Aramaic?

melnve · Oct 15, 2011

I've done a bit of a Google, and I think the written language is similar to Hebrew, is that right?

I am specifically looking for the Aramaic word for family, and I found this: משפחה

Does that look right? Or is that Hebrew and it would be different in Aramaic? If it's correct, how would it be pronounced?

Thank you for any help!

MJM · Oct 15, 2011

Pretty sure that's Hebrew... sorry, I've been looking, but I don't have the right font package to use some of the sites. I'll keep looking, though. But, yes, the written language does look very similar to Hebrew.

melnve · Oct 15, 2011

Thanks - I wasn't sure how similar the languages were, and I thought this was probably Hebrew.

Snick · Oct 15, 2011

I am not an expert in those languages, but a few years ago I reead in a few places that late versions of Aramaic could be mistaken for Arabic. Apparently there were many dialects of Aramaic, and I believe that it is still spoken by a few small groups.

melnve · Oct 15, 2011

Snick said:
I am not an expert in those languages, but a few years ago I reead in a few places that late versions of Aramaic could be mistaken for Arabic. Apparently there were many dialects of Aramaic, and I believe that it is still spoken by a few small groups.

Interesting... I know lots of kids who speak and write Arabic, so if it is similar then I might be in a better position - I don't know anyone who speaks Hebrew (or Aramaic, obviously since I'm asking here).

Thanks!

MJM · Oct 15, 2011

melnve said:
Interesting... I know lots of kids who speak and write Arabic, so if it is similar then I might be in a better position - I don't know anyone who speaks Hebrew (or Aramaic, obviously since I'm asking here).

Thanks!

The expamples I've seen are from the Talmud, which would be something (I think) around 600 BC in Babylonia. In the text I referred to for my previous post, the letter looked nearly identical; most significant differences would be in usage, and in the addition of aspects of the Phoenecian alphabet.

The alphabet, like most languages, morphed over time and varied somewhat regionally. If you have more specific time-frame and region, it would help.

melnve · Oct 15, 2011

MJM said:
If you have more specific time-frame and region, it would help.

The character that is using it is a cult leader who thinks he's the second coming of Christ. I was toying with the idea of the cult being called The Family (he preys on teens with bad home lives who have not had much of a family before, so it would work well), but there is actually a well known cult of that name (not sure if they're just here in Australia). So I thought, what if he's calling himself Yeshua and naming his group in Aramaic?

So I guess it doesn't matter too much how accurate it is, because he can always be wrong about it (he too perhaps had trouble Googling it!).

MJM · Oct 15, 2011

melnve said:
The character that is using it is a cult leader who thinks he's the second coming of Christ. I was toying with the idea of the cult being called The Family (he preys on teens with bad home lives who have not had much of a family before, so it would work well), but there is actually a well known cult of that name (not sure if they're just here in Australia). So I thought, what if he's calling himself Yeshua and naming his group in Aramaic?

So I guess it doesn't matter too much how accurate it is, because he can always be wrong about it (he too perhaps had trouble Googling it!).

With a cult leader, you could so just about anything as long as you give a "reason" -- quotes because the reason only has to make sense to the cult leader. I am sure I have heard of 'the family' here in the US,too. I haven't been able to find good, user-friendly English-Aramaic reference works online, but I can keep poking around (FYI -- BA + grad studies in Bible/theology). I may even have some Aramaic reference works somewhere on my shelves -- pretty sure I do -- but haven't been able to locate them.

EDIT: According to http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-top10cults.html , #7 on their top-ten list of cults in the US is: "The Family (Children of God).
This communal group was founded by David “Moses” Berg. A strange mixture of basic Christian tenets and almost total sexual license. Very controlling and manipulative."

EDIT: Given the relative obscurity of Aramaic, and the difficulty of determining word usage, Hebrew would seem to be the better choice. The word you listed above is "mishpachah" --pronunciation audio at http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=04940

melnve · Oct 15, 2011

MJM said:
With a cult leader, you could so just about anything as long as you give a "reason" -- quotes because the reason only has to make sense to the cult leader. I am sure I have heard of 'the family' here in the US,too. I haven't been able to find good, user-friendly English-Aramaic reference works online, but I can keep poking around (FYI -- BA + grad studies in Bible/theology). I may even have some Aramaic reference works somewhere on my shelves -- pretty sure I do -- but haven't been able to locate them.

