Other Frontiers

Dave Hardy · Nov 23, 2011

I'm curious to see if others here have considered writing about other frontiers besides the American one. Let's leave aside the American frontier east of the Mississippi for a minute and the question of whether or not stories set there can be Westerns. The "Northern" featuring Mounties, traders, Indians, etc is a staple sub-genre of the Western.

What I'm talking about are stories set on other locales where Victorian-era settlers were pushing into new lands and coming into conflict with the natives (and other settlers). For instance, the Australian gold rushes began in the 1850s and lasted to the 1890s. Stockmen set up sheep & cattle stations, Aboriginals fought back, and bushrangers plundered banks & gold shipments. Australia has a fantastic "Western" in The Proposition. New Zealand had a similarly amazing film in Utu, detailing a native Maori in conflict with the paramilitary police & white settlers.

South Africa saw many gold & diamond rushes in the 19the century. Instead of the Mexican War, there were many Boer Wars. Instead of Custer's Last Stand they had Isandlwana. Settlers from Imperial Russia were moving into the Caucasus, Central Asia, & Siberia in the 1800s. Siberia saw gold rushes & lots of desperadoes were dumped there as European Russia deported its criminals. The Russian cavalry fought hard battles with Chechens, Kazakhs, & other tribes. Instead of cowboys, they had Cossacks.

Argentina, Uruguay & Brazil have a flourishing cowboy culture among the gauchos. Brazil also had a startling sub-culture of cowboys & badmen in the vaqueiros & cangaceiros of the North East.

Has anybody around here considered looking into these elements to spice up their frontier tales?

Puma · Nov 24, 2011

I think you're talking more historical here than western, Dave. One of the historical writers (Australian) has been working on an Australian story for quite some time and has posted portions of it in historical SYW. It's very interesting to me because that's a not well represented area of fiction (or even knowledge). There's also a gal in New Zealand who's contemplating writing a story set there. And, historical gets a fair amount of South American stories.

When I first joined AW there was no western forum - western was a part of historical. I'm still not convinced the split was a good thing. Puma

Dave Hardy · Nov 24, 2011

Thanks Puma! I'd like to raise a bit of interest in similar types of stories. Maybe it will stir some of that cross-fertilization that keeps things fresh.

Puma · Nov 24, 2011

I've noticed you popping up in historical. Over the years I've been here I think we've had a fairly good representation of different cultures and types of stories in historical from all around the globe. Some of the stories are fascinating - and the amount of research put into them daunting. But that's a good thing! Hope to see you there in the future. Puma

HarryHoskins · Nov 24, 2011

Dave Hardy said:
Australia has a fantastic "Western" in The Proposition. New Zealand had a similarly amazing film in Utu, detailing a native Maori in conflict with the paramilitary police & white settlers.

The Proposition is a great film. Not seen Utu, but will search it out on your recommendation. I think you're right on the money in highlighting the wealth of locations and cultures where a 'western' can be set with ready made roots.

There's a lot of fertile ground there, not only for new stories, but -- by stepping out of the traditional American form -- for shedding new light on the old stories.

I guess what I am saying badly is, travel broadens the mind and tells you about a new culture as well as your own.

Having said all that ...

Dave Hardy said:
Has anybody around here considered looking into these elements to spice up their frontier tales?

Nope.

But, only because everything I have done up to now (apart from being English) leads me to write about America pretty much every time I put finger to keyboard.

Still, having said that ...

Your post is perfectly designed to place prompt seeds all over the place and think a future 'western' Other Frontiers prompt would be a marvelous way to reap the benefits I detailed in the first part of this post and move me out of my comfort zone.

Puma · Nov 24, 2011

It was suggested to me today that western might like to rejoin historical. Which, if we're talking about areas apart from the American west, would seem like a logical thing to do. That would take care of historical westerns, but horror westerns, sci-fi westerns, etc. would have to gravitate towards those genres. Thoughts? Puma

HarryHoskins · Nov 24, 2011

Puma said:
It was suggested to me today that western might like to rejoin historical. Which, if we're talking about areas apart from the American west, would seem like a logical thing to do. That would take care of historical westerns, but horror westerns, sci-fi westerns, etc. would have to gravitate towards those genres. Thoughts? Puma

My thoughts are that your thoughts are a derail of DH's thread. Surely better to start your own thread about something as weighty as this.

