Vegas-Gambling

GeorgeK

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I have a MC who's got telekinesis. It's limited and very tiring, but he's on the run and needs cash. If I understand Casinos correctly, he'd need to win a few craps games to get a big enough stake to even play roulette which requires a higher amount to play? Are there other games in vegas with better payoffs that a telekinetic might...make use of?

It appears that the highest payoff in roulette is typically 35 to 1 by betting on a single number? Is betting on zero, higher than any other single number? I've found the craps payoffs more confusing, but it looks like about the highest is around 7 to one?
 

Elaine Margarett

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Why not slots? If your character has a make-believe ability, why not make it easy (easier) for him to manipulate slot machines?

In NV they're all over the place. He wouldn't even need to be in Vegas unless that works for your story.

HTH
 

GeorgeK

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For internal consistency purposes slot machines are too large and complex, and he needs to be able to see the things to affect.
 

Ferret

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I think that craps and roulette would be his best bets. (Sorry--pun intended.) I don't know much about craps, but there are website with rules and payoffs. In roulette, all numbers have the same payout. There's nothing extra for 0. Also, most tables in Las Vegas use 0 and 00. Some casinos (though not on the Strip that I know of) offer chips worth less than a dollar-- 25 cents or 50 cents. A couple of places (way off Strip) even offer 10 cents roulette, so if he had very little money in the beginning, he could start out there. I'd recommended losing occasionally to avoid too much suspicion.
 

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You'll see both craps and roulette have the same minimum bet in most Vegas casinos. The only game you'll really find that has a higher minimum bet is baccarat.

The biggest payouts you'll see for craps are if you find a casino that does fire bets, which are basically multi-roll side bets that the shooter will go on a hot streak. If you could predict that a shooter will hit six points in six consecutive rolls, it would pay out 24:1 on the 4th, 249:1 on the 5th, and 999:1 on the 6th.

Of course, the chances of you attracting attention from a pit boss and a bunch of nice plain-clothes security guards if you hit a 6th-point fire bet is pretty much 1:1. Winning more than $1000 at once will definitely get you a visit from a casino employee with an IRS form W-2G in hand. :)

Slots and telekinesis probably wouldn't work because almost any slot machine you see in Vegas won't have moving parts. Even the retro ones with big spinning dials are still driven by a random number generator on a chip, not actual gears like the old-school ones.
 

GeorgeK

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The biggest payouts you'll see for craps are if you find a casino that does fire bets, which are basically multi-roll side bets that the shooter will go on a hot streak. If you could predict that a shooter will hit six points in six consecutive rolls, it would pay out 24:1 on the 4th, 249:1 on the 5th, and 999:1 on the 6th.

Of course, the chances of you attracting attention from a pit boss and a bunch of nice plain-clothes security guards if you hit a 6th-point fire bet is pretty much 1:1. Winning more than $1000 at once will definitely get you a visit from a casino employee with an IRS form W-2G in hand. :)

Slots and telekinesis probably wouldn't work because almost any slot machine you see in Vegas won't have moving parts. Even the retro ones with big spinning dials are still driven by a random number generator on a chip, not actual gears like the old-school ones.

So the guys in the suits with IRS forms show up before you try to cash in?

Do they have standard side bets in roulette that increase the payoff, like if you were to announce that you were going to, "let it ride," twice in a row, or some such.

What does it mean to hit six points?

Does it seem reasonable that a new casino might have a higher payout to attract customers, like a gimmick of, "We pay 50 to 1 on roulette zero!"
 
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Ferret

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People are supposed to report ALL gambling winnings to the IRS. However, the casino only reports the information to the IRS on winnings of $1200 or more. I'm not sure when this would be done--maybe when the person tries to cash out. If your character wants to avoid this, he could go to a lot of casinos and win just under this amount at each. This would probably be a good idea anyway because he wouldn't want to attract too much attention with an impossibly lucky streak.

I've never heard of a casino advertising higher payouts (added: for roulette, that is). They typically advertise loose slots and a good rewards program.

Also, the only way to get a bigger payout is to bet more. Letting it ride, assuming you keep winning and you don't go over the max bet, will lead to larger payouts only because you're betting more each time. The actual odds and payouts don't change.
 
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underthecity

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If you can have the character get the IRS forms when winning (perhaps with a false identity?), he could get huge payouts at the roulette table without attracting attention. A friend of mine does this when he goes to casinos, but then he's not telekinetic, just lucky as hell.

