Breaking storytelling rules?

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reph

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I don't usually look at romance novels. Today my husband and I got to the theater early and had 20 minutes before the movie started. We went to browse in a drugstore, where I picked up three Harlequins to see how they were written. The books were from different lines. One was a Blaze, containing three novellas. One was a Silhouette, and I don't remember the line for the third.

I read the opening pages of each book. I've followed posts on the Novel Writing forum, though I don't write novels. If the advice there about how to present a character and what to do in Chapter One is any good, all three books fall seriously short. Two began by describing their female characters, doing nothing in particular except thinking. In one of them, this went on for several pages of infodump and backstory. There were lines like "She smoothed her blond chignon" even though the POV was the woman's and she had no reason at that moment to think about blondness. (We've covered that more than once on Novels.) The opening of the third was a little livelier: the woman was driving her daughter to school. Still, it was infodumpy, slipping background information irrelevantly into the odd sentence, and the first line was dialogue, without a good reason.

Now, I'm under the impression that the "rules" exist because you lose your reader if you violate them. For example, the first sentence needs a hook so the reader will proceed to the second sentence. Infodump pulls the reader out of the story. And so on. But these authors got published and paid despite writing what the experts would call poor openings. Harlequin's books are popular, so apparently the readers don't mind. What gives? What are the standards, really?

On looking at these books, I thought, geez, I could do better than that if I only had a plot in mind.
 

kristie911

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I don't know...I sometimes think the same things when I pick up a book. I read Harlequin from time-to-time but when I do, it's because I want something easy to read. I hope I don't offend anyone here by saying this but I call it mindless reading. I mean they aren't exactly Crime and Punishment or Moby Dick. And while I know they're aren't mindless writing it seems to me (my experience) readers that read these books tend to only read these books. I have an aunt that has gotten Harlequin books every month for the last two decades! But she's never read another book besides those. If I read more than a handful of them at a time, I feel like my brain is turning to mush.

Okay, I'm starting to ramble a bit and not getting to the point. Anyway, it just seems to me that these books are more forgiving? maybe that's not the right word. They have their own set of rules...maybe it's the readers that are more forgiving than readers of more mainstream books. I don't have an answer, I guess, but I'm sure someone will.

And I really hope that didn't come off as offensive to anyone that writes for Harlequin...it wasn't meant to be at all!
 

henriette

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i must admit i have a healthy respect for writers that can crank out numerous books that follow such stringent rules with the same ending over and over.

but i do wish that the 'romance' genre would ease up on the strict "happily ever after" policy and start injecting new life or tragedy into their stories. i mean, if one has read harlequins for 20 years, wouldn't one want to be surprised by the ending just ONCE?
 

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henriette said:
i must admit i have a healthy respect for writers that can crank out numerous books that follow such stringent rules with the same ending over and over.

but i do wish that the 'romance' genre would ease up on the strict "happily ever after" policy and start injecting new life or tragedy into their stories. i mean, if one has read harlequins for 20 years, wouldn't one want to be surprised by the ending just ONCE?

No. Absolutely not. The comfort of a true romance novel is that is guarantees a happy ending. I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion here before. There are love stories out there with tragic endings. Those are not romances. The romance readers would get seriously ticked off if I killed off my heroine in the last pages of the book. It's like having a mystery novel where they never solve the mystery. The readers would be furious and would never buy that author's books again.

Try to imagine Lord of the RIngs where the bad guys, the forces of darkness, win. The Ring never gets thrown into the pit, and evil triumphs. That would tick off readers, who expect in stories such as that, that good, that our protagonists, will triumph.

As a genre romance writer, I have an obligation to my readers to fulfill their expectations.

There can be tragedy along the way (I have a book that featured a heroine grieving over her child's death) but the ending must be upbeat and satisfying to the reader. (If it's really a romance.)

That said, there are many avenues today that are exploring "non-traditional" endings. Harlequin has started several new lines that are different - not the complete focus on the romance. More women's fictiony instead of romance. For example, the new Next line, which features stories about the "Next" thing in a woman's life - not a romance.

