THIS MAY SOUND LIKE A DUMB QUESTION

Are you asking about whether there is a standard amount of an advance? Or am I not understanding the question?

I'm not an agent, so please feel free to disregard my reply. Okay, here it is: ?

I honestly didn't understand the question. Good luck!

Jon

question

thestoryangel said:

I was wondering for a first time writer getting published how much is usually a standard that the writer between what and what?

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I'm afraid I don't understand the question, either.

I get the feeling the question is in regards to how much money is involved as a standard advance. Or at least along those lines. Unfortunately it's a pretty near impossible question to answer.

thestoryangel said:

I was wondering for a first time writer getting published how much is usually a standard that the writer between what and what?

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Your question is muddy. Perhaps you meant to ask, "I was wondering, for a first-time writer getting published, how much is usually a standard that the writer receives? Between what and what?" Even what I've suggested is still awkward.

I've heard of advances that range anywhere from a pathetic $5000 to whopping mega-deals of $500,000 or more. It really depends on so many variables-the likelihood of sales, the author's reputation (or lack thereof), the marketability of the book, and so on. There's really no way to gauge advance amounts, other than that it probably won't be less than $5000. Generally, I'd go so far as to say anywhere from $10,000 to $300,000 might be a reasonable amount to expect, but it just depends on your publisher and how good your agent is at negotiating deals.

You think $5,000 is pathetic? It's probably the industry average!

Andrew Zack said:

You think $5,000 is pathetic? It's probably the industry average!

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How depressing. That's barely a months work in my profession. Now I know why getting published was never a priority in life. I enjoy writing, but writing a novel and all the work involved for $5,000 isn't very motivating.

Jon

SpookyWriter said:

I enjoy writing, but writing a novel and all the work involved for $5,000 isn't very motivating.

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Don't write it for $5,000. I agree, that is depressing. Write it because it's going to eat you up inside if you don't. Because just finishing it will give you a rush so intense that it's worth the months or years you spent crafting it. Then that $5,000 starts to look a lot better.

Not got a novel idea eating you up inside demanding to be written? Be glad! Writing isn't a career. It's a compulsion, an addiction. It's like being a junkie, except not so expensive, and occasionally someone gives you a few bucks. $5,000? Wow, I call that pretty awesome just for getting a fix.

I believe Mr. Zack is referring to an advance. This is exactly what it sounds like... a sum of money advanced to the writer against future royalties. Once your book has earned back the $5,000, you begin to receive actual royalties on sales. If your book sells well, your total earnings can be substantially more than the advance.

On the other hand, some books never sell enough to earn out the advance, and thus the advance remains the author's only income from the book. Fortunately, you don't have to give it back. Unfortunately, you probably won't get another contract from that publisher. Huge advances might sound good, but if the book never earns out, the writer's career can be toast.

I agree with Sirensix. Write for the love of it. You'll probably write a better book that way, anyway.

sirensix said:

Don't write it for $5,000. I agree, that is depressing. Write it because it's going to eat you up inside if you don't. Because just finishing it will give you a rush so intense that it's worth the months or years you spent crafting it. Then that $5,000 starts to look a lot better.

Not got a novel idea eating you up inside demanding to be written? Be glad! Writing isn't a career. It's a compulsion, an addiction. It's like being a junkie, except not so expensive, and occasionally someone gives you a few bucks. $5,000? Wow, I call that pretty awesome just for getting a fix.

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I like writing, so don't take this the wrong way, but I've sat down at poker tables in Amsterdam with $5,000 sitting in front of me. Gee, I once spent $12,000 in one month and couldn't remember what I bought. I am a college graduate with a career that typically pays 8-20K a month (based on experience and education).

Writing is a great way to relax and blow off steam, but thrill? Not really, I find the whole effort of finding an agent less than enjoyable. I'd rather find a contract that will pay me 100k a year. (I'm a database programmer).

I've (mistakenly thought) to try giving a bigger percentage of the manuscript for representation on the next two or three. But AAR rules says "Nyet" on that idea. I can't offer an agent a bigger percentage because of the rules. I can't offer an agent a reading fee because it's not acceptable. But what everyone fails to realize is that this is a victimless crime. The only real crime is letting work sit around which might be enjoyable reading because I -- the writer isn't prepared to sacrafice his sanity and precious time for $5,000.

Bottom line, no ROI on investment. Gratification? Nah, I get that when I'm sitting at a cafe in Paris, stolling independence square in Kiev, or swimming the med in Spain.

Tot zein!

