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Tepelus
12-01-2011, 04:57 PM
I know pretty much nothing about the Catholic church, so I'm asking for help on this scene I'm stuck on. My MC, who is Orthodox (he's Romanian) is basically being wed, much to his despair, to a girl who is Catholic because his father and her uncle arranged it so the two families can be united. Well, I know nothing about Catholic weddings, I do think that the MC does not have to convert to Catholicism to marry her. Am I correct? And top it off, it is set in 15th century Hungary. The family he is marrying into are the Bathory's, a very prominent and rich family of the time. He is a Draculesti. So far I have him and his mentor and servant waiting outside the church for the bride to arrive, and beyond that I have no clue as what to do next.

I am to assume, though it takes place in Hungary, that the ceremony would be much the same as in other countries of Western Europe of the time. But I don't know if they would have some kind of tradition that would be a part of the culture. If anybody has any idea where to look for answers, or if you know, I'd be very appreciative.

Snick
12-01-2011, 05:10 PM
In the Catholic ceremony there might have been a mass in addition to the wedding ceremony. The wedding ceremony itself would have been in the language chosen by whoever was running things. If the ceremony didn't include a mass, then there would have been an invocation and a general blessing. I think that the order and wording of the ceremony sghould be accessible from records. You might try calling a Catholic priest to find a source.

Tepelus
12-04-2011, 04:57 AM
Thank you for replying. I may have to talk with a priest if I can't find information elsewhere. I've sent an email to a Hungarian museum in nearby Cleveland, but so far no reply. I thought of any place they would know, but I think I remember writing them once before about a similar question and they never replied. I may have to call if I don't get an answer in a week.

Meanwhile, I'll just have to skip this scene and continue on, though in my head I can't let it go. Sometimes I'm too stubborn for whatever reason and have to write the scene before I can continue. Though it makes no sense, I do write other future scenes when they pop up in my head. Anyway...

Ashley Leigh
12-04-2011, 07:20 AM
Here's a site for Renaissance festival books (http://www.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/homepage.html). There wasn't anything Hungarian for the specific time period you're looking for, but there were Hungarian festival books and at least one book on weddings from the 15th century (that I found), though it was Italian. Might still be a useful resource, though.

And here are some other links on Hungary (http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=603), provided by the Society for Creative Anachronism. I'd consider contacting your local SCA group via sca.org and seeing if you can find someone there who specializes in Hungarian culture (or they might know someone who does.) The SCA is a group of historical recreationists who are very detailed in their research. I know several SCAdian costumers who insist on weaving their own clothing and sewing medieval costumes by hand using period stitches and techniques. They're a great resource!

Tepelus
12-04-2011, 08:00 AM
Thank you, Ashley, I'll check out the links.

backslashbaby
12-04-2011, 12:03 PM
I can't think of any of my old friends who would know. A couple were Catholic, but neither of them was religious at all. Most by far were Orthodox where I lived (and mainly not pleased with discussing religion at all at the time, as you might imagine with the wars).

I do get the overall feeling that ethnic customs kind of blend with the various religions there, and probably have for a while. Her region's customs might be a nice touch to blend in with the Catholicism -- maybe something about the lace she wears, for instance. Or certainly local customs, but I only know the grand differences, like Transilvanians compared to folks from Croatia or Romanians compared to Serbs :D ;)

Flicka
12-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Hmm... The current Catholic ritual cannot be used for the 15th century. Catholic rituals have changed massively since then. I'm no expert at Middle Ages/Early Modern history, but I don't think the dogmatic rules regarding the seven sacraments (of which marriage is one) were laid down until the Council of Trent in 1527 and I think that it wasn't until the 15th century that the Church decidedly recommended a religious ceremony at all.

Lawrence Stone has written some great books on the history of marriage in England and I think Family, Sex and Marriage in England 1500-1800 (Abridged, no footnotes) (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/689355.Family_Sex_and_Marriage_in_England_1500_180 0) included a pretty thorough discussion on the Church rituals before 1500. Might be a place to start? Otherwise, the RCC has a lot of info online.

My mother is a Catholic, but like I said, I don't think you're helped by the rituals of today...

Flicka
12-04-2011, 01:41 PM
Or certainly local customs, but I only know the grand differences, like Transilvanians compared to folks from Croatia or Romanians compared to Serbs :D ;)

Croatians are Catholic, Serbs and Romanians each have their own version of Orthodox religion. It's one of the sources of potential conflict traditionally between Serbs and Croatians. And Transylvanians (my uncle is married to a woman from Transylvania) are technically Romanians since Transylvania is located within Romania.

backslashbaby
12-05-2011, 04:56 AM
Croatians are Catholic, Serbs and Romanians each have their own version of Orthodox religion. It's one of the sources of potential conflict traditionally between Serbs and Croatians. And Transylvanians (my uncle is married to a woman from Transylvania) are technically Romanians since Transylvania is located within Romania.

Yep :) I actually never met any full-Romanian Transilvanians there (knew a guy in England), but I was living in Hungary, so that makes sense.

A lot of my friends were from two different religious and ethnic traditions because of intermarriages and moving around in the region. That must be a fairly recent trend, imho. [It did make the wars seem unthinkable to them, which was sadly wrong.]