I could potentially just go with Hebrew for the sake of making it a little easier on myself, but any help is very, very gratefully received! I suppose the other factor is ease of pronunciation--I think if readers have no idea how to say a word or if it's a difficult word it can be jarring.

MJM said:
EDIT: According to http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-top10cults.html , #7 on their top-ten list of cults in the US is: "The Family (Children of God).
This communal group was founded by David “Moses” Berg. A strange mixture of basic Christian tenets and almost total sexual license. Very controlling and manipulative."

I think there was another one here too, I just read up a little on it, there was a big Federal Police raid and they were feeding children LSD and beating them. I've heard of the Berg one in the USA too, now that you mention it. I suppose it's a good name for a cult then, and I was right to try and find an alternative. I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of a cult really...

Thanks again!

Smiling Ted · Oct 15, 2011

The word you found is pronounced "mishpakha" and it is the Hebrew (and Yiddish) word for "family." It may also be an acceptable Aramaic term. Talmudic Aramaic has a lot of Hebrew "loan words," like the French, German, and Latin loan words you can find in English. While your crazy messiah might know Hebrew, it's unlikely he'd know Talmudic Aramaic - it was not regarded as a holy language, and was not the language of the Torah, only of the books of interpretation of the Torah. The only people I've ever met who know Talmudic Aramaic are religious Jews.

Also, Hebrew has several alphabets. The one you've found is known as ktav marubi ("square writing") and also ktav ashuri ("Assyrian writing") and was first used in Aramaic, and then ultimately adopted by Hebrew speakers. It is the script you'll find in Torah scrolls, copies of the Talmud, and Israeli newspapers. An earlier script known as "Paleo-Hebrew" gradually fell out of use and is now used primarily by Samaritan communities in Israel.

And the Talmud was finalized around 500 CE, not BCE.

Hope that helps.

MJM · Oct 15, 2011

Smiling Ted said:
.

And the Talmud was finalized around 500 CE, not BCE.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the correction on my dates -- had two separate thoughts going on.

Smiling Ted · Oct 15, 2011

MJM said:
Thanks for the correction on my dates -- had two separate thoughts going on.

melnve · Oct 16, 2011

Smiling Ted said:
The word you found is pronounced "mishpakha" and it is the Hebrew (and Yiddish) word for "family." It may also be an acceptable Aramaic term. Talmudic Aramaic has a lot of Hebrew "loan words," like the French, German, and Latin loan words you can find in English. While your crazy messiah might know Hebrew, it's unlikely he'd know Talmudic Aramaic - it was not regarded as a holy language, and was not the language of the Torah, only of the books of interpretation of the Torah. The only people I've ever met who know Talmudic Aramaic are religious Jews.

Also, Hebrew has several alphabets. The one you've found is known as ktav marubi ("square writing") and also ktav ashuri ("Assyrian writing") and was first used in Aramaic, and then ultimately adopted by Hebrew speakers. It is the script you'll find in Torah scrolls, copies of the Talmud, and Israeli newspapers. An earlier script known as "Paleo-Hebrew" gradually fell out of use and is now used primarily by Samaritan communities in Israel.

And the Talmud was finalized around 500 CE, not BCE.

Hope that helps.

Thank you! I'm so grateful for everyone sharing their vast knowledge with me. I had kind of thought that he might be the type who finds out little snippets of information--just enough to sound as if he might know everything to impressionable teens. I suspect Hebrew might be the best solution though, so thanks for the translation.

Aramaic?

melnve

MJM

Not a fish, already have thick skin

melnve

Snick

melnve

MJM

Not a fish, already have thick skin

melnve

MJM

Not a fish, already have thick skin

melnve

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

MJM

Not a fish, already have thick skin

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

melnve