As to the original post regarding "proper" craft rules being broken all over the place, I can explain some of that. For one, craft rules are not set in stone like some writers would have you believe. Two, it depends on who wrote the book. Authors who have been around since the 80's, or even early 90's are going to write differently than the new kids. The craft standards have changed since they started, and often they don't change as quickly as the new kids do. Especially if they have a sizable following already - why should they? They've got their fans, they sell their books, and everyone is happy. :)

There also seems to be a learning curve as you aquire craft skills. First they tend to get over-applied. (NEVER, ever tell anything! NEVER, ever name an emotion.) Then you later learn that sometimes it's perfectly acceptable, indeed, works better for the story, for you do XYZ. When you work with editors, that becomes even more apparent.

I think this accounts for the phenomenon in romance contests that shows that in general, published authors tend to score entries higher than unpublished judges. The published authors have learned more about the flexibility of the "rules." Some (SOME! Not pointing any fingers here!) of the unpublished writers haven't learned that yet, and demand blood for every time a "rule" is broken, without taking into account whether or not it works for the story.

Craft rules must be learned, mastered, and then applied in ways that serve the story. It's all about the story. (At least, it is IMHO.)

Susan G.
 

Susan Gable

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I do agree that the main purpose of an opening is to hook, to intrigue the reader.

That said, the opening to my third book is this:

Lexie Jacobs had never felt more afraid or alone in her life.

That said a lot, since the two sensations had become near-constant companions in the past few months.


So, my opening is TELLING. But, I felt it was intriguing. Would make a reader wonder what's going with her. Why is she alone and afraid? Why is it worse right now? Why have the past few months been bad?

Sometimes I open with dialogue. I've heard writers debate (on these boards, even) if you should ever open with a piece of dialogue. Again, if it pulls the reader in, makes them wonder what's going on, or gives a good sense of conflict, then yes, why not open with dialogue?

Opening of my last book:

"Erie sucks."

(And, lol, I wasn't sure my editor was going to let me "get away with" that one, but she did. Instantly you know someone isn't happy. It goes right into showing the conflict between my hero and his teenage daughter.)

The craft "rules" are our tools. We use them. They're necessary. But there are times to break the "rules." :)

Serve the story. Serve the characters. Use the tools to do so.

Susan G.
 

henriette

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ok, so what about this scenario:

boy meets girl. boy loves girl. boy loses girl. boy gets girl back.

boy and girl get married in fantastic lavish wedding, go on honeymoon, live happily for about a year.

THEN:

boy and girl die in a car crash (together, instantaneously, no suffering) but leave behind a legacy of their love- a child, a foundation, a memorial which in turn brings together two new lovers.

the romance between the two main protagonists ends HEA, but the book does not, although the promise of a new romance gives the reader a slightly uplifting ending.

would this be acceptable? i'm not trying to be a pain in the *** here, but i'm curious. :)

ETA: ooo censorship! whee! the word i was using is a synonym to "donkey" hehehe...
 

Susan Gable

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Oh, yes, and also it sound more like what you're describing is what I'd call "women's fiction" - bigger, broader stories that may not have the traditional HEA, may not even actually focus on the romance in the woman's life, though that could be part of the story.

Susan G.
 

Irysangel

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henriette said:
i must admit i have a healthy respect for writers that can crank out numerous books that follow such stringent rules with the same ending over and over.

but i do wish that the 'romance' genre would ease up on the strict "happily ever after" policy and start injecting new life or tragedy into their stories. i mean, if one has read harlequins for 20 years, wouldn't one want to be surprised by the ending just ONCE?


Oh ack, heck no. If you put tragedy at the end of my otherwise happy romance, I'm sending you hate mail, and I'm broadcasting to all my friends on the 'net about how ripped off I am by your novel. ;)

Seriously -- you do not mess with the HEA.

