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MariaL
10-24-2011, 02:51 AM
My main character needs to escape in a Sea King. You may be able to tell I haven't a clue!

Will he need a key to unlock the door, just as you would a car? Could he just smash in the window and climb in, push a button and fly off?

What problems would a Sea King expert face stealing one?

I can give him access to the pilot.

Thank you!

cbenoi1
10-24-2011, 03:56 AM
The MC would first have to go around the aircraft and remove all the chocks wedged around. They have red flags attached to them so they are easy to spot. Then the MC would have to board the aircraft and go through pre-flight check, which is basically turning on the electronics, heating some the parts that need heating, then fire up the main engine followed by rev'ing up the rotor blades.

We're talking a few minutes (5 - 8 minutes, maybe?) here before the MC is ready to fly. Just getting the blades up to speed is about 2 - 3 minutes.

-cb

thothguard51
10-24-2011, 04:27 AM
He will also need to check fuel levels as they don't leave these puppies laying around fully fueled.

Is this aboard an aircraft carrier or on land. Also, why a Sea King. Its a rather slow beast...

reiver33
10-24-2011, 05:58 AM
Assuming the MC can fly a helo, could the Sea King be warmed up, ready to go on some unrelated mission? However, he'd have to force the crew off (typically at least 3) without them screwing things up (like tossing something into the blades).

Could he simply force the crew to fly him someplace?

Buffysquirrel
10-24-2011, 03:56 PM
No, no keys. Just buttons.

MariaL
10-24-2011, 05:15 PM
I'm so glad I asked! Thank you to everyone who replied.

Helo is at a hospital car park in Iqaluit, Nanuvut, Canada. The helo landed say 15 mins ago. Assume the pilot has been requested to aid the search effort. (can they go solo?) Pilot could have remove the chocks etc, the MC takes out the pilot, the search party then assume it is the pilot warming up? Fuel is okay because the helo has to be able to return to base.

Sea King because this seems to be what Canada Air Force are using at the moment and the new Sikorsky's don't seem to have been delivered yet. I used a Cormorant for another S&R but thought the MC would be more familiar with Sea Kings and he could understand their 'decrepit' systems.


Not even a key to open the door? Would the pilot open the helo up before removing chocks.

Would a desperate MC forego any preflight checks?

Thank you!

thothguard51
10-24-2011, 05:35 PM
The helo could still be in idle mode, motors still running but blades stationary. This would keep the electronics up and the engine warm and ready.

The pilot could be walking around the helo checking systems when your MC takes him out. I would suspect that in Canada, the pilots would also carry pistols because of bears and stuff, but not really sure. If so, the MC is going to have to be really stealthy.

The thing is, if there are other search planes or helo's in the area, the Sea King is slow and its radar signature is huge, as is its heat signature...

Good luck on this...

MariaL
10-24-2011, 06:29 PM
The helo could still be in idle mode, motors still running but blades stationary. This would keep the electronics up and the engine warm and ready.

The pilot could be walking around the helo checking systems when your MC takes him out. I would suspect that in Canada, the pilots would also carry pistols because of bears and stuff, but not really sure. If so, the MC is going to have to be really stealthy.

The thing is, if there are other search planes or helo's in the area, the Sea King is slow and its radar signature is huge, as is its heat signature...

Good luck on this...

This I could do. Thank you.

Can he fly 'under the radar'?

How quickly does the heat signature dissipate on landing?
Is the heat signature only relevant if it was being tracked by something with missiles?

Noah Body
10-24-2011, 08:01 PM
Sea King is not a single-pilot aircraft. It needs two pilots and at least a crew chief before it can legally depart.

Full preflight needs to be done if the aircraft has been shut down. Start from the nose of the aircraft, work your way down the right side, inspecting pitot tubes, landing gear, sponsons, fluid sight gauges (especially in the tail rotor--don't know where it is on a SK, but it probably would involve a ladder to inspect), check the tail boom for any obvious signs of damage or dings--dents in the boom near the tail rotor drive shaft is a no-go condition--check the tail rotor assembly itself, continue up the left side toward the nose, and repeat all previous steps conducted on the right side. Look for leaks.

Never started a Sea King before, but unless they come equipped with FADEC, the engines will have to be started one at a time. Control friction off, rotor brake off, battery/generator on, fuel boost on (if applicable), starter motor engaged, apply fuel at 15% N1, watch the turbine temp as it spikes up and then should slowly wind down to normal, repeat the process for the next engine.