Jon

Well, to each his own - it's why there are so many professions and other types of human endeavor. And why there are plenty of happily "starving" artists and plenty of miserable rich folks, in addition to miserable poor folk and happy billionaires. The secret to happiness: find what you want to do most, do it, and if you can't find a way to make it pay enough to support you in your chosen lifestyle, get a second job to pay the bills, one that still allows you to do that first thing in your off time. Sounds like you've got money covered, and plenty of pastimes you enjoy, so you're all set! I don't really see the problem.

For my part, I've lived happily on everything from $15,000 to $500,000 a year at different phases of my life, and personally I've found myself at my most serene when I wasn't encumbered by a lot of "stuff" and bills and whatnot. Part of it is that I'm easily overwhelmed, and I just like to keep things simple. So if I never get rich, I'm okay with that. So long as I have enough time to get the stories that are inside me out onto the page, and share them with others who enjoy them, I guess I'm okay with whatever it ends up paying me.

Me, I'll settle for 5,000 any time, and work my way up. I can write four books a year, and on graduated advance rates, it might work out. I'm single, happy, and can afford to live a little (or a lot) spartan. I've recieved less than that amount for my first two books.

What I'm really distressed about is all these damn Poddy publishers out there now, who are offering no advances at all, and above average royalties, but offer limited or no distribution. Most of them cannot get you into any book stores, and they admit it up front. These outfits typically have message boards and are seen in the Horror, Fantasy, and SF genres, although I'm sure there are others. The interent is glutted with these mom and pop so-called publishers. It's getting entirely too difficult to get serious reviews and attention for POD books. The editing of these types of books seems to be marginal, since there are no real employees on the payrolls. Let me make this clear--I'm talking about these fan-based type operations.

So if you want to talk about distressing conditions, check out the the recent flood of Poddy pubs masquerading as real commercial publishing houses.

I'd love to name names, but that would get my azz hung with links back to here.

$ 5000 with guaranteed placed in libraries and book stores? You bet I'll take that over the rest.

Tri

Writing is so enjoyable, granted. But strarving artist doesn't appeal to me. I sacraficed six years of my life to obtain a college education just so I could ensure my future. I couldn't imagine getting all giddy over $5,000 or $40,000 for the amount of work required to write a novel, find an agent, and get published. I treat the art as a hobby which I enjoy -- but not so much that I get frantic when an agent rejects my work or when a short story isn't selected for publication.

I guess starving artist means people who have no other means of a future unless they can sell their work. Sad, just plain sad indeed.

Jon

triceretops said:

Me, I'll settle for 5,000 any time, and work my way up.
<snip>
$ 5000 with guaranteed placed in libraries and book stores? You bet I'll take that over the rest.

Tri

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You betcha! Good money for it would be thrilling, but secondary to getting the 'yes' and then eventually a box of books with your name on the covers delivered to your front door. For people like us, I doubt there's much that could compare to that.

triceretops said:

Me, I'll settle for 5,000 any time, and work my way up. I can write four books a year, and on graduated advance rates, it might work out. I'm single, happy, and can afford to live a little (or a lot) spartan. I've recieved less than that amount for my first two books.

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Not to spoil the soup, but (actually) people such as yourself are the reason (or part of the problem) why advances on royalties are so meager. I take it you sold two novels and received less than $5,000 on advances (not including royalties) and this makes you happy?

Well gee, a hundred thousand programmers from India appear and say they will do my job for 1/2 the market rate. After a while, American companies realize that Indian programmers are cheaper by the dozen (like slop softcopy books) and we can make a few extra bucks.

A few years later, the same American companies begin to complain that the quality of offshore work is subpar. Well slap me silly. Now book publishers are going to say readership is down because the quality of writing is subpar. Well doh!

Whenever someone accepts a stipend for their work it only benefits the owner. I am not about to lower my expectations so my work will fitter away in some secondhand bookstore a year from now.


P.S. What's the word I'm looking for, oh yeah -- Pride. I'd rather never get published than humilate myself for beggar funds.

Jon

All depends on the "manner to which you are accustomed to living." Jon, if you desire a 90210 address, or are likely to feel destressed if you don't pull down 75 gs a year, then obviously, writing is not for you. But I happen to enjoy the thrill of writing and see the money aspect as an added bonus. I'm not in this to play the starving artist, just in it because I happen to be good at it. So the only thing I can think of to do is improve that standing. Writing also serves as a part-time outlet for people who do have jobs. The odds are better than the lottery at least that you'll pull a J.K. Rowling with a breakout novel or non-fic book, and it's not costing me anything more than some part time, electricity, and once in a great while, postage stamps.