Prime example? I love Disney movies. I saw Pocahontas and was angry for WEEKS afterwards because it wasn't a typical HEA. Romances are light, fun, happy reading. If I want death or tragedy I'll read THE LOVELY BONES.

:)
 

kristie911

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henriette said:
i mean, if one has read harlequins for 20 years, wouldn't one want to be surprised by the ending just ONCE?

Never! That's why I pick up a Harlequin...I know how it's going to end. Maybe I've just read a book that left me reeling (and crying) at the end or was just a "hard to get through" book and I want something light, something I know will end well. And something I don't have to keep track of a million loose ends that tie up in a huge conspiracy theory at the end (which make my head hurt!).

If I picked up a Harlequin and no one had sex and there was no HEA...I'd be pissed!
 

Susan Gable

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kristie911 said:
Never! That's why I pick up a Harlequin...I know how it's going to end. Maybe I've just read a book that left me reeling (and crying) at the end or was just a "hard to get through" book and I want something light, something I know will end well. And something I don't have to keep track of a million loose ends that tie up in a huge conspiracy theory at the end (which make my head hurt!).

If I picked up a Harlequin and no one had sex and there was no HEA...I'd be pissed!

Thank you. That makes my point about meeting my readers' expectations quite nicely. :) And if you were pissed, I'm pretty certain you wouldn't pick up another book that author, right?

(Although do watch which HQ lines you pick up - not all of them have sex. <G> And actually, as I've been pointing out, some of the newer Harlequin lines don't have the traditional HEA. So know what you're picking up off the shelf. Bombshells don't have as much romance in them. Next doesn't.)

Susan G.
 

reph

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Susan Gable said:
For one, craft rules are not set in stone like some writers would have you believe. Two, it depends on who wrote the book. Authors who have been around since the 80's, or even early 90's are going to write differently than the new kids.
That explains something, but I still wonder what the appeal to readers is. The openings of those three books just looked amateurish to me – the way you'd begin a story if you weren't trying to make it interesting. One of them must have had ten pages of background information about the character and her situation. If I'd been reading for enjoyment, I would have felt I was cramming for a test.
 

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Susan's reply was very thoughtful and full of details. Still, I don't think it answered the original poster's question. She asked why *romances* are able to break these rules. But both of the arguments that Susan puts forth - that writers who've been around for a long time will have an older style but already have a fan base, and that experienced writers know when to break the craft rules - would surely apply to other genres as well? Most if not all genres include experienced writers and writers who have been around for a long time (often but perhaps not always the same thing).

I write YA and I am more familiar with that genre (although I do read romance) and I can tell you that there ARE writers still publishing in YA who got their start a long time ago (Joan Lowery Nixon, for example) who still publish books even though their style is very different from most of what's being acquired now. However, it's style that's different, not craft - these authors still start their books with action, weave backstory into the story and avoid info dumps, go sparingly on the adverbs etc. For the most part, even series books in YA follow the rules of craft. So the question remains: why is romance different?

I don't have a difinitive answer for that, but it seems to me there are (at least) three possibilities:

1) They're not different, and every genre publishes a certain number of books whose authors don't adhere to craft. While I don't think this is true for YA, I certainly don't read every single YA book published, so I don't know for sure.

2) Because romance has such a large share of the market (more than 50%, I believe), the great need for romance writers means that in some cases, publishers are required to go with some writers who are not as experienced in craft. The argument would go something like: If 500 romances are published every year, but only 50 thrillers, and the same number of people write romances and thrillers, then obviously the thriller market would be able to be more exclusive. I don't have the numbers to back this up, so it's just a possibility.

3) There's something specific to the romance genre that requires a different kind of craft. If this is true, I can't imagine what it is - perhaps I don't read enough romance, and I certainly don't read it as carefully as I read YA, so I will have to leave the analysis up to someone else. Quite honestly, I don't think this is the answer, because there are many, many romance writers who do adhere to the rules of craft, so romance certainly doesn't *require* a different craft. But it's possible that it allows for it more than other genres?