Check around on YouTube for videos of the aircraft powering up.

Found one here.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhL4_snDcCM)

MariaL
10-24-2011, 08:38 PM
Sea King is not a single-pilot aircraft. It needs two pilots and at least a crew chief before it can legally depart.

Full preflight needs to be done if the aircraft has been shut down. Start from the nose of the aircraft, work your way down the right side, inspecting pitot tubes, landing gear, sponsons, fluid sight gauges (especially in the tail rotor--don't know where it is on a SK, but it probably would involve a ladder to inspect), check the tail boom for any obvious signs of damage or dings--dents in the boom near the tail rotor drive shaft is a no-go condition--check the tail rotor assembly itself, continue up the left side toward the nose, and repeat all previous steps conducted on the right side. Look for leaks.

Never started a Sea King before, but unless they come equipped with FADEC, the engines will have to be started one at a time. Control friction off, rotor brake off, battery/generator on, fuel boost on (if applicable), starter motor engaged, apply fuel at 15% N1, watch the turbine temp as it spikes up and then should slowly wind down to normal, repeat the process for the next engine.

Check around on YouTube for videos of the aircraft powering up.

Found one here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhL4_snDcCM)


Thank You. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif The link is very helpful.

You said legally. Can an experienced rogue Air Force pilot illegally fly one solo?

If not, any suggestions for an alternative military helicopter transporting several Canadian Air Force security forces to contain a situation on Baffin Island?

Noah Body
10-24-2011, 09:01 PM
Tough to say. I know that I could fly a UH/MH-60 solo if required, but I severely doubt I could climb into a CH/MH-47 and do anything more thrilling than roll it over onto its side as I experiment with the joy and wonder of the beep levers on the collective. Of course, this is fiction, so your protag could do whatever is necessary, but expect lots of hate mail from those who know better--I've been dinged severely in the past, for transgressions both real and imagined.

Would an AF pilot know the specifics of Sea King ops? I know Wikipedia says the CAF flies them, but with the exception of the CH-124U, the rest are ASW or VERTREP birds. Again, you needn't embrace reality 100%. What is the mission the aircraft was originally positioned to conduct? You said the a/c is in a parking lot landing zone, but where is the rest of the flightcrew? It seems more likely to me that the crew chief would remain with the aircraft if the pilots were called off elsewhere.

I see you asked about flying below radar coverage...at 40 feet above the waves, even shipboard search radars won't return a flicker from the rotor blades, which would give the highest radar return. Pass a hundred feet though, and it'll show up nicely. And if there are other a/c in the area with what's been called "look down" radar (or SLAR), they could get a bead on the aircraft electronically. And then wonder why it's not responding to IFF interrogation. :)

MariaL
10-24-2011, 10:23 PM
Tough to say. I know that I could fly a UH/MH-60 solo if required, but I severely doubt I could climb into a CH/MH-47 and do anything more thrilling than roll it over onto its side as I experiment with the joy and wonder of the beep levers on the collective. Of course, this is fiction, so your protag could do whatever is necessary, but expect lots of hate mail from those who know better--I've been dinged severely in the past, for transgressions both real and imagined.

Would an AF pilot know the specifics of Sea King ops? I know Wikipedia says the CAF flies them, but with the exception of the CH-124U, the rest are ASW or VERTREP birds. Again, you needn't embrace reality 100%. What is the mission the aircraft was originally positioned to conduct? You said the a/c is in a parking lot landing zone, but where is the rest of the flightcrew? It seems more likely to me that the crew chief would remain with the aircraft if the pilots were called off elsewhere.

I see you asked about flying below radar coverage...at 40 feet above the waves, even shipboard search radars won't return a flicker from the rotor blades, which would give the highest radar return. Pass a hundred feet though, and it'll show up nicely. And if there are other a/c in the area with what's been called "look down" radar (or SLAR), they could get a bead on the aircraft electronically. And then wonder why it's not responding to IFF interrogation. :)


I'm trying for realistic!

MC is an experienced US AFSOC and Special Tactics trained AF Major. He has special talents including remote viewing, useful to pinpoint the search party's location and the status of the helo, crew, pilot. He's armed with a gun.