Have your character place five different bets on the roulette table between $50 and $100 apiece. One of those numbers he will manipulate the wheel to stop on. So, if he bets $100 on five numbers, he's out $500, but one of those numbers will hit with a payout of $3500. (My friend lays down bets like this and usually wins pretty big. However, he sits at the table for hours.)

Yes, it's possible to just "let it ride" after hitting a particular number. You just leave your bet on that number. If that same number hits again and again, security might start watching closely.

I suppose it is possible for a casino to advertise 50:1 odds for a 0 or 00, but they would have to have big signs up saying so. It actually couldn't hurt for you to call a large Vegas casino and ask if they've ever done that.

The best thing for your character to do is to play for two or three hours, manipulating the ball, placing winning and losing bets, but in the end, coming out really far ahead. This way, casino security wouldn't be on to him, he would be betting/winning/losing just like any normal player without any telekinetic advantage.

I've sat at enough tables and have watched other players, with much larger bankrolls than mine, win this way.
 

GeorgeK

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Are the, "0," and the, "00," the same or different slots on the wheel?

Who gets the free drinks, just the people gambling, or also the crowd watching that night's big winner?

I thought that since they gamble with chips, they don't actually win anything until they cash out? So, I thought the guys with IRS forms would be at the cage where they cash out. Is cage the right term?

Is it reasonable that casinos might have photographs of the casino floors and therefore pictures of previous big winners? Or, does the happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas motto mean Mr Telekinetic should not see a photograph of the guy with similar abilities from 3 years earlier?

What are the Roulette balls made of? Plastic, much like dice if I understand correctly. Also the player never actually touches the ball? It's put in play by a casino employee?

Thanks all, this is helping.
 
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underthecity

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Are the, "0," and the, "00," the same or different slots on the wheel?

This webpage shows a modern American roulette wheel. The 0 and 00 are on opposite sides of the wheel. (American Roulette includes 0 and 00. European casinos use only one 0, changing the odds a bit.)

Who gets the free drinks, just the people gambling, or also the crowd watching that night's big winner?
This only happens in the Vegas casinos, as far as I know, not at the riverboat casinos. The people gambling are offered free drinks. Keeps them gambling. Any spectator buys their own.

I thought that since they gamble with chips, they don't actually win anything until they cash out? So, I thought the guys with IRS forms would be at the cage where they cash out. Is cage the right term?
Cage is correct. The pit bosses are watching all the action and keeping track of how long the player sits there, plus how much he's betting. Unfortunately, I don't know if the pit boss arranges for the IRS forms or if you get one when you cash out. And yes, you're gambling with chips provided at the table. Each player gets a different color.


Is it reasonable that casinos might have photographs of the casino floors and therefore pictures of previous big winners? Or, does the happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas motto mean Mr Telekinetic should not see a photograph of the guy with similar abilities from 3 years earlier?
Probably no pictures of previous big winners, unless they were caught cheating somehow. Big winners are considered "high rollers" and are welcomed by the casino. My friend is a high roller and gets coupons for free hotel visits in the mail from the big Vegas casinos he likes to go to. Casinos would never alienate a high roller. Unless he was caught cheating.


What are the Roulette balls made of? Plastic, much like dice if I understand correctly. Also the player never actually touches the ball? It's put in play by a casino employee?
The ball is made of steel. Only the dealer touches the ball and the wheel. On rare occasions the ball might jump out of the dealers hand on a spin (I'm pretty sure I saw it happen once) and land on the floor. If this happens, a player might be able to retrieve it and hand it back to the dealer. If your character needs to touch the ball, this might help in that regard.


Thanks all, this is helping.
I may not be a big winner at roulette, but I love to play it.
 

underthecity

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ETA: 0 and 00 pay the same amount, 35-1. Every table has a minimum bet, usually $5. Some will go as low as $1, but it takes a long time to win anything that way.

If you want your character to play craps, he could really clean up that way, really fast. But, if you're going to have a scene where he's playing craps, you need to know how to play it yourself. Craps is fun, and nail-bitingly aggravating to play. There are also lots of different ways to bet and play. Two dice are used, and thrown by the "shooter," one of the players around the table. (Again, if your character needs to touch the dice, this would be a great way to do it.) He can lay large bets on two or three of the numbers to come up and manipulate the dice each time to land on one of those numbers. "Craps," or Seven, would never come up. He could throw the dice for an hour straight and keep winning and winning and winning. Everyone around the table would cheer and love him, but the pit bosses and security would get suspicious. The only way to cheat would be to switch the dice, but the pit bosses check the dice after every throw. If he's using telekinesis to control the dice, he couldn't get caught.

Think about the scene in Rain Man, when security tells Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman "We don't know how you're doing it, but we know you're cheating somehow." It's against the law, actually, to use a method to play that is unavailable to any other player.
 