These are just suggestions, and I'm very willing to consider other possibilities - I do think, however, that any possibilities have to take into account the original poster's actual question - why is romance different? - even if it's just to say that the poster is wrong, and romance isn't different, and here are the reasons why I think that.
 

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Katiba said:
However, it's style that's different, not craft - these authors still start their books with action, weave backstory into the story and avoid info dumps, go sparingly on the adverbs etc. For the most part, even series books in YA follow the rules of craft. So the question remains: why is romance different?

I that any possibilities have to take into account the original poster's actual question - why is romance different? - even if it's just to say that the poster is wrong, and romance isn't different, and here are the reasons why I think that.

Reph's question related to the fact that Harlequin books are massively popular and so the readers didn't seem to mind the craft flaws she saw in the samples she picked up. But I'll get back to Reph's question later. Let's start with your premise in this post.

All YA's start with great usage of craft? They start with action, weave backstory in small bites, avoid the information dump? Even the bigwig authors?

Okay, I have some bigwig YA's sitting on my shelf. Let's take a peek at the openings of some of my favorites:

Maniac Magee was not born in a dump. He was born in a house, a pretty ordinary house, right across the river from here, in Bridgeport. And he had regular parents, a mother and a father.

But not for long.

One day his partens left him with a sitter and took the P&W high-speed trolley into the city. On the way back home, they were on board when the P&W had its famous crash, when the motorman was drunk and took the high trestle over the Schuykill River at sixty miles an hour, and the whole kaboodle took a swan dive into the water.

And just like that, Maniac was an orphan. He was three years old.

Okay, so that looks like a big start with backstory to me. Granted, this isn't a brand new book. Maniac Magee by Jerry Spinelli (a fabulous book, btw!) has a 1990 copyright.

Okay, so let's look at something a little more recent. Let's look at something with a 2000 copyright date, another fantastic story by a very talented writer. Holes by Louis Sachar:

There is no lake at Camp Green Lake. There once was a very large lake here, the largest lake in Texas. That was over a hundred years ago. Now it it just a dry, flat wasteland.

There used to be a town of Green Lake as well. The town shriveled and dried up along with the lake, and the people who lived there.

During the summer the daytime temperature hovers around ninety-five degrees in the shade -- if you can find any shade. There's not much shade in a big dry lake.

The only trees are two old oaks on the eastern edfe of the "lake." A hammock is stretched between the two trees, and a log cabin stands behind that.

The campers are forbidden to lie in the hammock. It belongs to the Warden. The warden owns the shade.

Out on the lake, rattlesnakes and scorpions find shade under rocks and in the holes dug by the campers.

Where's the action there? I don't see any action. That's all setting, and setting backstory. Look at all the "to be" verbs - that's another thing that many writers get all upset about. "Try to limit your passive verbs" writers are often told, with good reason. (Please note that passive verbs are NOT the same thing as passive sentence construction, and many times people confuse the two.) There's no character POV here. It's a narrator. There's no showing, only TELLING.

So, does that example meet "the standards" for "perfect craft?" If you read that without knowing it's a great book, without knowing anything else about the story, would it grab you? How would you judge the writer based on that beginning? If given that piece to critique, what would you tell the writer? <G> What would you have told Jerry Spinelli about the Maniac McGee opening if you were critting it?

What's my point? My point is that I don't know how anyone can say that one genre has worse craft than any other genre. There are romance novels (unfortunately some of them written by some "bigiwgs" who've been around a long time and sell many, many copies) that make me just want to throw the damn book at a wall. That make me cringe with their slaughter of craft. On the other hand, there are others (including some by "bigwigs" who sell millions and millions of copies) that sweep me away in the characters and story, who use craft very well so that I never stumble in my reading of their tale.

Because there is such a high demand for romance novels does NOT "excuse" poor craft. Trust me when I tell you that it's not easy to sell a romance novel to a big publisher. They get ridiculous numbers of submissions each year to fill the slots they have. And don't forget that the competition for those slots is first among their current stable of authors, then the unpubs.

