lifted entire passages word-for-word from "I, Claudius," which at the time was an obscure old novel, something which was only uncovered recently. Thank goodness for sharp-eyed fans and, now, Google searches.

Alessandra Kelley
02-25-2012, 05:44 PM
... And actually it doesn't matter if the work plagiarised is under copyright or not. Plagiarism and copyright violation are two entirely separate crimes.

Plagiarism of a work under copyright is also a violation of copyright.

But plagiarism of an older, out-of-copyright work is still theft of another's work which is presented as one's own. It's just as intellectually lazy, and just as wrong.

Terie
02-25-2012, 06:07 PM
... And actually it doesn't matter if the work plagiarised is under copyright or not. Plagiarism and copyright violation are two entirely separate crimes.

Plagiarism is not a crime. It's morally bad and ethically wrong, and doing it can -- justifiably -- get someone thrown out of university. But it's not actually a criminal offence.

Copyright infringement, on the other hand, is a criminal offence.

For example, if I were to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Pride and Prejudice and sell it with my own name as the author, it would be reprehensible but no one could charge me with a crime.

If I were, however, to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and sell it with my own name as the author, it would still be reprehensible, but also I would and should get totally nailed by JK Rowling's lawyers.

We're writers here, and we need to be careful about the language we use. Calling something a crime when it isn't actually a crime isn't helpful.

Alessandra Kelley
02-25-2012, 07:30 PM
Plagiarism is not a crime. It's morally bad and ethically wrong, and doing it can -- justifiably -- get someone thrown out of university. But it's not actually a criminal offence.

Copyright infringement, on the other hand, is a criminal offence.

For example, if I were to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Pride and Prejudice and sell it with my own name as the author, it would be reprehensible but no one could charge me with a crime.

If I were, however, to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and sell it with my own name as the author, it would still be reprehensible, but also I would and should get totally nailed by JK Rowling's lawyers.

We're writers here, and we need to be careful about the language we use. Calling something a crime when it isn't actually a crime isn't helpful.

Quite so, and I apologize for my inaccurate language. I was actually struggling a bit what to call them -- sins? naughties? wrongs? I settled on "crimes" as in literary crimes, but the word has too important a legal meaning in this context.

James D. Macdonald
02-25-2012, 08:29 PM
I was actually struggling a bit what to call them -- sins? naughties? wrongs?

I'd call them "derelictions."

Jamesaritchie
02-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Though I do wonder if a 1956 publication is still in copyright and whether this influences the legal situation in anyway?




...

You must be young. I was already able to read in 1956, and could even write fairly well. It wasn't that long ago.

Anything written after 1923 is still under copyright protection.

Jamesaritchie
02-25-2012, 08:34 PM
[QUOTE=Alessandra Kelley;7041510

But plagiarism of an older, out-of-copyright work is still theft of another's work which is presented as one's own. It's just as intellectually lazy, and just as wrong.[/QUOTE]

But usually legal. There is a difference.

MJNL
02-25-2012, 08:55 PM
I think it's worth noting that while plagiarism isn't illegal, it is unethical, and unlike things that are simply immoral (like cheating on your spouse), ethics violations are fireable offenses-- and with this specific violation, especially in industries that deal in intellectual property.

So no, you might not face jail time or a fine if you plagiarize an out of copyright work, but you can expect to be (effectively) fired, and perhaps never to work in your chosen industry again (depending on how public you unethical behavior becomes).

Jamesaritchie
02-25-2012, 09:13 PM
It sure sound like plagiarism, but it isn't always as cut and dried as many think. The number of passage does make a difference, and more important, it's never wise to make a decision until after you know where the plagiarized source came up with the words.

Sometimes the writer wrote them, and sometimes they're pulled from a much older, out of copyright work. Extractions from journals/diaries, map maker's logs, assayer's notes, and other sources have led to charges of legalism.

And there's a fine line between how much you have to rewrite textual information and plagiarism. You often don't have to rewrite it at all.

This does sound like plagiarism, but there's still a wait and see aspect.

artemis31386
02-25-2012, 09:39 PM
I'll never understand why people plagiarize. Don't they understand that they will be caught!? If not in today, in the future, but eventually they will be caught and it will be very embarrassing. Let's face it, everyone loves a scandal and things like this get talked about for a very long time.

Plus, doesn't she feel guilty? Obviously not based on her weak defense.

aruna
02-25-2012, 10:11 PM
I'll never understand why people plagiarize. Don't they understand that they will be caught!? If not in today, in the future, but eventually they will be caught and it will be very embarrassing. Let's face it, everyone loves a scandal and things like this get talked about for a very long time.