GeorgeK

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Each player gets a different color..

So then the style and probably some emblem or logo marks the casino. Then there are color styles for denominations and then color codes (presumably a half dozen or so) to separate players at a given table? So does that mean that it would be a problem to take your winning chips from one table and move to a different table within the same casino?

It seems in light of this that if he were to get some free chips for staying in the casino's hotel, he would not be given chips by the consierge at the check in desk. He'd probably have to present his room key at the cage and get the chips there?

So photographs of the other guy 3 years earlier would not be on public display, but in the electronic surveilance room where security films everything to watch for cheating. Is there a name for that place to which all the cameras lead?
 
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underthecity

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The roulette chips are in $1 denominations, each player gets a different color, and--while I've never been in every casino ever--the casinos I've been to always have their logo on the chips. The dealer generally gives them out in stacks of ten. If you're going to leave the table, you "cash out" at the table, meaning you're given standard casino chips for the winnings, say, $25 chips for twenty-five roulette chips. Or $100 or more. Then you leave the table.

You're in luck. I just got off the phone with my friend, the big-time gambler. The name of the security room where they watch the tables with cameras is typically called Security and Communications Center, also called C-Comm (I think).

Vegas and Atlantic City casinos employ two or three hundred cocktail waitresses who visit the tables every ten minutes and say, "Would anyone here like a drink?" This is complimentary beer, alcohol, etc. for all those who are gambling. Tips are expected, but drinks are free.

ALSO. They do not issue 1099s for table games. So, you can walk away from a roulette table with over $5,000 and not get a 1099. However, they DO issue 1099s for slot machines and special event drawings.

Receiving free chips. These are "comps" for being a high-roller. You'd get a coupon in the mail for $25, $100 or more depending on how much you gambled in the past. You present the coupon at the club-card desk at the entrance of the casino. Everyone who gambles there can get the card, which keeps track of your winnings. That's how they know who the high rollers are. But if your character is trying to keep low-key, he wouldn't have a card, which requires a drivers license.

Presumably the Command Center would have photographs and names of past cheats. How they are displayed, I don't know.
 

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Is it reasonable that casinos might have photographs of the casino floors and therefore pictures of previous big winners? Or, does the happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas motto mean Mr Telekinetic should not see a photograph of the guy with similar abilities from 3 years earlier?

There are people whose job it is to scrutinise the CCTV at the casinos (and you'd better believe those places are *stuffed* with cameras) to spot card counters and other undesirables even through disguises. The chap I saw (briefly) on a tv programme had a laptop and software that did face recognition. That was some years ago; the software is much more sophisticated now.
 

GeorgeK

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So the guy is at the table placing his bet, and the waitress asks if there's anything he'd like from the bar. Would they bring him a couple aspirin, or is that technically dispensing medicine without a license, even though it's an over the counter medicine? Also does he have to be at least 18, or 21?
 

GeorgeK

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At what point will the casino...

offer a complimentary room?

refuse a bet because the wager is too high?

close the table?
 

underthecity

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I forgot to answer a question posted before about getting aspirin. I can't answer this with authority, only an assumption. I will guess that if a player at table tips the cocktail waitress $5 to $10 she will go get him some aspirin. At the very least, there's usually a vending machine in a hotel someplace that sells sundries like aspirin and toothpaste. Or the casino gift shop. She could easily get him some for the right tip.


At what point will the casino...

offer a complimentary room?
When the player has been sitting and gambling for a really long time and has been spending a lot of money. Unless offered, and it's getting late, the player might ask the pit boss for a room comp.

refuse a bet because the wager is too high?
Only if it's past the table limit. The pit boss may make an exception if the player has been sitting there long enough.
close the table?
I've never heard of this happening before. I guess the table might close if there was theft or cheating taking place.
 

GeorgeK

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sound reasonable?

Only if it's past the table limit. The pit boss may make an exception if the player has been sitting there long enough..

Then I guess the question is, "What's the table limit for a high stakes roulette table?" I have the pit boss having to approve his last bet, a single number bet of 20K, which at 35 to one gets 700K. BTW would it be 700K total, or 700 + the original bet of 20 = then 720 K handed back to the patron? The house then basically sends him to bed in a comped room and close the table so they can inspect it. They also credit his newly created tab with the winnings rather than cashing him out. I'm assuming that when he leaves the next day, he will only get half the money, the other half having been assigned to the IRS?

Do casinos have their own banks in the sense that he'd potentially get a checkbook rather than 350K cash? If he wants cash, would they have it?

