Making winged humanoids believable and natural...

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Escape Artist

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I'm not too keen on the title I gave this thread as I'm not sure it really conveys what I'm trying to say, but here goes...

I'm looking for either book recommendations (fiction or otherwise) or tips on making a winged humanoid creature as believable as possible. He is a grim reaper - in my story, they are a race of beings, not just one guy - so I suppose I could explain away some things supernaturally, but I'd like for his wings to be as organic (maybe that's the word I'm looking for - I dunno) as possible.

Some details: his wings are like that of a bird, and I know that birds spend a great deal of time caring for their wings - preening, cleaning, etc. How would he preen them? I know that little reaper babies and toddlers will flutter their wings in the bath or even take a dust bath if they get near a sandbox and I can see the adults showering or what not, though of course they might need a bigger shower than your typical human, but I'm just not sure about the preening as they don't have beaks. Their wings are of the more silent type, like an owl's are, if that makes any difference at all.

Another thing I've wondered about is body weight. Birds are light and have hollow bones (from what little I understand of them) so does that mean my guy would need to be built that way as well? What would the repercussions of that be? Would he be more fragile, etc.? But then, bumblebees fly and aren't they technically too big for their wings to carry them? This guy is lean and lithe, definitely on the skinny side, but there's another reaper who'd I'd class as a bumblebee - a big, muscular guy and yet he flies, too. Now, as a note, my reapers would most likely have fewer organs in their bodies than we do. They subsist off of pure soul energy and there is nothing left to waste - they have no need of intestines or anything else that assists the body in ridding itself of waste. Roughly how many organs would get the boot because of this, and which ones? Keep in mind that they do have a stomach-like organ and that they can feed their young through cropping (not sure what organs birds possess that allow them to do that - gotta look that up).

I've also wondered about the flexibility of the wings and how dexterous they could be without compromising flight. Say, if they're as nimble as fingers, would they be too flexible for flying?

And then of course there are the everyday concerns to contend with - how does a reaper sleep? On their stomachs, I assume as lying on their wings would be uncomfortable. What kind of furniture would reapers use? I tend to think they'd have backless chairs if only to ease the accommodation of their wings and that when using human chairs, they wrap their wings around their middles. As far as transportation, I figure they fly most places but some of them do like to ride motorcycles on occasion (I'm thinking cars would feel too cramped for them). But do those things come across as believable to you guys?

I'm assuming weather would ground them on occasion (heavy snow or rain) and that they'd probably get a little depressed or stir-crazy if grounded for too long.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'd like the reader to be able to suspend as little disbelief as possible.
 
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Darkshore

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I'm guilty of having read one or two of these novels....James Patterson has written a few MG books dealing with children that have been specifically bred in labs to have hollow bones, wings, strength, etc. They weren't really that good, but they weren't awful and they might help you with an idea of how to make believable winged beings. The series is called Maximum Ride I believe.
 

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Two books/series that have done a tolerable job of portraying winged humanoids: the recent THE CLOUD ROADS by Martha Wells, and Laurie Marks' 'Children of the Triad' series. Neither of these have a human main character, but the MCs are human-enough, and the mechanics of flight (and the bodies that result) are well-addressed.

Patterson's stuff isn't even worth reading for research, since he obviously couldn't be bothered to do his.
 

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I'm sure there was a thread either here or in the research forum earlier this year about large birds; from what I remember the conclusion was that something bigger than human size can fly, but it's more likely to glide than flap.

My guess is that you'd need a skeleton made of something tougher than bone (so the muscle forces didn't break it apart) and muscles made of something other than muscle, so you could flap the wings with enough power to fly, and you'd need much larger wings than you'd see on an angel painting.

I have flying humans in one of my SF novels, but I cheat; they live on a low-gravity asteroid where angel-like wings are perfectly viable.
 

Fenika

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Dinosaurs did just fine with their muscles and bones. They just need the right anatomy to handle the physiology.

