More Medieval Logistics (Royalty)

CrastersBabies · Dec 4, 2011

How often did royalty travel into town? Let's say a prince wants to go into town and look at armor, weapons, merchant goods. Would it be appropriate for him to go into town with an armed guard? If so, how many would suffice?

The city has around a 75k population.

jennontheisland · Dec 4, 2011

Aren't cities/towns usually built around castles? And wouldn't stand alone castles have their own armouries?

If he's travelling with an escort, he'll need just as many (or one less if you want more tension) guards as the plot point calls for. Need a bit of danger? Fewer guards. Nice and safe and ostentatiously demonstrating that? Add more.

mirandashell · Dec 4, 2011

I would imagine that if someone wants to sell to a Prince, they would bring the stuff to him.

Flicka · Dec 4, 2011

Honestly, I think any merchants are more likely to come to the prince than vice versa. I think reasons such as processions, visits to the cathedral, passing on the way when going hunting etc. is more likely a reason to go into town.

And what jenn did.

CrastersBabies · Dec 4, 2011

I have merchants coming to the castle earlier in the book, but I would also think that royalty wants to "get out" now and then.

So, back to the original question, I was thinking of 4-5 guards for a 3rd born son of a king (a son who knows how to use a blade).

I just keep thinking that's not enough.

jennontheisland · Dec 4, 2011

Really? People who live in luxury with all the food they want and all their needs attended to want to go travel around in a medieval city where people are poor, stuff smells bad, and jealous peasants abound?

Okay. Why? For the fresh air? Go hunting. For whores? Well, maybe, but really, son of a king won't be wanting for chambermaids.

Are these guards going to be named? Involved in jockular conversation? Are they characters we should care about with plot relevant reasons to be there? Can they just be refered to as "his guards" and then ignored for the rest of the scene? Again, I go back to

jennontheisland said:
If he's travelling with an escort, he'll need just as many (or one less if you want more tension) guards as the plot point calls for. Need a bit of danger? Fewer guards. Nice and safe and ostentatiously demonstrating that? Add more.

mirandashell · Dec 4, 2011

I have to agree with Jen. It would be very hard to make me believe that a Prince would want to go shopping.

CrastersBabies · Dec 4, 2011

Well "shopping" is kind of a snide way to put it, but anyway...

I've seen television shows, read books, watched movies where members of a royal family have business to attend to in town. I'm not really going for the whole Siddhartha, "whoah I never leave my castle and now that I have, the world is full of suffering" type thing."

The prince has been on war campaigns, traveled a bit, has some social skills. It seems like this (historically) rarely happened, that royals just holed up and did not see much of the world.

I'm looking for something balanced--a young man who does have connections in town, is working his own agenda to some degree but needs some protection as he travels. I guess my fear is that I'll have readers saying, "whoah, he only has four guardsmen? Four? Really? OMG, SO NOT ACCURATE!!111"

It is fantasy (medieval), so there is wiggle room, but yeah... maybe it was a stupid question. Sorry for that.

jennontheisland · Dec 4, 2011

I still can't figure out why you think you need a number. If he's going out and about with guards, all you need to say is guards. You don't need to specify how many there are.

And if it's fantasy, really you can have as many or as few as you want depending on your world. If 57 is some kind of magical significant number (every culture has their numerology quirks) give him 57.

mirandashell · Dec 4, 2011

CrastersBabies said:
Well "shopping" is kind of a snide way to put it, but anyway...

Is it? Why? The Prince is going to see the local merchants to buy stuff. What is it if it's not shopping?

I wasn't being snide. I'm sorry you took it that way. Do you have something against shopping?

Fenika · Dec 4, 2011

Well details can be important. I'd rather know there were four guards. If someone just writes guards I might wonder 'two? twelve? 50? wtf?' depending on my mindset while reading... Besides, it says a bit about the culture, the person, and perhaps the city/town.

thothguard51 · Dec 4, 2011

Most Royalty of the Kingly and Queenly types generally had guards that went with them everywhere, even within the Castle proper.

Read GRR Martins a game of Thrones. The Kings guard went everywhere King Robert went. Queen Cersei even had her own guards as did they young Prince.

When Ned arrived at Kings landing to be the Kings Hand, he brought with him his own house guards, for all the good it did him...

Or, watch the Tudors. Great show...

areteus · Dec 4, 2011

Since you are clearly writing in a fantasy land, a lot of the 'rules' can be yours to make up as you will, so long as there is a logic to them. A member of the royal family in most historic periods (including the modern day) is very well protected - always surrounded by trusted guards - and would rarely venture out (you have people to go out and acquire things for you). There may even be rules laid down in your country's statute about the safety of the Royal family and disctating how many guards (and who pays for them) and what they are allowed and not allowed to do. I would be surprised if the official heir is allowed much freedom at all. Generally, they are the most well protected and are not allowed to do much that is dangerous (even if, as happens in the modern UK Royal family, an heir takes military service it is usually 'safe' service). Later sons of a king have more freedom to do as they will careerwise (within reason...). Generally, in most royal families and noble houses the rule is: One son to inherit, one son to go into the army and one son to enter the church.