Puma · Nov 24, 2011

Sorry, Harry, but this is the thread that generated the question. Puma

J'Dubee · Nov 24, 2011

Naw, Puma.

Let's stay as is, and agree topost what we (as individuals) perceive as a western.

Samuel Clements' works help me to understand what later western folks thought and how they reacted to events 50 - 75 years later.

LOL - I just made Tom and Huckleberry a tad bit closer to being cowboys.

Puma · Nov 24, 2011

I think you and I are on the same page, Jay. Puma

J'Dubee · Nov 24, 2011

Dave > In the link I posted in another thread, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_(genre)

It states, "In some ways, such protagonists may be considered the literary descendants of the knight errant which stood at the center of earlier extensive genres such as the Arthurian Romances.[1] Like the cowboy or gunfighter of the Western, the knight errant of the earlier European tales and poetry was wandering from place to place on his horse, fighting villains of various kinds and bound to no fixed social structures but only to his own innate code of honor. And like knights errant, the heroes of Westerns frequently rescue damsels in distress. Similarly, the wandering protagonists of Westerns share many of the characteristics equated with the image of the ronin in modern Japanese culture."

The supposition is correct, but I think I'd have a hard time with any western outside of the North and South American Continents.

While my vision of a cowboy in a kimono with a Samurai sword, facing off with Matt Dillon in Dodge is interesting and thought provoking, It might be acceptable because it's west of the Mississippi and in an appropriate time period.

But Really, I think we need to keep the "Western" we're all thinking of within the boundaries of "amur'can west" that I've seen established somewhere in here.

Maybe a prompt of a knight in armor and Matt Dillon jousting for miz Kitty's calico apron will inspire someone to write a best seller.

Werewolves and zombies vs Cowboys have been done.

Dave Hardy · Nov 24, 2011

J'Dubee said:
Dave > In the link I posted in another thread, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_(genre)

It states, "In some ways, such protagonists may be considered the literary descendants of the knight errant which stood at the center of earlier extensive genres such as the Arthurian Romances.[1] Like the cowboy or gunfighter of the Western, the knight errant of the earlier European tales and poetry was wandering from place to place on his horse, fighting villains of various kinds and bound to no fixed social structures but only to his own innate code of honor. And like knights errant, the heroes of Westerns frequently rescue damsels in distress. Similarly, the wandering protagonists of Westerns share many of the characteristics equated with the image of the ronin in modern Japanese culture."

The supposition is correct, but I think I'd have a hard time with any western outside of the North and South American Continents.

While my vision of a cowboy in a kimono with a Samurai sword, facing off with Matt Dillon in Dodge is interesting and thought provoking, It might be acceptable because it's west of the Mississippi and in an appropriate time period.

But Really, I think we need to keep the "Western" we're all thinking of within the boundaries of "amur'can west" that I've seen established somewhere in here.

Maybe a prompt of a knight in armor and Matt Dillon jousting for miz Kitty's calico apron will inspire someone to write a best seller.

Werewolves and zombies vs Cowboys have been done.

I was thinking of frontiers closer in time and culture to the American one.

People think samurai films are Westerns because Kurosawa's movies got re-made as Westerns so often. Knights errant & samurai have certain similarities with gunslingers, kung fu masters, space ship captains, whatever, because they are action heroes. The action tale imposes it's own logic.

What I am thinking about is more specific. The US was not the only expanding nation. Australians were spreading over their continent, driving cattle, building telegraphs and railroads, coming into conflict with the natives, having gold rushes, etc. A lot of American frontiersmen fetched up there to hunt gold or punch cattle.

In South Africa the Boers were traveling to settle new lands in covered wagons. They relied on the Bible and the gun, not necessarily in that order. The Boers were cattle folk, they were incredibly self-reliant, and utterly devoted to white supremacy. To me, they sound a lot like old-time Texans, except law-abiding. One American became quite famous as a scout in Southern Africa: Frederick Russel Burnham learned scouting in Arizona among Apaches & desperadoes. His exploits in Southern Africa were part of Baden-Powell's inspiration to found Scouting.

Now Ned Kelly isn't exactly Billy the Kid and the Zulus weren't the same as the Comanche. But I see a lot of similarities between America and those countries, not to mention a few others.

bkendall · Nov 24, 2011

I vote to stay separate from Historical, at least for now. Cross-pollination with combined prompts from time to time does sound intriguing.