Sometimes crap happens. Sometimes writers produce books under very tight deadlines and huge amounts of personal problems in their lives. So not every book may be the very best they can produce - it may simply be the best they can produce at that time, under those pressures. Maybe their mother died. Maybe their husband walked out on them. Maybe they're trying their best to deal with issues with their kid while writing this book.

Do you know what the turnaround time can be for substantial story revisions? Two weeks. That's the average turnaround time. And I'm not talking for writers to tweak - I'm talking about when the editor has some substantial issues with the plot and wants a number of plot areas addressed - things that require scraping big chunks of the story and rewriting from scratch. Sometimes that happens and the author also has a dayjob that she has to attend to during the day, and then try to cram that rewriting in at night and get it back to her editor on time.

That's the reality of this business. :Shrug: You learn to roll with the punches and produce the best you can at the moment. I'm very concerned with my quality over quantity. But quantity is what helps you build a name, helps you pay the bills. (Although I dare say that quantity without quality isn't going to matter for very long. :) )

Reph wanted to know if readers care as much as we do. She said:
Harlequin's books are popular, so apparently the readers don't mind. What gives? What are the standards, really?

The readers don't know the tiny details that we do as writers. Craft matters to them only to the point that anything that makes them stumble in the reading, or anything that pulls from the fictional reality (<G>) is NOT a good thing. Every reader brings their own POV to the story. Look at it this way -- I love CSI. I watch it almost every week. But someone who actually works in law enforcement, or a criminal lab might HATE the show because of all the "flaws" that they spot in the storylines and lab work. That's how it is with us writers as readers. We've got too much information. It makes us really picky readers. We can't shut off the internal editor long enough to just enjoy. I find myself doing it even with movies. "Who wrote this and who let them get away with writing this? That's crap dialogue." <G>

Picking things apart becomes second nature for us. Which sometimes makes it darn hard to just sit back and enjoy something.

Susan G. - sorry to be so long-winded this morning. :)
 

Katiba

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My main point was simply that your original answers did not address the question: why romance? I thought I made it clear in my post that I was not saying that the answer to this question is not that there are more slots, but simply that this *kind* of answer responds to the question. In fact, I specifically said I don't have the numbers to make that kind of argument. "It's not only romance" is a perfectly valid answer to the question. However, to me, your original answers did not answer the question as it was asked.

And to be quite clear, I was in *no* way trying to put romance writers or category writers down. In fact, I tried to write category a few years ago, in the mistaken belief that it would be easier to break in there. I had several requests for manuscripts but all were rejected. It was only when I realized that I should be writing YA that I was able to land an agent. So I certainly wasn't trying to say that it's easier to write romance, since I, for one, have been more successful writing in a different field.

A
 

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Katiba said:
However, to me, your original answers did not answer the question as it was asked.

Well, I didn't understand that Reph was asking why romance. I thought she was looking for a more comprehensive explanation of why some stuff that we think is sloppy craft gets published. Reph, sorry if I didn't answer your question clearly the first time. :(

So, I'm glad my new answer was clearer - IMHO, it's not JUST romance. <G> I think you can find those sorts of "issues" in published books across the board.

And Katiba, I didn't think you were insulting romance writers. :) (Belive me, you'll be able to tell when I'm feeling insulted. LOL!) I'm just sharing some of my thoughts on a variety of issues Reph's question raised. I wasn't trying to insult Spinelli or Sacher, either. I think their stories are wonderful. (For completely crazy reading, try Sacher's Sideways Stories from Wayside School. I used that one with my fourth graders, and we had great fun working though the math problems from the companion book, too.) Using their samples, I was just pointing out that most of us would have probably offered quite a lot of "advice" had we been asked to critique those pieces. :)

So, my basic answer stands. It's not just romance. <G> And all my other "answers" stand, too - there are many reasons why what we perceive as sloppy craft gets published. :)


Susan G.
 