More often in fiction, the Prince, feeling stifled by palace life, sneaks out of the palace to slum it among the commoners and 'do his own thing' instead of having all his work, like shopping, done for him by servants. In those stories, he traditionally takes one guard with him - usually his trusted lifelong friend.

Shakesbear · Dec 4, 2011

I sort of agree with most of the posts. Yet I have the feeling that the third son would not be instantly recognizable by the populace and he would not necessarily have the same number of guards as his eldest brother.

SquareSails · Dec 4, 2011

CrastersBabies said:
How often did royalty travel into town? Let's say a prince wants to go into town and look at armor, weapons, merchant goods.

I would think he'd have people for that. Shakesbear makes a good point about how far down the line your prince is.

Could he go hunting or to visit a lesser noble, or is it absolutely necessary that he go to town to shop?

areteus · Dec 4, 2011

Third son rarely had as many restrictions on him as the heir. Compare the relative roles in the army that William and Harry have now - one is a rescue helicopter pilot, the other is a frontline infantry man. Technically, in the present set up, William is second in line and Harry is third. As soon as Charles becomes King (assuming he does) William may lose even the small bit of freedom he has as a pilot because he would then be the direct heir and have responsibilities as Prince of Wales.

As for armour, in most cultures in most periods of history, armour was not something you shopped for. You commissioned someone to make you a suit of armour and it cost a fortune (I think I remember reading somewhere in a museum exhibit that it was about the same relative price as a sports car). They had to be very precisely measured to your body otherwise they were uncomfortable and potentially deadly. An armourer would either come to you to measure you up and deliver the finished piece or you would have your own on site armourer who would do it for you.

Do a search on Henry VIII's armour if you want some examples. Some of his armour was on display in the Tower of London a few years ago - from the days before he became a fat git and was actually a quite handsome and muscular young chap.

Kitti · Dec 4, 2011

Where is the prince's household located? Is he living in a castle or palace that is within the boundaries of the city or is he a little ways out into the countryside? If it's the former, he'd necessarily be wandering about the city whenever he left the castle/palace grounds for any reason. He would have an escort, which would probably vary based on 1) the prince's age 2) the prince's other titles/positions/jobs 3) the prince's personal inclination

If the prince lives in the countryside, he'd still visit the city whenever he wanted to see various nobles who lived there. Sure, he could make them come to him, but then he'd have to put them up and feed them. Much cheaper to go to them and make them foot the bill - all part of their feudal obligations, anyway. You'll notice, medieval monarchs spend a lot of time going from one vassal's house to the next, moving on before they bankrupt any particular one. A visit from the countryside would probably involve a lot more guards and servants, especially men to take care of the horses and/or boat that brought him there.

Ashley Leigh · Dec 4, 2011

I would just like to say:

1. It's not a stupid question.
2. If you were writing a historical fiction novel, I would be on the bandwagon of, "Your prince wouldn't be wandering around town seeking thrills." (or however you'd like to phrase that.)
3. In fantasy, you do have more leeway, as can be noted by various fantasy novels where princes do a whole manner of things that might be . . . questionable.
4. Please do not reference The Tudors (the show) as a historical reference for the love of all that is good in this world. It is riddled with historical inaccuracies. Specifically the costumes.

Now then. I think it's safe to say at this point that it's your story and you can do whatever you like with it. However, prepare for linkage from moi. I found several resources that might help you with your general world-building. I'm going to make some assumptions here (that your fantasy city is based off an English model around the 13th-15th Century as that seems to be the norm in most fantasy.) Forgive my assumption if that's inaccurate.

Mapping the Medieval Townscape
A Comprehensive Listing of the Medieval Fortifications of England and Wales
Old London Maps
15th Century Life
English Wayfaring Life in the Middle Ages
Some Clothing of the Middle Ages
Armor and Weaponry

Probably way more information than you needed, but I like to be thorough. Also, rolling over to my physical library, some good books you might want to try and find at your library include . . .

Civilization of the Middle Ages by Norman E Cantor
A Journal of the Plague Year by Daniel Defoe
The Writer's Guide to Fantasy Literature edited by Philip Martin
The Worlds of Medieval Europe by Clifford R. Backman

andddd there's some book called Life in a Medieval Town (or maybe City) but I'm not seeing it on my shelves. I think one of my friends "checked it out" and forgot to bring it back. But that might also be a good one.

