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Puddle Jumper
12-02-2005, 04:51 AM
Has anyone else seen this on the news. I saw some last night. I guess Scientology is really slamming Psychiatry. They're saying that psychiatry is barbaric, not even science, and should be illegal. The guy I saw being interviewed who represented scientology was kind of funny becuase he kept avoiding the questions to state the same statements over and over. (I wonder if he practiced before the interview to say only a few select things.)

Basically it sounded to me like he was saying anyone who would go to a psychiatrist should pay the big bucks to talk to a scientologist who can help him get better - whereas psychiatrists never try that.

What are your opinions on this? I've never gone to a psychiatrist but I've never thought that modern psychiatry would be barbaric and evil. Rather I've thought that it's helpful to people, like people who go to a psychologist, only psychiatrists can prescribe medicine.

Perks
12-02-2005, 04:58 AM
From what I can tell, you need an obscene excess of energy to 'appreciate' Scientology to its fullest. I'm more apt to take a pill and lie down.

Honestly, I didn't see the interview you're speaking of, but I've seen snippets of debate on the topic. I'm not buying it, but it seems like a lively conversation starter. I hope there are some Scientologists on board who can shed some light on the topic.

I'll give it six posts before someone turns it into a discussion about sex. ;)

eldragon
12-02-2005, 05:11 AM
Modern psychiatry is big on drugs, and with the great drugs out there these days, it's a good thing.

Psychiatry has gotten betten in the recent past, hasn't it? Not as many lobotomies and shock treatments.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Scientologists against all medical intervention?

Which makes me wonder why Tom Cruise bought an ultrasound machine for his girlfriend to watch the growth of their baby with. First of all, ultrasounds are not yuppy toys .......and many doctors refuse to do them without a valid medical reason.

And, second, since Tom doesn't believe in medical treatment, whats the purpose of watching the baby develop? It's not like you are going to interfere or help if there is a problem found.

He's creepy as heck anyway, and my two cents says all his scientology will go out the window if his baby needs medical intervention.

Puddle Jumper
12-02-2005, 05:17 AM
I would like to know what scientology is exactly. I don't know what their opinion is on medical intervention mostly because I don't know what their opinions are on much of anything. It just seems to me that it's really big in Hollywood - like a homemade Hollywood religion for the stars or something - which may explain why it's so expensive to seek a scientologist for help. ;)

From what I gathered (and I didn't see all the interview) was that this scientologist was saying that mental illness is a lie - it doesn't exist - and everyone is capable of overcoming this thing that doesn't exist. Which I found that rather confusing because if it doesn't exist - then how will seeing a scientologist help?

Perks
12-02-2005, 05:20 AM
Which makes me wonder why Tom Cruise bought an ultrasound machine for his girlfriend to watch the growth of their baby with. First of all, ultrasounds are not yuppy toys .......and many doctors refuse to do them without a valid medical reason.



This is interesting because excessive ultrasound monitoring is not endorsed by many professionals as harmless. It's a wonderful tool, but there have been studies that indicate that there are measurable reactions of the fetus to massive bombardment with sound waves. It's still unknown if there are any detrimental effects, but it's not unreasonable to be cautious about cavalierly subjecting a developing embryo to unnecessary exposure.

unthoughtknown
12-02-2005, 05:31 AM
I don't like the idea of either.

And when I wanted to learn more about Scientology, I went here:
http://www.scientology-lies.com/

I found it fascinating. And amusing.

I'm not looking to offend any Scientologists here of course. Each to their own.

veinglory
12-02-2005, 06:00 AM
Psychiatry has a mixed history but it is hard to say it has no benefits. many people have literally had their lives saved by psychiatric intervention to help them overcome depression, addiction or other crippling problems.

Optimus
12-02-2005, 06:22 AM
After Tom Cruise's idiotic meltdown with Matt Lauer ("You don't understand the history of psychiatry, Matt. I do!"...LOL, hilarious!), I caught a rare interview with one of Scientology's top guys on CNN. He showed that he had no real or relevant knowledge of psychiatric therapy and dodged every question thrown at him. He was an absolute joke.

I find the Scientologist's stance amusingly hypocritical.

Basically, in their minds, psychoses and cognitive disorders don't exist. However, they don't really seem to understand the difference between a psychotic disorder and a cognitive one anyway, so they just lump them all together in the "non-existing" category.

Therefore, according to Scientologists, not only does schizophrenia not exist (or post partum depression...just ask Brooke Sheilds), but Alzheimer's can't exist, dementia, delirium, etc.

In their "opinion," it's dangerous and "barbaric" to go to a psychiatrist, because "all psychiatrists do is give you drugs and electroshock."

Of course, this is a moronicly uneducated opinion to hold. The most often used therapy in psychiatry/psychology is talk therapy, not drugs. ECT (electroconvulsive therapy, aka "shock treatments") is only used in severe cases of depression, only with the patient's full consent, and isn't barbaric at all (it used to be, and still is portrayed in the movies that way, but anyone who believes what they see in the movies regarding ECT needs to get out more). It actually helps many people with severe cases of clinical depression. And, there's a newer treatment out there called Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation which...so far...is working wonders with depressed patients.