Plus, doesn't she feel guilty? Obviously not based on her weak defense.

That's what I don't get. How can you ever face your friends again? Your colleagues (in tis case, te RWA)? Just dreadful.

absitinvidia
02-25-2012, 10:25 PM
That's what I don't get. How can you ever face your friends again? Your colleagues (in tis case, te RWA)? Just dreadful.

I'm frankly surprised Kay Manning wasn't caught sooner. Her "Work in Progress" on Goodreads was a Lori Foster book.

This particular author's plagiarism bothers me more than many because it looks like she took care to give away some of her "rewrites" of major authors rather than selling them outright. To me, that shows a lot more effort than just the stealing of another person's intellectual property; it's like she thought that if she didn't make a profit, nobody would pursue legal action.

Amadan
02-25-2012, 10:34 PM
I don't understand the motive. Is it really easier to copy and stitch together someone else's words than to write your own? Do you really have so little faith in your own writing and so little enjoyment in the process? Then why are you a writer?

robjvargas
02-25-2012, 10:46 PM
Plagiarism is not a crime. It's morally bad and ethically wrong, and doing it can -- justifiably -- get someone thrown out of university. But it's not actually a criminal offence.

Copyright infringement, on the other hand, is a criminal offence.

For example, if I were to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Pride and Prejudice and sell it with my own name as the author, it would be reprehensible but no one could charge me with a crime.

If I were, however, to make a plagiarised copy of, say, Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and sell it with my own name as the author, it would still be reprehensible, but also I would and should get totally nailed by JK Rowling's lawyers.

We're writers here, and we need to be careful about the language we use. Calling something a crime when it isn't actually a crime isn't helpful.

Exactly. And having said that, I think we're still off the mark. Copyright infringement is *not* a criminal offense. It's a civil matter. So far as I'm aware, there is no criminal prosecution in a state court. It's strictly between the two parties.

Likewise with plagiarism. It's not criminal fraud, but it *is* civil fraud. I think. I'm not a lawyer.

robjvargas
02-25-2012, 10:49 PM
I don't understand the motive. Is it really easier to copy and stitch together someone else's words than to write your own? Do you really have so little faith in your own writing and so little enjoyment in the process? Then why are you a writer?

"It's a living."

When creditors are calling and the family is hungry and the car needs work and you're trying to decide between what you want today and what you can afford until the next paycheck...

I couldn't do it, but I *can* understand the temptation.

mscelina
02-25-2012, 10:53 PM
Exactly. And having said that, I think we're still off the mark. Copyright infringement is *not* a criminal offense. It's a civil matter. So far as I'm aware, there is no criminal prosecution in a state court. It's strictly between the two parties.

Likewise with plagiarism. It's not criminal fraud, but it *is* civil fraud. I think. I'm not a lawyer.

Um...no.


Criminal Copyright Infringement: Copyright infringement is a felony punishable by up to 3 years imprisonment and a $250,000 fine under 17 U.S.C. § 506(a) and 18 U.S.C. § 2319 where a defendant willfully reproduces or distributes at least 10 copies of one or more
copyrighted works with a total retail value of more than $2,500 within a 180_day period. The maximum penalty rises to 5 years imprisonment if defendant acted “for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain.” Misdemeanor copyright infringement occurs where the
value exceeds $1,000.

http://www.cybercrime.gov/AppC-ReportingGuide.pdf

This will help to sum it up (from the same source)


In recognition of this trend, the Department of Justice is waging the most aggressive campaign against the theft and counterfeiting of intellectual property in its history. The priority of criminal intellectual property investigations and prosecutions nationwide has been increased,
and additional resources on both the prosecutive and investigative levels have been brought to bear on the growing problem of intellectual property theft.

PrincessofPersia
02-25-2012, 11:00 PM
Exactly. And having said that, I think we're still off the mark. Copyright infringement is *not* a criminal offense. It's a civil matter. So far as I'm aware, there is no criminal prosecution in a state court. It's strictly between the two parties.

Incorrect. Copyright infringement is also a criminal offense that can carry criminal penalties if an action is initiated. Probably the most relevant example is the Meguvideo guy who is being charged with multiple counts of criminal copyright infringement and faces up to 40 years in prison for those charges alone, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and the millions he's likely being sued for in civil court.



Likewise with plagiarism. It's not criminal fraud, but it *is* civil fraud. I think. I'm not a lawyer.

You generally cannot sue for plagiarism unless copyright infringement goes along with it. You can take a work in the public domain and pass it off for your own with no legal or civil consequences. That said, you'd look like a tremendous assclown.

The US Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/) has a wealth of information on copyright law. Check it out if you're interested.