You sound like writing is a hobby to you, even though you admit to enjoying it.

Tri

No, they were non--fiction books in the eighties, and earned out three times the advances, with no agent.

It doesn't sound like you want publication anywhere for any amount, because this industry is an embarassment to you and your conception of success.

Tri

triceretops said:

You sound like writing is a hobby to you, even though you admit to enjoying it.Tri

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Bingo! All non-income producing activities that give us pleasure are hobbies. I do enjoy writing (have two completed novels) and have participated in this venue for nearly twenty years. It's the money which has always put me off. Nothing much changes with how much you can make for working so hard -- terribly hours, lots of criticism, and minimal support from family doesn't make writing a profession of choice. I think you need to become a Poe with the mindset that it's an obsession -- like heroin or cocaine -- and as with any addition treat the compulsion as an illusionary thrill for the brief moment you succeed.



But I do understand where you're coming from....

Jon

triceretops said:

It doesn't sound like you want publication anywhere for any amount, because this industry is an embarassment to you and your conception of success.

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How interesting. Did you glean that from my resume or a few messages I posted tonight? Well thanks for the burp of psychobabble -- btw -- I don't have sexual fantasies about my dear mum either...just in case you are wondering.

Cheers, and best of luck on your writing career.

P.S. So let me understand this correctly. After almost twenty years you earned roughly $5,000 from two nonfiction works? So what have you done lately?

Jon

SpookyWriter said:

Not to spoil the soup, but (actually) people such as yourself are the reason (or part of the problem) why advances on royalties are so meager. I take it you sold two novels and received less than $5,000 on advances (not including royalties) and this makes you happy?

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Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but the amount of advance has very little to do with "what an author is willing to accept." It's a matter of market forces.

It's a common staple that only 1 in 5 books make make the publisher money and 2 in 5 will break even.

This has nothing to do with the publisher and everything to do with the buying public.

The publisher/editor tries to gauge the marketability of your story and the probablitlity of its success against the costs of printing. marketing and distributing the book and then offers an advance accordingly.

It is exactly what it says: An ADVANCE.

An advance against future sales. If people like your book and it sells, it doesn't matter if you received 1 dollar or $5,000 in advance - you will make money. It doesn't mean that's what you're paid for the book. Only the buying public decides that.

And remember, $5000 is the industry average advance for a first time genre novel and only 1 in 5 generate enough sales to make a profit and 2 out of 5 earn their advance!! That isn't the publishers taking advantage of needy authors but the buying public deciding who makes the money and who doesn't.

That's why there's all kinds of finagling to influence the public (Frey, scandal, controversy etc.) because they are the ones who say how much an author makes on their book - not the publisher.

You want to make money on your writing investment Spookywriter?

Write a damn good book that people will want to read.

There's no begging involved.

You're better off getting a $5000 and earn out, then getting $50,000 and having a poor sell-through.

brokenfingers said:

You want to make money on your writing investment Spookywriter? Write a damn good book that people will want to read.

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Such is the problem with a subjective marketplace. I finished two novels, after lots of editing and so forth, but decided to focus on my programming career and I am shelving them for now. I am going to start book III in April, but this will also remain dusted and unread for many years. I might reconsider searching for an agent and going through the tribulations of publishing in a few years, but for now I need to concentrate on saving for retirement.

I'm not in any rush to become a quasi-famous writer.

Cheers,

Jon

I couldn't imagine getting all giddy over $5,000 or $40,000 for the amount of work required to write a novel, find an agent, and get published. I treat the art as a hobby which I enjoy -- but not so much that I get frantic when an agent rejects my work or when a short story isn't selected for publication.

Just that passage right there, Jon, smacks of your displeasure. You're telling me that you would refuse $40,000 as an advance? How long does it take you to write a book? You were talking about slaving with a lot of toil, time and energy over such a project (not in those exact words), and that you found it not worth the effort for those amounts. That's your testimony, not mine.

I wrote part time from 1988 to 1990 and you can hit my profile and see those credits. Then I quit completely up until the begining of 2005. So I've only been back in the game for one year. During that year: Wrote and polished a non-fiction book on paleontology, wrote and polished two sci-fi novels, and I'm halfway through a urban fantasy. Landed an agent 22-days ago that's going to handle all of those. So, 3 1/2 books in one years time. Total novels written is around 10, with most of those in the past 1988--1990 time frame.

It takes me now two months to write 400-pages and two weeks to prep it. Sorry, that's is fast as I can go.

(I don't understand the "frantic" comment about rejections. I've never had that emotion about rejections)

And you?

Tri