Wings come up a lot on this forum. There was one a few months ago with a lot of discussion.
 

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I like the low-gravity idea, though I wouldn't be able to use it for my WIP. I'm writing an urban fantasy (though it could possibly be classified as contemporary fantasy, idk), and so as with all fantasy, I as a writer assume that the reader is going to come into the book expecting to suspend a certain level of disbelief. They want an escape and so would be more willing than readers of other genres to believe the unbelievable. Still, if I'm going to expect the reader to believe that these guys can fly despite the fact that science would say it's impossible due to their size, I'd like to make everything else as realistic as possible (the caring of their wings, the dexterity of them, etc.). I'm the kind of reader who can suspend a hell of a lot of disbelief - so long as the story is engaging, I really don't question things too much - but I know not all readers are like that.

P.S. - I'll be sure to check out other threads on here for further wing discussion. Thanks!
 
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sunandshadow

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With winged humanoids, as a reader I'd be more concerned that their culture was realistic than anything about their anatomy. I have some stories about feathered dragon people and I haven't had one reader tell me their ability to fly makes no sense, instead they comment on the plot, the character consistency, the dialogue, etc.
 

Kelkelen

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They'd need *massive* pectoral muscles. That's the key feature of all flying anatomy, I think. Lighter, hollower bones would be good, but the main thing is that human musculature is nowhere near flight-capable. So your fliers might just have to look a bit more avian, particularly in the torso -- think of the shape of a bird's torso; that's almost ALL pectoral muscle. Also, are the reapers going to have arms and hands? In avian anatomy, the arm and hand bones = the wing. With all your wondering about furniture and things, I would again look to birds. Do the reapers have humanoid feet, or avian? Often, birds are capable of "locking" their feet and knees around a branch, and sleeping while clinging to it.
 

Darkshore

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Ouch. I knew there was a lot of Patterson hate hehe. I can't really recall the specifics since it was quite a long time ago that I gave one of those a read, but it must have been worse than I recalled.
 

jaeladarling

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Your humanoid will need to look quite different if you're trying to make this as realistic as possible. As others have said, souped-up pecs are up there on the priority list.

As for bone structure...well, you could have hollow bones, but what if their bones are hollow and made of a different type of bone? Your comment about bumblebees had me thinking that not every flying thing is made equal. Bumblebees don't have bones, after all. So maybe your humanoid doesn't have to be a weakling; maybe it could have a special bone type found in those flying humanoids. Like, hollow but with a certain lightweight yet strong coating or something to maintain strength.

As for preening, if you're worried about them getting all those little hard-to-reach areas, why not allow their heads to move either all the way around or enough to look backwards, like an owl? And then their eyes could have a surrounding gaze too, so they can see better. If they have longer arms or are able to pop them out of joint and stretch them, then that could also help them clean their wings.

If you're worried about sleep, take note from flamingos and let them sleep standing up. I think backless furniture would be great for this type of creature, as you have suggested. As far as motorcycles go, that's too far-fetched for me (personal opinion only), but maybe you could concoct something similar that wouldn't sound so strange.

Hope that rambling helps some. :)
 

BunnyMaz

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Preening could be a bonding activity, like grooming was for our ape ancestors. As humans, we still groom our children and we may help out our loved ones (I plait the Mister's hair for him and I'm responsible for trimming his hair and beard). There's little, bodily, that we need help from others for grooming-wise, though. In a species where the wings are attached to a humanoid frame, with its short, less flexible neck, I can imagine mutual grooming remaining a much more acceptable activity.

Remember with bees, that their insect wings move in a very different way to those of birds and have no skeleton, which means calculations of wing size versus body size aren't going to translate between the two.
 

Jess Haines

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Sharon Shinn's books would probably fit the bill for what you're searching for. I started with ARCHANGEL. It's very good. Don't have time to go into the details, but there are genetically engineered "angels" who watch over the populace. Check 'em out.
 