He's gone AWOL and ended up in the Iqaluit Hospital. At request of US, the Canadian Air Force has arrived to reinforce the USAF Colonel sent to track him down. (There are reasons why the Canadian government would fully cooperate with the US request.) although when the reinforcements were sent the MC was tranquilized in a hospital bed under armed guard. By the time they arrive, MC has escaped and disabled the US Colonel. He avoids the search party to reach the helicopter which he will be qualified to fly. (He has flown helicopters earlier in the book so that is established.)

He needs the helicopter to go further into the arctic wasteland, he can go under radar, and it is highly unlikely there would be anyone above to detect heat or radar signature before he lands and switches engine off.

But I need the right helicopter, able to travel some distance and preferably no air crew, just the pilot and the reinforcements he is transporting.

This is my first novel.I really don't want hatemail! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Any ideas?

Thank you for your help.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Buffysquirrel
10-24-2011, 10:48 PM
I know it is hard to imagine in our locked-up world, but no, no keys, not even for the doors. On most aircraft I've seen, you have a locking handle that you push in and drag. This would be why, as has been suggested, the crew chief would probably stay with the Sea King. There's always someone who 'just wants to take a look'. Ahem.

Your MC could overpower the crew chief, maybe.

There's nothing to stop you anticipating the Sikorsky's or indeed another helicopter that it's feasible for the Canadians to have. After all, the novel won't be published this week.

MariaL
10-24-2011, 11:00 PM
I know it is hard to imagine in our locked-up world, but no, no keys, not even for the doors. On most aircraft I've seen, you have a locking handle that you push in and drag. This would be why, as has been suggested, the crew chief would probably stay with the Sea King. There's always someone who 'just wants to take a look'. Ahem.

Your MC could overpower the crew chief, maybe.

There's nothing to stop you anticipating the Sikorsky's or indeed another helicopter that it's feasible for the Canadians to have. After all, the novel won't be published this week.

Okay, No key to get hold off! And so yes could overpower the crew chief, doesn't need to be the pilot.
The Sikorsky is two pilotsand poss too new for my MC. However how about AgustaWestland CH-149 Cormorant? That can be single pilot, and is all weather used for S&R so would be suitable for the cold weather conditions?

Wikipedia says
Crew: 5 (Aircraft Commander, First Officer, Flight Engineer, 2 SAR Techs)

I assume the aircraft commander is the pilot? And it can be flown without the rest?

Thank you!

Buffysquirrel
10-24-2011, 11:07 PM
The Flight Engineer would definitely argue the aircraft can't be flown without them :). It all depends on the cockpit layout. On some aircraft, the FE has a whole bank of instruments/controls all to himself, including quite often fuel management, that can't be reached from the pilot's seat.

Aircraft commander would be the senior pilot, yeah. The First Officer would also be a pilot, at a guess. I'm afraid I don't know how feasible solo operation would be.

cbenoi1
10-24-2011, 11:23 PM
> Helo is at a hospital car park in Iqaluit, Nanuvut, Canada.
> The helo landed say 15 mins ago.

It came from where? Maybe you should look at a map. Iqaluit is 1000s of miles away from anywhere. A military Bombardier Challenger 600 or a Boeing 737 is more likely to be used for such an operation.

-cb

Noah Body
10-24-2011, 11:31 PM
I'm trying for realistic!

MC is an experienced US AFSOC and Special Tactics trained AF Major. He has special talents including remote viewing, useful to pinpoint the search party's location and the status of the helo, crew, pilot. He's armed with a gun.

He's gone AWOL and ended up in the Iqaluit Hospital. At request of US, the Canadian Air Force has arrived to reinforce the USAF Colonel sent to track him down. (There are reasons why the Canadian government would fully cooperate with the US request.) although when the reinforcements were sent the MC was tranquilized in a hospital bed under armed guard. By the time they arrive, MC has escaped and disabled the US Colonel. He avoids the search party to reach the helicopter which he will be qualified to fly. (He has flown helicopters earlier in the book so that is established.)

He needs the helicopter to go further into the arctic wasteland, he can go under radar, and it is highly unlikely there would be anyone above to detect heat or radar signature before he lands and switches engine off.

But I need the right helicopter, able to travel some distance and preferably no air crew, just the pilot and the reinforcements he is transporting.

This is my first novel.I really don't want hatemail! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Any ideas?