Scientologists also seem to have a problem with brain scans and EEGs for some God (I mean...Thetan) beknownst reason.

Anyway, "all psychiatry is evil and bad and Scientology is right and good." But, psychiatry is mostly talk therapy. And, if you look at what Scientologists do, they basically give you talk therapy, too. Except, they tell you that you problem isn't that your brain chemistry is bad or that your childhood was bad or whatever. They tell you that you're depressed (even if you're not) and the reason you're depressed is due to these ancient alien spirits trapped in your body called "Thetans" that were released on the earth millions of years ago and have come to reside in the bodies of all humans.

No...I'm not kidding.

So, all the anxiety and mental issues you may experience in your life is really due to the accumulation and recursion of the bad Thetan energy of all your past lives.

No, seriously. Stay with me.

Anyway, the only way to both uncover and release these bad Thetans is by way of an "E-meter." Basically, and E-meter is this ridiculous machine that is pretty much a lie detector device but with two tubes you hold in your hands (they're basically just galvanic skin conductors) which transmits your thetan waves onto this printout that somebody then "analyzes" to tell you your level of past-life thetan anxiety.

All for a few thousand dollars.

You still with me? Good.

Anyway, after that, they then use what is nothing more than talk therapy (albeit a bogus, hackneyed version of it) to help you release the pain of your past life thetan anxiety so that you can finally be at peace.

For a few thousand dollars and the promise that you will continue to give them money for the rest of your life.

So...rather than going to an evil psychiatrist/psychologist who might make you take a test and then give you cognitive-behavioral therapy, Scientologists believe it is better to pretend that psychiatry is a total scam and that mental disorders don't actually exist because your problem is really the accumulated anxiety from all the alien spirits (Thetans) that have infested the bodies of you in all your past lives and the only way to cure that is to hold these two tubes hooked up to a machine that doesn't really do anything and then engage in propagandized brainwashing...um...I mean...Scientologist "counseling" (talk therapy, basically).

It's ridiculous, but whatever.

I'm just relieved that they're so outlandish that few intelligent people actually buy into their schlock, because if Scientology actually ever did achieve real influence, they would wind up hurting a lot of people who desperately need psychiatric treatment.

Puddle Jumper
12-02-2005, 06:34 AM
Scientologists also seem to have a problem with brain scans and EEGs for some God (I mean...Thetan) beknownst reason.
Maybe they're afraid that brain scans would show that they didn't have a brain, or that they were really these aliens and are using this thing they call "religion" to brainwash people. I mean - just look at Tom Cruise - you know not everything is alright with him.

Optimus
12-02-2005, 06:39 AM
I just find it hilarious that Hubbard said in the 1940s that he felt the best way to become rich would be to invent a religion. A few years later, he published Dianetics.

eldragon
12-02-2005, 06:49 AM
yes, and L Ron also published alot of science fiction type books .........which were so mass produced, they aren't worth diddly squat even now.


I believe in reincarnation, but never followed scientology. I don't think I could, because I hate Tom Cruise.

I hate his smiling face. REALLY. And, he's the poster boy for Scientology.

His saying there is no such thing as schizophrenia (I mean, scientology saying so) is like the time I was sitting in a state mental health facility, waiting for my free meds, and Kate Hudson was on the tube, on a morning show.

Here she was was, all beautiful, silver spooned since birth, famous mom, famous step-dad, famous husband .........and she's famous... and she's beaming at the screen, talking about how everyone should be happy. It's just easier to be perky and upbeat and happy because there is so much joy in life.


Meantime, i look around the room I'm sitting in. Suicidal, depressed, unshaven men, with beer bellys and yellow eyes. Overweight, slovenly dressed unhappy, sad looking middle aged women, holding outdated magazines in their hands and staring in a daze up at the screen.

And, I thought - Kate Hudson - you have the nerve.

Ragnarok
12-02-2005, 06:50 AM
One thing about psychiatry is I still have to hear about any of its member found guilty of breaking into any official's office to steal confidential data, leading people to bankruptcy after charging them thousands of dollars per session (suicides sometimes followed), doing any proselytism out in the street right after back massages, and the list goes on...

As for their "teachings", I started reading the Dianetics and stopped after a few dozens of pages when Ron explains Scientology can cure physical problems such as bad eyesight (all due to repressed traumas)... But glasses maker shouldn't worry because people will be buying more pairs of glasses as their eyes will have to adapt to the steady sight improvement. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteHail.gif

It really annoys me to hear Scientology called a religion. People thinking so should really check out the unofficial biographies of it's founder and notice all his self-delusive, manipulative, paranoid tendecies displayed throughout his life. On an interesting note, he also was a decent science fiction author (to me). I really like Battle field earth (not the horrendous movie adaptation). It's not Dick or Asimov brainy type of stuff but it's pretty catchy and there was a few fresh ideas.

Now, I do believe there's way too many pills involved in psychiatry these days. We're not just chemicals.