ETA: Didn't see your post, mscelina.

robjvargas
02-25-2012, 11:07 PM
RIAA, MPAA, SOPA.

I should have known better. Sorry, folks.

I stand by what I said about plagiarism. In itself, you're right. But if you misrepresent the work as your own, I still think you're open to a civil lawsuit for that misrepresentation.

Becky Black
02-25-2012, 11:58 PM
"It's a living."

When creditors are calling and the family is hungry and the car needs work and you're trying to decide between what you want today and what you can afford until the next paycheck...

I couldn't do it, but I *can* understand the temptation.

See I could understand if it was done only for monetary gain. That's an understandable motive and some people might consider it lucrative enough to risk being caught. But plagiarism goes on even when there's no monetary gain to be had. Cases of plagiarism pop up in fan fiction often enough to show there are other reasons to do it besides money. But what the heck they are I can't understand. What satisfaction do glowing reviews for a story give you if you didn't write it?

firedrake
02-26-2012, 12:02 AM
See I could understand if it was done only for monetary gain. That's an understandable motive and some people might consider it lucrative enough to risk being caught. But plagiarism goes on even when there's no monetary gain to be had. Cases of plagiarism pop up in fan fiction often enough to show there are other reasons to do it besides money. But what the heck they are I can't understand. What satisfaction do glowing reviews give you if you didn't write it?

The TJK case really bugs me because the m/m genre isn't exactly a haven of peace and tranquility these days. There always seems to be some scandal or other. That book received so many awards, accolades, glowing reviews last year. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that it wasn't my story at all. :(

James D. Macdonald
02-26-2012, 12:25 AM
You must be young. I was already able to read in 1956, and could even write fairly well. It wasn't that long ago.

Anything written after 1923 is still under copyright protection.

Maybe.

Depending on exactly when it was first published, whether the copyright was registered, whether the copyright was renewed. We know that anything written before 1923 is public domain. For things written afterward, each one would have to be researched.

See this table (http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm) for more details.

jjdebenedictis
02-26-2012, 12:41 AM
See I could understand if it was done only for monetary gain. ... Cases of plagiarism pop up in fan fiction often enough to show there are other reasons to do it besides money. ... What satisfaction do glowing reviews for a story give you if you didn't write it?To someone sufficiently insecure, getting attention becomes addictive.

And they will behave like an addict to get it.

Becky Black
02-26-2012, 01:43 AM
The TJK case really bugs me because the m/m genre isn't exactly a haven of peace and tranquility these days. There always seems to be some scandal or other. That book received so many awards, accolades, glowing reviews last year. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that it wasn't my story at all. :(

It would leave you in a constant state of paranoia too, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not a nice position to put yourself in.

Becky Black
02-26-2012, 01:45 AM
To someone sufficiently insecure, getting attention becomes addictive.

And they will behave like an addict to get it.

I guess to people like that the attention that comes when they are exposed is just as satisfying in a perverse way.

firedrake
02-26-2012, 02:02 AM
It would leave you in a constant state of paranoia too, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not a nice position to put yourself in.

I'm surprised that this hasn't hit the usual m/m genre gossip places. There's a strange silence. I'm curious as to why.

Captcha
02-26-2012, 02:04 AM
The TJK case really bugs me because the m/m genre isn't exactly a haven of peace and tranquility these days. There always seems to be some scandal or other. That book received so many awards, accolades, glowing reviews last year. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that it wasn't my story at all. :(

I haven't read the book in question, although I've seen the movie. But I'm not sure about 'plagiarizing' when it comes to two works in totally different mediums. Plot similarities aren't plagiarism, right? I guess if the author copied dialogue word for word, that'd be problematic, but I haven't heard anyone say that he did (although I haven't been following this one too closely). Or maybe if he lifted the scene structure verbatim? If it's just a similar set-up, it's hard to see plagiarism, for me.

I don't know.

Is anyone else aware of cases where someone has been accused of plagiarizing based on a book being too similar to a movie?

firedrake
02-26-2012, 02:23 AM
I haven't read the book in question, although I've seen the movie. But I'm not sure about 'plagiarizing' when it comes to two works in totally different mediums. Plot similarities aren't plagiarism, right? I guess if the author copied dialogue word for word, that'd be problematic, but I haven't heard anyone say that he did (although I haven't been following this one too closely). Or maybe if he lifted the scene structure verbatim? If it's just a similar set-up, it's hard to see plagiarism, for me.

I don't know.

Is anyone else aware of cases where someone has been accused of plagiarizing based on a book being too similar to a movie?

I don't know, is the short answer.