Thank you for your help.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Making him AFSOC is easier. Have him with a SOW and make him an MH-53E driver. The PAVELOW is much, much, much more complex to fly than a -61 series, and it's not at all likely to have a million pizza racks of electronics to maintain and check before flight. The aircraft is retired now and was officially replaced by the V-22B in 2009 or 2010, but even if he's currently active duty and was an operator with the 8 or 20 (I think) SOS, then he should have the technical acumen to control the aircraft.

Just the same, a smaller airframe like the AW would be much easier to handle single pilot, and it comes with all sorts of cool things like FADEC which will automatically ensure the engines don't invoke a hot or hung start, enhanced aircraft survivability, and generally better maintainability than what an old Sikorsky would offer.

Have him pop with one of the active special operations squadrons, but research carefully...air commandos can be real PITAs when it comes to describing their heritage of service incorrectly. ;)

MariaL
10-24-2011, 11:46 PM
> Helo is at a hospital car park in Iqaluit, Nanuvut, Canada.
> The helo landed say 15 mins ago.

It came from where? Maybe you should look at a map. Iqaluit is 1000s of miles away from anywhere. A military Bombardier Challenger 600 or a Boeing 737 is more likely to be used for such an operation.

-cb


Yes, thanks. I did, and several news articles re S&R missions involving helicopters that were in the area. The helicopter won't leave the area, the MC will return it to the airport at Iqaluit where he has chartered a private plane to fly him to Newfoundland.

Q. A private plane can get from Iqaluit to Newfoundland can't it? Now that I did kind of assume.

cbenoi1
10-25-2011, 12:05 AM
> he has chartered a private plane

Ah. The chopper just happens to be there. It's not that it carries the team that brings him back in the states. Because that won't work.

> A private plane can get from Iqaluit to Newfoundland can't it?

Air Inuit has a few flights on King Air planes from the continent; seems seasonal though, like the one between Iqaluit and Kuujjuaq. Air Canada has a flight there from Gander, I think. First Air has a direct flight from Ottawa on a Boeing 737.


-cb

MariaL
10-25-2011, 12:09 AM
Making him AFSOC is easier. Have him with a SOW and make him an MH-53E driver. The PAVELOW is much, much, much more complex to fly than a -61 series, and it's not at all likely to have a million pizza racks of electronics to maintain and check before flight. The aircraft is retired now and was officially replaced by the V-22B in 2009 or 2010, but even if he's currently active duty and was an operator with the 8 or 20 (I think) SOS, then he should have the technical acumen to control the aircraft.

Just the same, a smaller airframe like the AW would be much easier to handle single pilot, and it comes with all sorts of cool things like FADEC which will automatically ensure the engines don't invoke a hot or hung start, enhanced aircraft survivability, and generally better maintainability than what an old Sikorsky would offer.

Have him pop with one of the active special operations squadrons, but research carefully...air commandos can be real PITAs when it comes to describing their heritage of service incorrectly. ;)

This sounds good. I'm translating to make sure I understood you correctly.

MC served with a special operations wing that has flown MH-53M Pave Low (possibly serving with 8 or 20 Special Op Squadron when 53's were in use). He will then be able to fly a Augusta Westland Cormorant with Canadian US military that was in Nunavut. And I mention the FADAC to show he has the techno wizardry he needs to handle it!

Thank you so much.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

MariaL
10-25-2011, 12:14 AM
> he has chartered a private plane

Ah. The chopper just happens to be there. It's not that it carries the team that brings him back in the states. Because that won't work.

> A private plane can get from Iqaluit to Newfoundland can't it?

Air Inuit has a few flights on King Air planes from the continent; seems seasonal though, like the one between Iqaluit and Kuujjuaq. Air Canada has a flight there from Gander, I think. First Air has a direct flight from Ottawa on a Boeing 737.


-cb

That's great, I'll research these possibilities a little bit more. Thank you. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Noah Body
10-25-2011, 12:18 AM
This sounds good. I'm translating to make sure I understood you correctly.

MC served with a special operations wing that has flown MH-53M Pave Low (possibly serving with 8 or 20 Special Op Squadron when 53's were in use). He will then be able to fly a Augusta Westland Cormorant with Canadian US military that was in Nunavut. And I mention the FADAC to show he has the techno wizardry he needs to handle it!

Thank you so much.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
The last designation I was aware of were MH-53J, but they could have gone through an incremental upgrade to an M designation.

FADEC stands for Full Authority Digital Engine Control...it's basically a computer that monitors the ignition process for a turboshaft engine. It makes it much easier to start the aircraft.

Canadian US military has me at a loss though... :)