Snick
12-05-2011, 03:05 PM
Thank you for replying. I may have to talk with a priest if I can't find information elsewhere. I've sent an email to a Hungarian museum in nearby Cleveland, but so far no reply. I thought of any place they would know, but I think I remember writing them once before about a similar question and they never replied. I may have to call if I don't get an answer in a week.

Meanwhile, I'll just have to skip this scene and continue on, though in my head I can't let it go. Sometimes I'm too stubborn for whatever reason and have to write the scene before I can continue. Though it makes no sense, I do write other future scenes when they pop up in my head. Anyway...

It might be a good idea to avoid great detil in the scene. Over the centuries there would have been many small changes in rituals, even though the main thing was still there.

Richard White
12-06-2011, 08:24 AM
Croatians are Catholic, Serbs and Romanians each have their own version of Orthodox religion. It's one of the sources of potential conflict traditionally between Serbs and Croatians. And Transylvanians (my uncle is married to a woman from Transylvania) are technically Romanians since Transylvania is located within Romania.

Ah, but remember in the 15th Century, there was no Romania. Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia were the three principalities. Wallachia was a nominal vassal of the Ottoman Empire, Transylvania was a Hungarian dependency (when the Ottomans weren't around) and Moldavia was the most independent of the three.

Here's a good map of 16th Century Europe. The Balkan Borders were reasonably close to this. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe1560_shepherd.jpg

(Note: I love the Perry-Castenada map collection!)

backslashbaby
12-07-2011, 01:46 AM
By that map, I lived in Bosnia (and Budapest* on the weekends) :) The history of that region is fascinating!


* Actually, I lived in Pest if it was around that year :D ;)

Richard White
12-07-2011, 07:05 AM
Buda was the city on the west bank of the Danube, Pest was the city on the east bank. They sorta grew into one big city over time

backslashbaby
12-07-2011, 10:49 PM
I can't remember if I ever heard when that happened, though *blushes*. People still use the separate designations today when talking about locations there; I do know that.

VioletK
03-30-2013, 08:10 PM
If you're talking about about marrying Ilona, he converted to Catholicism not to marry her but to curry favor, which of course pissed off some Orthodox people.

Tepelus
03-30-2013, 08:27 PM
If you're talking about about marrying Ilona, he converted to Catholicism not to marry her but to curry favor, which of course pissed off some Orthodox people.

You're thinking of Vlad Tepes, yeah, he did do it to get closer to the King of Hungary. My story isn't about him, though, it's about his son.

Nawlins
03-30-2013, 09:42 PM
Re: mass. Here's a site giving the history of the Tridentine mass which, depending on when in the 15th C you are, may have been in Latin. http://www.the-pope.com/histtrmc.html

Here are some other sites you may find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_14th_century

http://www.the-pope.com/histtrmc.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/tridentinemass_1.shtml

***http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=302641

http://www.askacatholic.com/_Mass_and_Adoration/Holy_Mass/PreTridentineRomanMissal.cfm

***Note that in these pre-vatII-lovin' RC forums, you're going to run into an incredible bunch of stickybeaks so consider this a warning that the site contains a vast amount of snide comment, ridigity, judgment, and pretty much everything you don't expect to see in folks who profess a God of Love. That said, you'll also find some very folks with a vast knowledge of RC trivia, which may be what you need for this part of your book.

hth.

ECathers
03-31-2013, 05:13 PM
This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_customs_by_country#Romanian_customs
http://weddings.weddingchannel.com/wedding-planning-ideas/wedding-ceremony-ideas/articles/cultural-traditions-romania.aspx
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/romanian-wedding-traditions.html

VioletK
04-01-2013, 04:58 AM
You're thinking of Vlad Tepes, yeah, he did do it to get closer to the King of Hungary. My story isn't about him, though, it's about his son.

Mihnea the bad? Thats very interesting! Or is it about a different son (if you dont mind me asking)

Tepelus
04-01-2013, 05:19 AM
His son Vlad.

VioletK
04-01-2013, 05:32 AM
His son Vlad.

That's so cool! So, it starts with Vlad being alive and then transcends into his sons life? I just love the history surrounding that time period, its nice to meet another serious fan!

Cath
04-01-2013, 01:58 PM
This thread is two years old.

Violet, I appreciate that you're keen to participate, but please stop resurrecting old threads.

VioletK
04-01-2013, 07:17 PM
This thread is two years old.

Violet, I appreciate that you're keen to participate, but please stop resurrecting old threads.

Hi Cath! Sorry about that. Could you please link me to the place where it says not to bring up old posts? The information was new to me and the writer and I share a common interest in that time period. Also, please let me know when a post becomes too old to comment on it.

Cath
04-02-2013, 01:50 AM
We're not too keen on laying out too many guidelines on what you can and can't do around here, except for the cardinal "respect your fellow writer", because there will always be exceptions, but common sense rules, Violet. It's unlikely that a writer needs research help on their story two years after originally requesting it and by reviving old threads, you push the ones that are current out of the hot seat.

VioletK
04-02-2013, 09:16 AM
Oh ok great, well thanks for letting me know. I guess I'm the exception to the rule- over a decade of research on the same exact time period (as we have confirmed) has still left me learning after all this time! I'll be sure to start a new thread for any info I learn. Good talkin to ya Cath!! :)