Cathy C

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Boy, go away for a few hours and see what happens over here... ;)


I agree with Susan, and with Katiba, AND with reph. I've read some incredible dreck in most every genre -- stuff that makes me wonder who was sleeping with who to get the book to see the light of day. But just as I'm fixing to toss it into the trash, I'll find someone somewhere on the web or in person who just LOVED the book! "Oh my god! It was wonderful, incredibly written, mezmerizing!" To which I'll either :faint: or :Wha: or :crazy: or :Soapbox:

In other words, it's all a matter of taste, and I'll just bet that whatever book reph picked up is probably dogeared from overreading on someone's "keep it forever" shelf.

I love books that some find dreck, and detest other things that people consider classics, so I have no room to throw stones. I know that some find my storylines too dark to be romance, and some find it too romance-y, and others love them just the way they are.

But, as Susan says -- it's not just romance. Readers of romance aren't somehow less concerned with quality merely BECAUSE they read romances. That's too broad of a brush. A good book is a good book is a good book. But what's "good" is subjective.

Just my .02!
 

henriette

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i guess it all comes down to one simple thing; the romance reader wants it a certain way and that is that. she (i am assuming here, but am confident that at least 95% of romance readers are women, the other 5% metro or gay men lol) wants fantasy. she wants a book that does not delve into the realities of the world around us- death, taxes, divorce, unrequited passion. she wants an escape from her own HEA that didn't EA so well...or she wants to live vicariously through someone else...

just wanted to note that when i mentioned straying from the standard HEA, i did not mean ending the book with a puppy massacre and the lovers being eaten by bears. it just seems to me that HEA is a very black and white ending, where there are so many shades of grey that aren't necessarily traumatic but might be bittersweet, or hopeful about the future that could be just as satisfying- perhaps even more so because there would be a small element of surprise. not so much so that the reader is turned off, but she is inspired and intrigued by the slight change from the average harlequin...
 

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I just picked up a Tom Clancy novel the other day, having never read his books before. I was not impressed. I only read the first 50 pages and was bored to death. Why? Because it was all backstory and detailed information. In other words, too much tell and not enough action. There was nothing that pulled me in. My point is, agreeing with others here, its not just romance.
 

reph

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I appreciate the various posters' insights addressing aspects of my question. There's too much up there to respond to, so I'll start by arbitrarily picking on Cathy:
Cathy C said:
In other words, it's all a matter of taste, and I'll just bet that whatever book reph picked up is probably dogeared from overreading on someone's "keep it forever" shelf.
No, I looked at the opening pages of three new books in a store. Two of them had the same fault, long infodump/backstory, tell instead of show. The third had a milder version: same problems, but more subtle. My concern isn't that rules are sacred; it's that those particular rules, I thought, tell writers what they have to do to make a story hold the reader's attention.

I don't expect most readers to balk if you make a mistake with the subjunctive. I do expect them to balk if you bore them or if you describe characters with clichés (long legs, green eyes [her], broad shoulders, white teeth [him]) and violate POV so much that the characters don't come alive. But these novels are very popular.

Maybe those three books were a fluke, and most novels in the genre do a better job of telling a story. To find out, I poked around at Harlequin's site. Harlequin lets you read excerpts from new books before Adding them to Cart. Each excerpt looks like a complete first chapter. I read several. Most had the same faults as the three in the store.

I don't maintain that other genres are better written. The question is, if story and character trump everything, why do I find basic, major shortcomings in story telling and character presentation in books that sell so many copies?

Not only that, but this genre is meant for light reading. People use romance novels to relax, to be entertained. They want something simple and pleasant after, perhaps, a hard day at work. I'd therefore expect that romances would have to be engaging without requiring much cognitive effort. The reader should be able to dive right into the story and stay there until it ends. If this paragraph contains any false premises, will someone please identify them for me?
 