SPMiller

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In an Earth-like environment, with the atmosphere and the gravity we have, winged humanoids cannot be both scientifically believable and aesthetically attractive. They would, in essence, have to look more like birds than humans. The popular image of a standard human simply having a pair of wings stuck onto the mid- or upper-back is laughably bad.

Better to just not care about the science and write it however you want.
 
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Elise-K-Ra'sha

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I have winged humanoids in some of my works as well, and one is a famous warrior not only amongst his clan but throughout the established world as well. He can no longer fly due to the number of battles he's fought in and the fact his wings have been broken numerous times. They've been tended to properly so it's hard to tell just by looking at him that they've been broken, but, because they have, he just can't use them to support his weight in flight. That's one thing I had to consider with him and just how proud/snooty he was of his appearance. ^_^
 

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In an Earth-like environment, with the atmosphere and the gravity we have, winged humanoids cannot be both scientifically believable and aesthetically attractive. They would, in essence, have to look more like birds than humans. The popular image of a standard human simply having a pair of wings stuck onto the mid- or upper-back is laughably bad.

Better to just not care about the science and write it however you want.

That's what I'm thinking - just forget the science and write the damn thing (as I've been doing). I guess I just see comments on books or reviews, etc. and people seem to nitpick these type of things so I wanted to make it at least a little more plausible. But people read about vampires and werewolves all the time and to me, the whole shape-shifter thing is one of the most difficult to believe. It's harder for me to believe that a creature can completely change its shape than to believe that there could be a race of beings who look very similar to us and yet can fly. When I see a big-ass airplane in the sky, my brain says that thing should not be able to fly, but it's up there nonetheless. I think I'd think the same thing if I saw a guy flying up in the sky - that there is an explanation for his being able to do so (whether supernatural or natural) and I just don't know what it is. This is one of those situations that most likely boils down to writing what I would like to read and just hoping there are other who'd like to read something similar and want to read it enough that they're willing to suspend disbelief on the whole physics aspect of it.
 

Martin Persson

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The wingspan of a winged human need to be huge for them to be able to fly. They need to have bigger area then a hang glider to be able to lift of the ground. And since they have different shape then the hang gliders you need to compensate by being long. And to flap them you need a breast muscles so big it would be like two extra torsos on the body.

You need to make their homeworld smaller, thus having lesser of that thing called gravity to annoy them. Otherwise making winged humanoids realistic is not possible.
 

Jamesaritchie

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You can always set the story on a planet with a thicker atmosphere. This makes flight much easier. If there's a problem, it's that other SF writers have already used this device.
 

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There were prersaurs that had wing span of 30 feet. I don't recall what they weighed. They were, like all large birds, giders that probably rode thermals. There are humans who weigh considerably less than 100 pounds, so there are possibilities. You might compare the weight to area ratios that are used for hang gliders. Between small body weight and large wings I think it would be possible.

As another noted, it's magic. Harpies were written about a few thousand years ago, and they were unlikely.
 

Kelkelen

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Also, there's no reason why humans would grow feathers. We'd probably have hairy skin wings, like bats. That is NOT to nit-pick; just saying that I agree, you should write them looking how you want and science be damned! If you actually tried to make a flying race that was scientifically plausible, in the end, you would have invented... a large bird.
 

Martin Persson

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You can always set the story on a planet with a thicker atmosphere. This makes flight much easier. If there's a problem, it's that other SF writers have already used this device.

Would make absolutely no difference because the preasure within the body would also be higher and increase the body mass.
 

Elise-K-Ra'sha

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Would make absolutely no difference because the preasure within the body would also be higher and increase the body mass.

I think when it comes to fantasy, it ultimately doesn't matter. There are things in real life that defy all scientific logic. Bumblebees can fly and they shouldn't even be able to given how delicate and fragile their wings are compared to their body mass.
 

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I also went for the winged people being in a lower gravity setting, as well as significantly lighter which has quite a lot of implications when is comes to day-to-day activities. As for furniture, the didn't use it very much as the wings are too long to sit down.
 
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