I suppose the fact that the shit hasn't hit the proverbial means that perhaps it's a storm in a teacup. I hope so because the m/m genre has had more than it's fair share of crap in the last year or so.

Stacia Kane
02-26-2012, 04:59 AM
To someone sufficiently insecure, getting attention becomes addictive.

And they will behave like an addict to get it.


This. I believe this is why they do it, at least in part. For those who make money on their theft, yes, the money is part of it, but it's also the "high" of calling oneself An Author, of having readers who contact you to say they love "your" work, of getting whatever respect it is they think authors get, of getting the attention and name recognition.

I can see someone who wants so badly to call themselves "published author" but isn't getting anywhere finally resorting to something like this. It's disgusting and vile, but... We've all seen writers so desperate to put "published" under their name that they'll submit to any fly-by-night who'll have them. Heck, we've all seen women and/or men so desperate to be married they'll marry someone they don't love or even really like.

People with dreams they obsess over aren't always rational, and some of them will step on anyone and everyone to make that dream real, even if they know in their hearts it's a lie.

Scribe4264
02-26-2012, 05:22 AM
I'm sorry, but no. You don't even 'try to make the graphs smaller or larger or change up the dialogue a little more'. Plagiarism is wrong, no matter how much you try to change things around. Also? Making changes like that is not only still plagiarism, it's also still lazy.

I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, Scribe4264, but it's not clear from your post. New writers who don't know the ropes yet could take what you just said as actual advice.

I was being a tad sarcastic. People who do that kind of crap should be drawn and quartered as far as I am concerned.

My point was more along the lines of if you are going to do it, by not changing anything but the characters' names you are just begging to get caught.

Being a stupid plagiarist is even worse than your run of the mill, Joe Biden-type plagiarist.

thethinker42
02-26-2012, 05:43 AM
I'm surprised that this hasn't hit the usual m/m genre gossip places. There's a strange silence. I'm curious as to why.

It's brewing. A lot of people are getting their hands on the movie so they can compare it themselves before they comment.

PrincessofPersia
02-26-2012, 11:31 AM
I stand by what I said about plagiarism. In itself, you're right. But if you misrepresent the work as your own, I still think you're open to a civil lawsuit for that misrepresentation.

Should be that way, but it's not.

firedrake
02-26-2012, 11:48 AM
It's brewing. A lot of people are getting their hands on the movie so they can compare it themselves before they comment.

Time to don the flak jacket and make popcorn...again.

aruna
02-26-2012, 03:53 PM
She has resigned from her post as treasurer of RWA's Kiss of Death. See the bottom of this post on smartbitchestrashybooks (http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/blog/kay-manning-peyton-bradshaw-kristal-singletary-and-plagiarism), which recaps the whole situation.



Kiss of Death is dedicated to promoting and supporting the mystery/suspense genre with romantic elements through the championship of good writing through our educational and awards programs. As such, I have accepted the resignation of our treasurer, per her request, and in the best interest of the organization.
AJ Brower, President
Kiss of Death

ChaosTitan
02-26-2012, 06:15 PM
It's brewing. A lot of people are getting their hands on the movie so they can compare it themselves before they comment.

Good. Shelter is a fabulous film, and while it absolutely doesn't deserve being plagiarized, it definitely deserves the extra viewers this mess brings it.

I swear I remember reading a review of the story in question and in it the reviewer made a comparison to Shelter...

Alessandra Kelley
02-26-2012, 06:19 PM
I'm confused. Did I miss something? I thought this was about Lenore Hart's plagiarism of the Poe's wife biography.

ChaosTitan
02-26-2012, 06:40 PM
Aruna bumped the thread at post #6 to include the latest plagiarism scandal, different from the Poe one.

Alessandra Kelley
02-26-2012, 07:05 PM
Aruna bumped the thread at post #6 to include the latest plagiarism scandal, different from the Poe one.

Oh whoops, I missed that.

But wait -- what is the movie people are referring to?

ChaosTitan
02-26-2012, 07:11 PM
Shelter (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0942384/)

thothguard51
02-26-2012, 07:42 PM
She has resigned from her post as treasurer of RWA's Kiss of Death. See the bottom of this post on smartbitchestrashybooks (http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/blog/kay-manning-peyton-bradshaw-kristal-singletary-and-plagiarism), which recaps the whole situation.

They should also ban her from the RWA and the associated affiliates for life...

jaksen
02-26-2012, 07:59 PM
The technology of today makes it 'easier' to plagiarize.

That same technology makes it also easier to be found out and caught.