CDaniel · Nov 24, 2011

Just to be clear. I joined AW because it was the only writing forum I can find that has a thread for westerns. I'm tired of it always being hidden in historical. If AW decides to put westerns back in with historical, I'm done.

Puma · Nov 25, 2011

Thanks for the responses above, bk and Dan. I think then, we need to agree that western here, is American west (with some possible bleed into Canada and Mexico), and leave the other frontiers to historical. Incidentally, the question was asked by one of the mods who happened to notice this thread. So if you ever wonder whether the mods are paying attention, they are. Puma

Dave Hardy · Nov 25, 2011

Puma said:
Thanks for the responses above, bk and Dan. I think then, we need to agree that western here, is American west (with some possible bleed into Canada and Mexico), and leave the other frontiers to historical. Incidentally, the question was asked by one of the mods who happened to notice this thread. So if you ever wonder whether the mods are paying attention, they are. Puma

Does something happen if we talk about stories that are similar to Westerns, but not the same?

HarryHoskins · Nov 25, 2011

Puma said:
I think then, we need to agree that western here, is American west (with some possible bleed into Canada and Mexico), and leave the other frontiers to historical.

Ask yourself, what does the Western Genre have to lose by incorporating the 'new' the frontiers that DH has succinctly laid out, and what does it have to gain?

Just as classic western can sit alongside modern or revisionist. The American Western can also sit alongside Westerns of other frontier lands.

An all encompassing Western genre only serves the genre. I very much doubt that the Classic American will be lost in a sudden rash of South African Westerns.

In the end, both writer and reader benefit from a greater depth and choice; and, if writer and reader benefit, then the genre does, too.

Surely, it's about opening new frontiers?

Win/Win, isn't it?

Puma · Nov 25, 2011

In answer to your question, Dave, from my experience, the Mods, powers that be, are always watching for ways to improve things here on AW. Western is one of four genre forums with less than 200 threads; the post count looks high, but that's because of Dan's Bent Nail Saloon (which could easily be moved elsewhere). In SYW, western is one of six forums with under 200 threads. Conversely, some of the other genres have very high thread counts and may be reaching a point of needing a split. So it's not just a matter of what we're talking about, it can also be a matter of mechanics - band width, whatever (I don't know the terms.) And no, I'm not aware of any inside information indicating there are any changes on the horizon. Mac has increased the number of forums on AW dramatically while she's been in charge. The recent activity in western definitely helps the western cause.

This forum was set up initially at the insistence of Festus who insisted that the American western was not getting fair treatment as a part of historical. He campaigned for many months and finally succeeded in his goal. His stories were cow-punching stories from Florida, earthy, backwoodsy - and they weren't getting much notice in historical other than admonitions that he needed to pay more attention to how to write. Consequently, in the early days of western SYW, there wasn't much attention paid to the actual mechanics of writing - it was more a case of sharing stories of the days on the American frontier.

That's probably more background on western here than you were looking for, but, I think it helps to know where we've come from to formulate where we want to be going. There's no harm in discussing stories that are similar to western, as long as we keep the primary focus of these two forums on the US portion of the American west. Puma

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 25, 2011

To be blunt, stories set in other parts of the world during the time period of the American western are NOT westerns. A Western is very strict and delineated. It's a time period from generally the end of the Civil War until sometime when the first motorized vehicles came into existence (think Big Jake) and it encompasses the American frontier during that period.

As far as Canada or the Yukon, those can serve as sub-genres of the Western since they're still in North America, but anything outside North America? That ain't no western, no matter how similar the time frame or technology is. Period.

Those belong in historical. American Westerns belong in here. And like CDaniel said, if this were to ever merge back into Historical, I'd not bother posting any longer.

And, as far as zombie westerns (which I'm working on) or other Speculative fiction workings of a western, I see no reason why they can't be incorporated here as easily as in the Sci-Fi forum. In fact, I think they'd get better acceptance, or at least a more knowledgeable response, here.

And Puma, yes, I remember when this forum first started a few years ago. Festus was here and few others. And now, I'm not even sure where Festus is.

Dave Hardy · Nov 25, 2011

Shadow_Ferret said:
To be blunt, stories set in other parts of the world during the time period of the American western are NOT westerns. A Western is very strict and delineated. It's a time period from generally the end of the Civil War until sometime when the first motorized vehicles came into existence (think Big Jake) and it encompasses the American frontier during that period.