EDIT: Oh! And I'm pretty sure there's also a Life in a Medieval Castle book. Fairly certain I've seen it somewhere before . . .

Flicka · Dec 4, 2011

One thing that I'm thinking - and the Middle Ages is not my specialty - is that it's not so much a thing about 'how many guards for security' but 'what would his retinue look like'. It's about displaying status, not fear. The more important the person, the bigger retinue. Cutting a prince off from contact with ordinary people makes him more special and underlines his status.

So not just 'how many guards' but 'would he have a staff bearer, how many gentlemen would he bring'. If he's going hunting, will he bring his Master of Horse, his Master of the Hounds, his gentlemen, how many servants to carry his weapons/bring extra horses/carry the game/bring food and a pavillion and to wait on him when he eats?

Royal is who royal appears.

Kathleen_ · Dec 4, 2011

Ashley Leigh said:
4. Please do not reference The Tudors (the show) as a historical reference for the love of all that is good in this world. It is riddled with historical inaccuracies. Specifically the costumes.

I've never seen the show because I read an interview where the costume designer said the reality of Tudor clothing was boring so she spiced it up. For those that don't know, the reality of Tudor clothing is NOT boring... I was shocked and refuse to watch it even though my friend offered for me to borrow the dvds (twice).

As to going into the town, he wouldn't be buying amour and weapons. Other merchant goods is a possibility if it was the "prince disguises himself to go among the locals" but not for weapons and amour.
But I'm guessing there is an important reason he has to go to town for the plot (finds some secret magic artifact at a stall or something?). My suggestion is have him go for another reason and whatever he needs to be there for can catch his attention.

The reason will help determine the guard he has with him. I still like the "sneaking out with one or two trusted retainers" idea. It's a standard in fantasy that won't trip most readers up. A prince going out to the market to buy amour or weapons will trip a lot of people up.

But this isn't a stupid question at all!
All the best!

frimble3 · Dec 4, 2011

Flicka said:
One thing that I'm thinking - and the Middle Ages is not my specialty - is that it's not so much a thing about 'how many guards for security' but 'what would his retinue look like'. It's about displaying status, not fear. The more important the person, the bigger retinue. Cutting a prince off from contact with ordinary people makes him more special and underlines his status.

So not just 'how many guards' but 'would he have a staff bearer, how many gentlemen would he bring'. If he's going hunting, will he bring his Master of Horse, his Master of the Dogs, his gentlemen, how many servants to carry his weapons/bring extra horses/carry the game/bring food and a pavillion and to wait on him when he eats?

Royal is who royal appears.

I'm thinking that for the third son in the line, unless there was a clear threat (riots in the streets, rebels on the horizon) there wouldn't be a big need for security, unless this guy is the kind who goes out to drink, carouse, pick fights and dare people to stop him.
Maybe the TV example should be less 'Tudors' (for many reasons) and more 'Entourage'? As you say, his gentlemen, his servants, his buds, in general.

CrastersBabies · Dec 5, 2011

thothguard51 said:
Most Royalty of the Kingly and Queenly types generally had guards that went with them everywhere, even within the Castle proper.

Read GRR Martins a game of Thrones. The Kings guard went everywhere King Robert went. Queen Cersei even had her own guards as did they young Prince.

When Ned arrived at Kings landing to be the Kings Hand, he brought with him his own house guards, for all the good it did him...

Or, watch the Tudors. Great show...

Hmmm.... yes. I'm wondering about Martin myself, though this city is not as large as King's Landing and the family not so swimming in gold. This is also a prince who enjoys a little freedom, doesn't like being pinned down so much, but won't complain if his parents insist on X number (like the minimum number).

And poor Jory! I just cry when I think of that scene.

areteus wrote:

More often in fiction, the Prince, feeling stifled by palace life, sneaks out of the palace to slum it among the commoners and 'do his own thing' instead of having all his work, like shopping, done for him by servants. In those stories, he traditionally takes one guard with him - usually his trusted lifelong friend.

This is massively helpful. Thank you! Though this won't be an heir/spare/cleric type situation--not so firmly based in English/French. There is a Russian/Romanian feel as well. (Still researching some of that on the side.)

I think I'm just trying to find a way to get my royal out there. I like the "sneaking out" part, but part of me also wonders, "has this been overdone in fantasy?" Or, is it one of those things that's an accepted convention as long as I make it unique/interesting somehow.

Squaresails wrote:

Could he go hunting or to visit a lesser noble, or is it absolutely necessary that he go to town to shop?