Thanks for the help. Obviously neither do I gamble nor do I have telekinesis.
 
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shawkins

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I'm not a gambling expert, but I've been getting out to Vegas quite a bit lately.

Then I guess the question is, "What's the table limit for a high stakes roulette table?"

I have the pit boss having to approve his last bet, a single number bet of 20K, which at 35 to one gets 700K.

I don't know, but I think it's probably really high. I've personally seen a bet larger than $20k on a single number. I don't recall the dealer getting approval or, indeed, seeming all that impressed. This was on the regular-schlub floor in the Venetian, not a special room or anything. A Chinese guy bet something like $40,000 (a BIG stack of $100 chips) on a single number on the roulette wheel. He lost it all. Probably stung a bit; he'd started out about 10 minutes earlier with something like $50.

The pit bosses know that if your guy isn't cheating somehow he will absolutely, positively lose sooner or later. I wouldn't expect them to start seriously thinking about cutting him off until he had maybe $1 million on a 36-to-1 bet. Probably not even then, unless they suspected cheating. I don't know much about the business, but I do know that a lot of their profits are made catering to 'whales' a.k.a. really high rollers. Sheikhs, dot-com zillionaires, oligarchs,... I can't imagine those guys would get real worked up about playing for $10,000 bets, or even $100,000 bets.

If he kept nailing these 36-to-1 bets they might well send the dealer home or something so that your guy had to move to another table. Or maybe not. Gamblers are weird about their hot streaks, and they wouldn't want to irk the guy.

Caesar's palace has a section where the minimum bets are (IIRC) in the $5,000-$10,000 range. It's roped off from the common people area and the dealers are a little dressier, but anybody who wants to can go in.

In case nobody mentioned it, in roulette you can also split your bet between 2 or 4 adjacent numbers, or bet red/black, odd/even, ...) You just lay your chips on the line separating two numbered boxes, or on the t shape where four boxes intersect. If your guy bet that way it might be a little less conspicuous than if he was routinely nailing all these single number bets.

It's pretty routine to see people accumulate big piles of chips--tens of thousands--and lose everything within the space of a few minutes.

BTW would it be 700K total, or 700 + the original bet of 20 = then 720 K handed back to the patron? The house then basically sends him to bed in a comped room and close the table so they can inspect it. They also credit his newly created tab with the winnings rather than cashing him out. I'm assuming that when he leaves the next day, he will only get half the money, the other half having been assigned to the IRS?

Just FYI, a lot of the money floating around in casinos these days is not in the form of chips but rather in the form of little printed slips with bar codes on them. If the pile 'o chips got really high they might offer to redeem in the form of one of the slips.

Do casinos have their own banks in the sense that he'd potentially get a checkbook rather than 350K cash? If he wants cash, would they have it?

They'd have it in cash if he wanted. They could also do a certified check or I bet even wire it somewhere. But cash would definitely be an option.

The reason I say that is that outside the casinos there are always a lot of high-end luxury goods places (Bulgari, Ferrari dealerships, ...) where the lucky winner can turn his cash into baubles. They don't miss a trick, these guys.

Vegas also has some really phenomenal restaurants. Afterward you should have your guy eat at a place called Cut. They have kobe and/or wagyu beef, and their starters are hands down the best I've had anywhere, ever. I recommend either the bone marrow flan or perhaps the maple glazed pork belly. <le sigh>

I do so miss cholesterol.
 

GeorgeK

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little printed slips with bar codes on them..

Do they have the winner's name encoded? It seems like pickpocketting would be a problem.

It sounds like I have to give my MC a third, on the money roll to get the security to close the table, because I want security to pull him away and put him in a room. What's a realistic bet that they'd need permission but would allow? Or would it matter more if the gambler is up 1Million? 2 Million?

Vegas also has some really phenomenal restaurants. Afterward you should have your guy eat at a place called Cut. They have kobe and/or wagyu beef, and their starters are hands down the best I've had anywhere, ever. I recommend either the bone marrow flan or perhaps the maple glazed pork belly. <le sigh>

I do so miss cholesterol.

Vegas food must have improved since I was there 20 years ago. Everyone else raved about the food, but to me it was all stuff that I could easily cook better at home.
 
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shawkins

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Do they have the winner's name encoded? It seems like pickpocketting would be a problem.

Not encoded as such, but I bet they're linked to the (optional) casino loyalty cards. My understanding is that if you sign up for one of the casino rewards programs (I haven't) they give you something along the lines of a Kroger plus card.

