What do you think of this?? What you write vs. your job

If students came forward saying he violated them I'd be angry. Other than that who cares? I was reading Danielle Steel books at 12 and I am not a deviant and I knew the facts from the fiction. He has the right to dream or imagine (It's not my place to judge) anything he wishes so long as he never practiced what he wrote out loud. I write murder in nearly every book, but I don't plan to go on a killing spree.
That's just my opinion though.

The title of the article certainly makes it sound creepy, especially since he's a teacher. But, my question is this: is the book really soft porn?

The Sexteens website says it's a novel that deals with the issues teens face today.

I don't know, I personally would want to find out more before making any kind of judgement about the book.

Not just his imagination, I'm thinking life is imitating art in this case. Not saying he's done it, I'm saying he's gathering story ideas from his position on that board.

But isn't teen (heck, 9th graders are still children in my book) porn illegal?

Shadow_Ferret said:

But isn't teen (heck, 9th graders are still children in my book) porn illegal?

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Of course, but this isn't porn. It's fiction.

Is it troubling? Yes. I understand how parents would be uncomfortable with this teacher and ask for an explanation, even an investigation into his private life. But that is a little scary, too. Writing is the realm of the imagination. There are many, many YA books out there that deal with underage sex, rape, molestation by adults, abuse, etc. Should all writers on such topics have their private lives scrutinized if they work with children? Why don't crime writers in law enforcement face that kind of scrutiny?

Our culture is especially sensitive to issues of child abuse. Sometimes that sensitivity creates false positives and sees wrongdoing where there is none. I'm not defending this teacher's work (wouldn't judge until I'd read it), but on principle, writing fiction about topics like underage sex and pedophilia should not cast the writer under aspersion. The book should be read and evaluated on its own, irrespective of the author. If it portrays sexual abuse in an approving manner, then scrutiny of the author, especially if the author works with children, is fair. But it's important not to let concern for children's welfare turn into a witch hunt.

I'm not exactly happy with the notion of a witch-hunt into his past, but what you do in your free time is sometimes relevant to your job--if folks found out the head of the JADL was spending his free time writing a sequel to Mein Kampf, I don't think anyone would be shocked at him getting into some trouble. Religious figures routinely get tossed under the bus for after-work extracurriculars, and a judge who wrote lurid stories that seemed to glorify rape would also probably find some trouble for it. A judge who patronized hookers almost certainly would, when outed. Your home life is your home life, but some things can be so 100% in opposition to your work life that they leave doubts about how you can perform your work.

FWIW, I'm not really judging the book at all, just pointing out it was probably a bad mix with his current work, and one or the other should have perhaps been altered, or he was running a certain risk he should have accepted. Less a "is this right" than a "shouldn't he have seen this coming?"

Many employment contracts allow the employer to fire an employee for immoral behavior off the job. Defining "immoral behavior" is the hard part.

I'd say publishing a book like this doesn't prove the author is a criminal, but it does show a lack of professional judgment that would deeply concern me.

Of course without having read the book it's impossible to say with certainty that it's a problem. But for the head of a disciplinary committee dealing with inappropriate teacher-student interactions to write a book where all of the male characters are sexual harassers, and the female students seem to all be whores, and when a female student is groped it's played off like she's making a big deal over nothing, especially given what the article says about the way the committee seems more and more to be protecting bad teachers...it looks like a big old red flag to me. I'd love to know what "peer pressure" it's supposed to be helping teenagers learn to avoid.

And as Phael said, if nothing else it shows a stunning lack of professional judgment.

Were this guy head of anything at my daughters' school, I'd be wanting to read this book, and I have a feeling I'd be wanting him and his erection and his high-school-girl-fantasies well away from my children. Because it certainly sounds/looks as if he's a teenage boy in a pervert teacher's body, and like he considers teenage girls to be little more than sexual playthings, and just reading the article made me feel ill.

Again, yes, it's possible the article is misrepresenting the book. But if it isn't, that guy needs to not have a position of responsibility over young people ever again.