As for plagiarism in the schools, many teachers require students to do writing projects in class, written on paper, or in the school writing or computer lab, with the teacher watching over the student's shoulder. There also exist programs to 'spot' plagiarized works. I taught on a team and most team writing projects were done under teacher supervision in the classroom. (Bugged the parents no end, especially those who liked to 'help' their kids with projects.)

I found a plagiarizer during one of my last years teaching - a student turned in a poem that was very similar to one I'd recently read online. I did a search of the first few lines and found it. The mother, however, was horrified and upset - with me. (Mind you, I'm the science teacher, not the English teacher and I still found it.) She told me the girl only 'borrowed' a few lines, then 'changed the order of the words' in the rest. (The mother was also a teacher.)

Many 'well-educated' adults have no idea what plagiarism really is.

gothicangel
02-26-2012, 08:29 PM
I found a plagiarizer during one of my last years teaching - a student turned in a poem that was very similar to one I'd recently read online. I did a search of the first few lines and found it. The mother, however, was horrified and upset - with me. (Mind you, I'm the science teacher, not the English teacher and I still found it.) She told me the girl only 'borrowed' a few lines, then 'changed the order of the words' in the rest. (The mother was also a teacher.)

Many 'well-educated' adults have no idea what plagiarism really is.

Heh, on the flip-side, I remember writing a poem at school, then translating it into French. When the teacher marked it, she refused to believe I had written it, and accused me of plagiarism.

Nice teacher. :Shrug:

Amadan
02-26-2012, 09:52 PM
Heh, on the flip-side, I remember writing a poem at school, then translating it into French. When the teacher marked it, she refused to believe I had written it, and accused me of plagiarism.

Nice teacher. :Shrug:

Hah -- that happened to me too, except in my case, it was a short story.

absitinvidia
02-26-2012, 10:30 PM
She has resigned from her post as treasurer of RWA's Kiss of Death. See the bottom of this post on smartbitchestrashybooks (http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/blog/kay-manning-peyton-bradshaw-kristal-singletary-and-plagiarism), which recaps the whole situation.

My understanding is that at least one of the plagiarized authors plans to file a formal ethics complaint with RWA.

Becky Black
02-26-2012, 11:20 PM
Oh whoops, I missed that.

But wait -- what is the movie people are referring to?

That's yet another case! (It must be open season.) There's a book in the m/m romance genre called Bear, Otter and the Kid that is allegedly a rip off of the movie called Shelter Chaos Titan linked to. That one's being discussed on Goodreads (http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/199093705) and on the blog of Teddypig, a reviewer and general commentator on the m/m romance genre, in a post about Dreamspinner Press's reputation. (http://www.teddypig.com/2012/02/dreamspinner-press-reputation-goes-from-bad-to-worse/) (Dreamspinner is the publisher of Bear, Otter and the Kid.)

I wonder if the Romance genre is more prone to this, since there are just so many books there's a good chance of staying undetected for a while. How many undetected plagiarists are there out there? Are the ones who've been caught only the tip of the iceberg?

firedrake
02-26-2012, 11:22 PM
I've seen some of the vitriol that's being bandied about over TJK's book. I am so sick and tired of the m/m genre lurching from crisis to crisis.

Bogna
02-27-2012, 12:38 AM
I wonder if the Romance genre is more prone to this, since there are just so many books there's a good chance of staying undetected for a while. How many undetected plagiarists are there out there? Are the ones who've been caught only the tip of the iceberg?

My personal theory is that the romance genre is more prone to this because writers know that it is a market that will never die. There is always money to be made some where in romance. I have meet a few writers who loath the romance genre who admit to have written romance novellas before solely for monitary gain.

Becky Black
02-27-2012, 01:14 AM
I've seen some of the vitriol that's being bandied about over TJK's book. I am so sick and tired of the m/m genre lurching from crisis to crisis.

I know. It's like being back in fandom again. Drama! More drama!

absitinvidia
02-27-2012, 01:24 AM
I know. It's like being back in fandom again. Drama! More drama!

Well, all things considered, the argument is that it IS being back in fandom again, no? Just with the serial numbers filed off?

Becky Black
02-27-2012, 01:52 AM
Well, all things considered, the argument is that it IS being back in fandom again, no? Just with the serial numbers filed off?

I don't think of this particular one that way. I know of a few books that started life as fanfics and were adapted. That's a whole different thing than lifting the premise, the plot and chracters of a movie.

At least in a fanfic (and I used to be a ficcer myself) the writer comes up with their own plot and some character development - since just because they start with already created characters doesn't mean the characters don't change and grow in a story. A rip off doesn't do any of that. To me that's a very different thing for either a fanfic or a fanfic with the serial numbers filed off.