Well, that was just an example. There might be some tavern-visiting, some general business (again, he's furthering his own agenda!) Hunting already occurs with a certain number of guards, but he does have business in town that is more discreet. I like what Areteus said about having to sneak out. That seems like the best way to go.

Kitti wrote:

Where is the prince's household located? Is he living in a castle or palace that is within the boundaries of the city or is he a little ways out into the countryside? If it's the former, he'd necessarily be wandering about the city whenever he left the castle/palace grounds for any reason. He would have an escort, which would probably vary based on 1) the prince's age 2) the prince's other titles/positions/jobs 3) the prince's personal inclination

Good questions. He lives in the castle. He's 19, but has spent a considerable amount of time already out in the field of battle (since age 14). He doesn't really take much to visiting other nobles, but prefers his own friends (comrades in the military). He's been out on campaigns for 2 years where he's been able to work the freedom card to a good extent and now he's back and feeling a bit stifled. He's not too up to date with noble politics (more of a soldier). Doesn't really enjoy that part of noble life.

Hmmm, not sure any of this helps?

Ashley Leigh, looks like I have my afternoon planned now! Yes! Thank you for all the resources!!

Kathleen_ wrote:

As to going into the town, he wouldn't be buying amour and weapons. Other merchant goods is a possibility if it was the "prince disguises himself to go among the locals" but not for weapons and amour.
But I'm guessing there is an important reason he has to go to town for the plot (finds some secret magic artifact at a stall or something?). My suggestion is have him go for another reason and whatever he needs to be there for can catch his attention.

The reason will help determine the guard he has with him. I still like the "sneaking out with one or two trusted retainers" idea. It's a standard in fantasy that won't trip most readers up. A prince going out to the market to buy amour or weapons will trip a lot of people up.

Yes! This is where I think I might head now. I'm liking the "stealing away" thing more and more. Less attention to him and since he's been away for a few years, he might have changed a bit in appearance. Harder for people to recognize him.

Kitti · Dec 5, 2011

He lives in the castle. He's 19, but has spent a considerable amount of time already out in the field of battle (since age 14). He doesn't really take much to visiting other nobles, but prefers his own friends (comrades in the military). He's been out on campaigns for 2 years where he's been able to work the freedom card to a good extent and now he's back and feeling a bit stifled.

His fellow military officers were probably also of noble birth - other younger sons, in particular - and so might be at familial homes in and around the city, if you need them to be. And even on campaign, a prince would have a fair amount of retinue (manservants, squires, pages, and especially a lifeguard which could be made of up lesser nobles), so he'd be a bit less "free" on the battlefield than one might think. If you can drum up a biography of Prince Rupert of the Rhine, he'd be a good model of an historical prince/younger son who goes into military service as a teenager.

CrastersBabies · Dec 5, 2011

Kitti said:
His fellow military officers were probably also of noble birth - other younger sons, in particular - and so might be at familial homes in and around the city, if you need them to be. And even on campaign, a prince would have a fair amount of retinue (manservants, squires, pages, and especially a lifeguard which could be made of up lesser nobles), so he'd be a bit less "free" on the battlefield than one might think. If you can drum up a biography of Prince Rupert of the Rhine, he'd be a good model of an historical prince/younger son who goes into military service as a teenager.

Excellent! More internet goodness.

(rubs hands together)

Thank you.

Flicka · Dec 5, 2011

I've read some good biographies on Renaissance courts and princes, like a great one on Galeazzo Maria Sforza that gave detailed info on everything from the arrangements of his apartment to the contracts with his mistresses. There's a wonderful and extremely entertaining book called The Cardinal's Hat about one if Lucrezia Borgia's son. It explains exactly who he employed, what they did, what he bought and where he got it. Now, his father wasn't technically a king, but he was an autonomiys ruler of a duchy and it's a (young) man of the Church, as well as too late (1520s) but it gives a lot of useful info. For example, I don't think he had any guards when not travelling?

Also, one small comment - at least later on (like the 17th century) a young man would usually set up his own household at a certain age, which meant that he would have his own retainers, servants, guards etc abd quite possibly move out of the palace, or at least have his own apartments. At 19, that should definitely be the case. But, as I said, I know little about the Middle Ages.

I def think the sneaking out option is the best; it gives you absolute freedom and is not at all incredible. And sorry for blabbering; it's just that I read several books lately on royal households and their organisation so I'm just a bit over-enthusiastic right now!

More Medieval Logistics (Royalty)

Burninator!

the world is at my command

Dull Old Person

Burninator!

the world is at my command

Burninator!

the world is at my command

A Gentleman of a refined age...

knows a hawk from a handsaw

procrastinatrix

Hoarder of Useless Information

Dull Old Person

Heckuva good sport

Burninator!

procrastinatrix

Burninator!

Dull Old Person