MadScientistMatt
12-02-2005, 07:08 AM
Psychology has had its share of cranks. Freud himself had some rather questionable ideas that either couldn't stand up under scientific scrutiny or are impossible to prove scientifically.

But that doesn't mean much about how psychology is practiced today. Comparing Freud's theories to modern practice is somewhat like comparing the medical practice of Freud's time to modren practice. Psychology may not be quite as rigorous as other branches of medicine, but it sure isn't the wild blend of conjecture and attempts to systematize common sense that we saw a hundred years ago. The reason I say it's not as rigorous is that it is much harder to create a double-blind controlled study for many areas of psychology - there's no talk therapy equivalent of a sugar pill. But psychologists do their best to have controlled studies according to the scientific method.

I can't say the same about Scientology. Most of their practice was layed out straight by L.Ron Hubbard. They don't have research groups checking if they can make Dianetics more effective. If there have ever been any trials where someone compared auditing with an E-meter to auditing with a needle that moved randomly, it would have been done by Scientology's critics, or possibly Freezoners. They call their methods a religion rather than medicine, and one of the reasons is that it came from an alleged revelation, not experiments.

Here are some links of interest:

Xenu.net - perhaps the most well known anti-Scientology site (http://www.xenu.net)

FreeZone - a group that practices the same methods as Scientology but is separate from the Church of Scientology (http://www.freezone.org)

To the best of my knowledge, Scientology hasn't tried to put up a page to respond to the claims of its critics, instead trying to put up a good face, pretend the critics don't exist on their official website, and try to sue the pants off anyone who puts up a critical website. You'll be hard pressed to find an official Scientology page answering something like the charges in the Xenu leaflet (http://www.xenu.net/archive/leaflet/xenuleaf.htm). But if there is anything like that online, you'd probably find it here (http://www.scientology.org) along with their other official claims.

Gehanna
12-02-2005, 07:23 AM
hummm

Puddle Jumper
12-02-2005, 07:56 AM
I don't see why scientology wouldn't be called a religion, it's sure not science and takes a lot of faith to believe in it.

Though I call it a cult, only because others have and I would tend to agree. Cults are dangerous and scientology, from what I read at the link that was provided, seems to have dangerous aspects.

aruna
12-02-2005, 10:28 AM
A plague on both their houses. But if I had to choose, I'd take psychiatry.

Mac H.
12-02-2005, 11:12 AM
You really should try and read 'Dianetics'. It is rather enlightening. (Not in a flattering way)

One of the really odd things, though, is that Scientologist's haven't rewritten the book entirely.

Frankly, it is embarrassing. Not only does it not even pretend to be a science (which would only annoy those of us who like science) but the claims are, frankly, bizarre.

Consider this quote - straight from my well thumbed copy:


"Antipathy towards children means a blocked second dynamic.
Physiological examination of anyone with such blockage will demonstrate a physical derangement of the genitalia or glands.
Dianetic therapy would demonstrate [that they suffered from an] attempted abortion ..."How can they be taken seriously with claims like that ???

Mac

Jaycinth
12-02-2005, 06:56 PM
I shared a house with a Scientologist for a year. He was a really annoying roommate. Unless I went in my room and closed the door, he would following me around reading 'Dianetics' out loud. (He also took "Battlefield Earth' ..the series... as a 'serious future history sent back in time to warn us about what was to come.)

The other roommates wanted to kill him.

I finally found myself drawing pentagrams at the doors and windows and I drew a circle in salt around the house and sprinkled powdered mistletoe in his shoes.

He Moved.

Ragnarok
12-02-2005, 07:37 PM
Unless I went in my room and closed the door, he would following me around reading 'Dianetics' out loud.

This is all why I refused to watch War of the Worlds 2005. I'm so not interested in Tom Cruise fighting back the Aliens by jumping on their saucers and quoting them Dianetics to Death.

Peggy
12-02-2005, 11:40 PM
This is all why I refused to watch War of the Worlds 2005. I'm so not interested in Tom Cruise fighting back the Aliens by jumping on their saucers and quoting them Dianetics to Death.
Tom Cruise really seems to have gone off the deep end recently. His anti-psychiatry rants and the odd behavior around his relationship with Katie Holmes (who now has her own Scientology "handler") make me NOT want to see any of his movies.

And then there is the video of Cruise killing Oprah (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5473358668974999495&q=cruise+oprah).

eldragon
12-02-2005, 11:46 PM
What took you guys so long? I've loathed that man ever since he dumped Nicole.

Jaycinth
12-03-2005, 12:10 AM
What took you guys so long? I've loathed that man ever since he dumped Nicole.



. . .disliked since 'Risky Business'. loathed since Nicole.

Puddle Jumper
12-03-2005, 05:35 AM
. . .disliked since 'Risky Business'. loathed since Nicole.
I've never liked the guy myself. I did see "War of the Worlds," but only because my brother insisted we go see it. I was not impressed. That guy's ego is so big it could encompass the earth.

So what does scientology say about marriage? I'm curious since he divorced Nicole.

blacbird
12-03-2005, 10:56 AM
Psychiatry bears roughly the same relationship to Scientology that Latin does to Pig Latin.

caw.