I wouldn't want him teaching my kids. The choices we make come with consequences. He made his choices, and he wasn't very bright to think there wouldn't be consequences.

leahzero said:

Of course, but this isn't porn. It's fiction.


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Most of the written porn out there is fiction. This has been true for centuries. Wherever did you get the idea that porn and fiction couldn't be the same thing? Do you think only photos are porn?

this was in current events last week:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226586

anyways, this is a pretty extreme case. nothing like Judy Mays, who taught high school English and writes for Ellora's Cave under a penname. Having her teach kids doesn't bother me one bit, but this guy is different.

Later news articles suggest that the Ontario College of Teachers has been quite lenient in dealing with teachers who behave inappropriately with students (eg. 1 mth suspensions for some pretty bad behaviour), and the National Post suggested he should have resigned for these reasons anyways.

Whether we like it or not, some professions that involve direct or indirect interaction with children require a greater degree of public scrutiny and approval. Of course this guy has the right to have personal activities in his private time, but like others have said, his chosen subject matter is going to raise questions about his role in dealing with children or with the people who teach children. When the public shucks up tax money to pay teachers, those teachers are subject to greater scrutiny for their life's activities (fair or not fair). And while I will defend the rights of these people to have their private interests, I can't condone it when they stretch those interests into areas of questionable taste or suspicion-triggering actions. It can hurt the entire profession. We can argue artistic rights all we want, but public confidence in the education system and its employees is something that taxpayers will require.

And possibly he could have partially defused some of the criticism by making the characters 18 years old instead of 16 years old, which puts a very different legal spin on the behavior of those characters. I'm not naive enough to think 16 year-olds don't do that kind of stuff, but if the works of this author involve detailed description of the sexual adventures of underage teens, he has stepped into some rather ragged territory.

You know, it's hard for me to judge the book without reading it (and from the lines quoted, I don't care to, thanks) but I am quite sure of one thing.

You have to be a damn idiot to put a story like that out there given his day job. Fair or not, some actions are going to have consequences, and the consequences for this one are hardly surprising given the contents of this novel.

Or the cover art, alone.

I'm torn. On one hand, I think it's pretty dreadful if a teacher can't write adult stories intended for an adult audience.

On the other hand, I don't get the impression that this is really an adult story. And it isn't a teen story either. Okay, I'm basing this on the extracts...but this isn't about adults falling for other adults, or even about teen romance and sex. This is the sort of style of language which is used in adult erotica being applied to 15 year old girls' bodies. That's what makes me uncomfortable here - that this is an adult-style sex fantasy about not very old teens.

I'd be intrigued to know whether the excerpts are biased, because in the article they are all based on the sexiness of young girls. I'd probably find it slightly less disturbing if it presents young men in the same light.

Drake, I'm pretty sure the objects of sexual desire in Danielle Steele aren't children. That, to me, is the issue here, not the fact he's writing stories with sexual desire in.

It is the author's goal for the story to be read by teens if you go by the website.

I find the whole thing creepy.

And considering he used the word "concupiscence" in a teen book, a little pretentious.

It all strikes me as an older man's fantasy rather than a book meant to "to empower teenagers, to encourage them to be strong and resist or avoid peer pressure."

concupiscence?

wow.

where'd he get one from? a new word (to me). yippee!

(as re: OP, doenst sound good, but i'd have to read the material as the tone in the article seems a tad hysterical)

bettielee said:

And considering he used the word "concupiscence" in a teen book, a little pretentious.

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I have just learnt a new word.

I'm not sure if that says more about the pretentiousness of his language or my sheltered upbringing, given that the target audience for this book is allegedly my daughter.

bettielee said:

I find the whole thing creepy.

And considering he used the word "concupiscence" in a teen book, a little pretentious.

It all strikes me as an older man's fantasy rather than a book meant to "to empower teenagers, to encourage them to be strong and resist or avoid peer pressure."

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ha ha. snap - didnt see your post. Some interesting def on the net for it. esp the Catholic Ency def.

as for old man's fantasy, possibly, but i do remember these type of novels, Onward Virgin Soldiers etc back in the day.