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But I think that is modern HQ lines like Blaze the reader actually does want to start of with the heroine bored at work, buying shoes or commuting. The romance is a tranformative experience for most romance heorines and it is important to establish need she had for Mr Talldark'nhandsome who will almost always appear near the end of chapter one or mid Chapter 2... I do think soem of the blah blah blah introspection gets a little out of hand some times but it is a feature of the genre especially for contemporary short novels--to some extent I blame chicklit for the sheer amount fo 'thinking' in some of these books now-days ;)
 

Cathy C

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by reph: Not only that, but this genre is meant for light reading. People use romance novels to relax, to be entertained. They want something simple and pleasant after, perhaps, a hard day at work. I'd therefore expect that romances would have to be engaging without requiring much cognitive effort. The reader should be able to dive right into the story and stay there until it ends. If this paragraph contains any false premises, will someone please identify them for me?


Happy to, since most of the premises are false. Romance, as a GENRE, is no more meant for light reading than any other genre. Some of the category H/S books are single plot arcs, rather than double or multiple plot arcs that you might find in a single title romance. They are shorter, both to encourage readers to purchase multiple books when buying, and to allow a more convenient single sitting read, if the reader is so inclined. But to say that they don't "require much cognitive effort" is another broad brush that is inaccurate.

I think something I'm noticing in your posts is that you've chosen one "correct" method of writing and are trying to apply it across the board to all books. But different editors like different things, just as different readers do. Why do you feel it is wrong to have a lot of backstory at the beginning? Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell has almost five chapters of initial backstory. It's a best seller. The Ladies' No. 1 Detective Agency, another best seller, has one-dimensional characters and tells, rather than shows in every single "case." While I found both of these books to be absolute dreck, and happily donated them to the long waiting list at the library, it's quite obvious from their sales figures that the rest of the world did NOT consider them dreck.

I think you're finding basic, major shortcomings in books that don't follow the rules that you've learned. But those aren't the only rules that exist. While I happen to agree with you that it SHOULD be basic storytelling, the fact is that it's NOT basic. Thankfully so. It means there ARE NO RULES, so long as there's a willing publisher out there who likes a particular method of writing. It's why so many publishers tell aspiring authors, "Read our books to see what we like." Obviously, certain lines at H/S LIKE backstory dumps and plot-heavy, versus character-heavy, stories. Cool. Nice to know.

by Henriette: i guess it all comes down to one simple thing; the romance reader wants it a certain way and that is that. she (i am assuming here, but am confident that at least 95% of romance readers are women, the other 5% metro or gay men lol) wants fantasy. she wants a book that does not delve into the realities of the world around us- death, taxes, divorce, unrequited passion. she wants an escape from her own HEA that didn't EA so well...or she wants to live vicariously through someone else...

Yes, romance readers want it a certain way. Just like mystery readers do. Go ahead -- try to write a mystery WITHOUT solving the case at the end. After all, that's what happens in more than half of the cases that hit the desks at the police station. NOT solving the case is much more reality-based than finding perfect justice at the end of 300 pages. What I think you're failing to grasp is that ANY book is like a television show. Each show must wrap up certain details in order to stay on the air. Sure, you can have long-running threads that bounce up and down, but EVERY SINGLE EPISODE, you must deal with the situation at hand. Books are the same. Romances sell ROMANCE. The romance must be wrapped up. That's the goal of the book. A mystery sells the solution OF the mystery; thrillers have to save the world; etc., etc. To a romance, an HEA is as much a part of the requirement to "stay on the air" as freeing the defendant at the end of a Perry Mason show. It's just the way it is. Yes, it's cliched, but it's what lovers of the genre WANT. There's nothing wrong with it. It just is.


Feel free to disagree, though. That's the point of discussing things. Just remember to keep things polite. We're discussing CONCEPTS here, not picking on each other. :)
 
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reph

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Cathy C said:
Romance, as a GENRE, is no more meant for light reading than any other genre....to say that they don't "require much cognitive effort" is another broad brush that is inaccurate.
I'm seeing contradictory statements and wondering which ones to believe. kristie911 posted: "something easy to read. I hope I don't offend anyone here by saying this but I call it mindless reading." henriette mentioned escapism: the story should be pleasant, a diversion from the troubles of real life.