When you're gambling, you swipe the card to associate it with the amount of money you bet. After you gamble X hundreds you get, I dunno, stuff. Show tickets, restaurant coupons, that sort of thing. The cards are mostly targeted at the slots and video poker/video roulette type machines, but I think they'll also work at tables with live dealers.

Losing the tickets or getting them swiped probably is a problem.

It sounds like I have to give my MC a third, on the money roll to get the security to close the table, because I want security to pull him away and put him in a room. What's a realistic bet that they'd need permission but would allow? Or would it matter more if the gambler is up 1Million? 2 Million?

I wouldn't think it would be so much the dollar amount as the odds he's beating. Say he nails 6 numbers in a row on the roulette wheel. He just beat odds of over two billion (36[SUP]6[/SUP]=2,176,782,336) to 1.

If I was in charge of security, I'd want a word.

I bet they'd take a 2 million bet at 36-to-1, but probably not much more than that. Not sure how much a casino takes in every year, but losing $72 million has GOT to put a dent in your quarterly report.

A couple of years ago I read a book about those MIT mathematicians who came up with a winning system at blackjack. The casino let them keep their fairly substantial winnings and no legs were broken, but they were told quite firmly not to come back. Ever.

They must have improved since I was there 20 years ago. Everyone else raved about the food, but to me it was all stuff that I could easily cook better at home.

I think it's part of the family-friendly rebranding kick they were on for a while. It's still perfectly possible to find a lousy buffet, but if you spend five minutes looking there are some really good restaurants.

Careful, though. At one point I accidentally spent $500 on lunch. (Literally. Not kidding. I wandered in to aqua-something for a quick bite. "So, you say the caviar is excellent this week? Sure! Don't mind if I do!")
 
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GeorgeK

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So three in a row won't rouse suspicion? (I mean more suspicion than just somebody in the C-Comm saying, Keep an extra pair of eyes on him.") I want him to get politely but firmly invited to stay while they review tapes, maybe inspect the table, try to do a background check...

What do they do with a gambler who gets falling down drunk?
 
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shawkins

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So three in a row won't rouse suspicion? (I mean more suspicion than just somebody in the C-Comm saying, Keep an extra pair of eyes on him.")

Three in a row is 1 in 38[SUP]3[/SUP]=54,872. Possible, but eyebrows would be raised. Hell, I raise an eyebrow when anybody gets one in a row on the roulette wheel. It has the worst odds of any game in Vegas, and skill is not a factor. (Blackjack is best.)

BTW, I was wrong in the last post. It should have been 38[SUP]6[/SUP], not 36[SUP]6[/SUP]. I forgot the zero and double zero slots on the wheel. It's still over two billion to one.

I want him to get politely but firmly invited to stay while they review tapes, maybe inspect the table, try to do a background check...

If he starts with $1, bets on a single number every time(not playing red/black or splitting his bets between two or four numbers) and gets it exactly right every time, he'd have $1,500,625 on the table after four spins. The odds against that are over two million (38[SUP]4[/SUP] =2,085,136) to 1.

Given the volume of people who go through Vegas it could happen every so often, but it would be a once-in-a-career type of thing for a pit boss. If I was him or her, that's the point at which I'd find an excuse to pull the guy aside and check the wheel for magnets or whatever.

I sat in on an Intro To Craps lecture by a pit boss. (Not a gambler, but I was curious.) He said something that stuck with me. His position was that it's not realistic to come out to Vegas and hope to win enough to retire, but you could realistically hope to win enough to pay for your trip. In his twenty plus year career he saw one guy turn $5 into over $100,000. This was rare enough that the *dealers* were advising him to take it and go back to his room, but the guy pushed on and lost everything.

What do they do with a gambler who gets falling down drunk?

I saw quite a few very drunk people in the casinos. From what I saw, as long as they're not starting fights or throwing up on the other guests it's pretty much live and let live. Hooting and hollering is tolerated to a certain extent, particularly if they're friendly and tip well. If they are starting fights, throwing up, or falling onto people, hotel guests will be politely but firmly moved to somewhere else. If they give the mover any crap they're going to jail. Money doesn't appear to be a factor, or at least not the only factor--Paris Hilton got busted for cocaine in the courtyard of the Wynn, IIRC. I got fairly drunk at the Wynn myself around the same time without incident, but I'm a quiet drunk.

It's a weird sort of environment--there are a lot of people who wouldn't normally mingle socially mingling socially. Chinese nationals have a big presence, as do hard core cowboy types from around the southwest, middle-age middle class milquetoasts and South Americans. The old parties on oxygen stick mostly to the slots, but most everybody else gathers around the tables and high-five each other when they win.
 

GeorgeK

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Thanks everyone!