Anyway, as i'm notgoing to read the novels, i cant make a judgement

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

In its widest acceptation, concupiscence is any yearning of the soul for good; in its strict and specific acceptation, a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. To understand how the sensuous and the rational appetite can be opposed, it should be borne in mind that their natural objects are altogether different. The object of the former is the gratification of the senses; the object of the latter is the good of the entire human nature and consists in the subordination of reason to God, its supreme good and ultimate end.

skylark said:

I'm torn. On one hand, I think it's pretty dreadful if a teacher can't write adult stories intended for an adult audience.

On the other hand, I don't get the impression that this is really an adult story. And it isn't a teen story either. Okay, I'm basing this on the extracts...but this isn't about adults falling for other adults, or even about teen romance and sex. This is the sort of style of language which is used in adult erotica being applied to 15 year old girls' bodies. That's what makes me uncomfortable here - that this is an adult-style sex fantasy about not very old teens.

I'd be intrigued to know whether the excerpts are biased, because in the article they are all based on the sexiness of young girls. I'd probably find it slightly less disturbing if it presents young men in the same light.

Drake, I'm pretty sure the objects of sexual desire in Danielle Steele aren't children. That, to me, is the issue here, not the fact he's writing stories with sexual desire in.(I am pretty sure some of them are written with child rape and teen aged sex. My point was more that children will read these things, it seems better to make sure they understand it isn't real.)

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I would have been very worried if he tried to hide it, say a pen name? Then it would seem he was aware what he was doing wasn't going to be ok. As is I am sure he assumed his imaginative fiction wouldn't be read as if it were a Memoir. Again, I read 'Firefly' by Piers Anthony at the kitchen table during dinner in my Grandmothers home at the tender age of thirteen. No rules to what I read, but I am pretty sure I have not suffered for it. Just as I am sure the teens who read books like this will be fine. Kids want to think their parents don't have sex and parents don't want to think their teen have sex. The more taboo we make it the more thrill kids get from doing it.

Just my two cents.

After further reading of the preamble at their website, I would not want to read the book. It's poorly written and talks all about this secret teen sex society. Believe me, teens do not need any help in discovering their sexuality. Never have.

Why does this teacher think it's his place to deal with teen sexual issues at all? He's a teacher, he supposed to teach that which will help them go on to the next step of work or college. If I had kids, I would have something to say to the school board. I wonder how parents are reacting to his book at that school?

Someone else said here said they would be more worried if he wrote under a pseudonym. I partially agree with this, because then it would appear he was trying to hide. However, that he is own in the open with his name makes it just as bad.

for me, the issue is not:
1) That he's writing about sex
2) or even that he's writing about teens having sex.
I mean, if Judy Blume were in this role, I don't think I'd be complaining.

It's the way in which he's apparently writing about teens having sex with what sounds like zero sensitivity. I can't know for sure without having read the book (which I have no desire to read); this is just based on the article.

I'd like to point out that a lot of moms write porn of the underaged variety. Twilight porn, Harry Potter porn, anime porn (tons of anime characters are about 15 and this deters no one). Incest is also popular.

Somehow I doubt these moms are perving on their own kids or urging them to try incest...

Anna L. said:

I'd like to point out that a lot of moms write porn of the underaged variety.

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Really? Can I see actual statistics to back this up?

Anna L. said:

I'd like to point out that a lot of moms write porn of the underaged variety. Twilight porn, Harry Potter porn, anime porn (tons of anime characters are about 15 and this deters no one). Incest is also popular.

Somehow I doubt these moms are perving on their own kids or urging them to try incest...

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Smutty fanfiction is its own universe with its own audience, and I don't think it bears any relevence to this article.

This guy strikes me as a creepy perv trying to justify his creepiness by calling it ~~Art~~. "But you can't censor me--it's litrachuh!" I'm not buying it. If he were a writer of adult erotica aimed at adults, that'd be one thing. This sounds like he's self-published his own fantasies of hyper-sexed teens and trying to pass it off as "empowering" so he can justify it.