To be blunt, I don't believe that for one second. By that definition Last of the Mohicans is not a Western. How can the Western be "strict and delineated" while still "generally" beginning after the Civil War. Louis L'Amour's Comstock Lode isn't a Western then. The California Gold Rush is ruled out as is the Texan War of Independence.

My point wasn't that stories on the Australian or South African frontier were the same as Westerns, but could be similar. I was curious to see if people ever considered that. Not as some effort to re-define the Western, but to explore ideas and spark discussion. Maybe to generate some imagination.

J'Dubee · Nov 25, 2011

" Dan's Bent Nail Saloon (which could easily be moved elsewhere)."

Oh... NO!

I don't post there... yet,

but I'd miss all the *spitin'*, 'n sashayin'' 'n rootin-tootin' hullabaloo that happens there...

It ain't right.

It just ain't right, I tells ya.

Puma · Nov 25, 2011

You and your sashaying, Jay

Dave, the broader definition of western goes back to include the War with Mexico and comes up to about 1920. So it's not totally limited to 1870-1890. But I do understand what what you're talking about with frontier tales - anywhere.

Shadow_ferret - I've asked a couple people about Festus, including Mac, and no one seems to know anything. I know he wasn't in good health when he was last on here, but he had hopes of improving. I miss him. He was a real character. Puma

Dave Hardy · Nov 25, 2011

Puma said:
In answer to your question, Dave, from my experience, the Mods, powers that be, are always watching for ways to improve things here on AW. Western is one of four genre forums with less than 200 threads; the post count looks high, but that's because of Dan's Bent Nail Saloon (which could easily be moved elsewhere). In SYW, western is one of six forums with under 200 threads. Conversely, some of the other genres have very high thread counts and may be reaching a point of needing a split. So it's not just a matter of what we're talking about, it can also be a matter of mechanics - band width, whatever (I don't know the terms.) And no, I'm not aware of any inside information indicating there are any changes on the horizon. Mac has increased the number of forums on AW dramatically while she's been in charge. The recent activity in western definitely helps the western cause.

This forum was set up initially at the insistence of Festus who insisted that the American western was not getting fair treatment as a part of historical. He campaigned for many months and finally succeeded in his goal. His stories were cow-punching stories from Florida, earthy, backwoodsy - and they weren't getting much notice in historical other than admonitions that he needed to pay more attention to how to write. Consequently, in the early days of western SYW, there wasn't much attention paid to the actual mechanics of writing - it was more a case of sharing stories of the days on the American frontier.

That's probably more background on western here than you were looking for, but, I think it helps to know where we've come from to formulate where we want to be going. There's no harm in discussing stories that are similar to western, as long as we keep the primary focus of these two forums on the US portion of the American west. Puma

Thanks for the background. I am rather surprised a mildly tangential topic somehow means something to the future of the forum.

You know how it is, I get an idea and I just post it. I have little to no interest in board politics or prompt politics. I'm not even sure which "we" you are referring to regarding where "we" want to be going. Is there a committee? I post things I'm interested in, if people aren't interested, I suppose they can ignore me.

My goal is to try to spark some discussion, get some of that cross-fertilization you mentioned going. If that's unacceptable to the mods, I'd be astonished and disappointed.

Puma · Nov 25, 2011

Going back to your original post, Dave. I don't know whether you're old enough to remember the movie, Mondo Cane, that came out in the mid-60's. One of the vivid images from that film was of an aboriginal "cargo cult" trying to lure airplanes from the sky to give them the goodies the planes were carrying. The impression was so strong, it actually makes me wonder whether that might not have been the origin for the idea of cowboys and aliens. Puma

J'Dubee · Nov 25, 2011

Dave Hardy said:
You know how it is, I get an idea and I just post it. I have little to no interest in board politics or prompt politics. I'm not even sure which "we" you are referring to regarding where "we" want to be going. Is there a committee? I post things I'm interested in, if people aren't interested, I suppose they can ignore me.

My goal is to try to spark some discussion, get some of that cross-fertilization you mentioned going. If that's unacceptable to the mods, I'd be astonished and disappointed.

Keep postin' what you find interesting in a western way, Dave. We might find it the same .... cowboys and aliens -- Good lawd amighty! What the world a-comin' to!

whoops! I've used three more lifetimes worth of explanation marks!

make that four.

and as far as I'm concerned, if anyone sees anything unacceptable to them... let 'em ignore the post.

Other Frontiers

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