I have the impression that readers turn to romances for the same kind of reason they might turn to humor. This is not a putdown of either genre.

Another source of confusion: Earlier this year, I was hired to proofread a novel probably best described as women's fiction, with a plot that included romance but wasn't limited to that. It had big problems of the kind discussed on the Novel Writing forum, especially an overbalance of tell against show. Worse, I got halfway through without knowing who the main characters were. I was thinking how much money the publisher would lose if publishing the book was the mistake I feared it would be. Because I don't know the genre, I queried at this forum, asking whether such a book would sell. Some of the pros here confirmed that it wouldn't. They said readers won't accept such things. Now the answer is the opposite.

I think something I'm noticing in your posts is that you've chosen one "correct" method of writing and are trying to apply it across the board to all books. But different editors like different things, just as different readers do. Why do you feel it is wrong to have a lot of backstory at the beginning?
Well, in the samples that occasioned my first post, it looked awkward. Information was dropped on the page as if the authors had written up their preparatory notes about the character's history and used them in the manuscript. It looked like what many writers do who are just starting out. On other AW forums where people post samples, some of them seem to approach writing a story as if it were like having a dollhouse or a model train set. This is the place (detailed description of made-up planet), these are the people (detailed description of alien races), now I'll start moving them around.

I felt I was studying facts, not watching a movie. Of course, a book isn't a movie, but I didn't find those pages engaging.
 

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Reph, I'd like to hear your comments on the pieces I posted from those very successful YA books. How do you feel about the Maniac Magee opening? The Holes opening?

Do those meet your expectations? Follow the craft rules as you think they should?

Curious minds want to know. :)

Susan G.
 

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reph said:
I'm seeing contradictory statements and wondering which ones to believe.

Yes. :) That's the answer. Yes. To both.

kristie911 posted: "something easy to read. I hope I don't offend anyone here by saying this but I call it mindless reading."

Reph, do you know how Kristie defines "easy to read?" I'm willing to bet that she doesn't define it in the same way that you do. Why? Because like everything else when it comes to writing, it's SUBJECTIVE.

I'm also willing to bet that none of us here would define "mindless reading" in the same way.

henriette mentioned escapism: the story should be pleasant, a diversion from the troubles of real life.

Uhhhh, henriette wasn't happy with the genre, so I think there was some sarcasm there. I think the purpose of most fiction is escapism, a diversion from real life. Star Wars is certainly escapism. Fantasy novels are escapism. Again, this is not a feature that's limited to romance.

And again, how do you define "pleasant?" I've written romance novels that dealt with the loss of a child, raising a child who's had a heart transplant, and dealing with a pregnant teenage daughter. I've written about a surrogate mother who ran away while the baby was still in-utero, and who didn't want to surrender the child when the father found them. That sounds like "real life" to me. Doesn't sound particularly pleasant. But my books say ROMANCE on them, and I have many satisfied readers, so I guess that they weren't seeking mindless drivel that was total fluff when they picked up my book to read it. What do you think?

Another source of confusion: Earlier this year, I was hired to proofread a novel probably best described as women's fiction, with a plot that included romance but wasn't limited to that. It had big problems of the kind discussed on the Novel Writing forum, especially an overbalance of tell against show. Worse, I got halfway through without knowing who the main characters were. I was thinking how much money the publisher would lose if publishing the book was the mistake I feared it would be. Because I don't know the genre, I queried at this forum, asking whether such a book would sell. Some of the pros here confirmed that it wouldn't. They said readers won't accept such things. Now the answer is the opposite.

Reph, when we offered advice on that ms, we only had what you were telling us to go by. It's SUBJECTIVE! That's what Cathy was saying in her post. What you consider to be too much telling might be what some editor considers to be just enough. This is why when something is entered in a contest, it can happen that an entry receives one really high score, and one really low score. Because readers are looking at it differently. This is what I've tried to say in many different ways in this thread today, and honestly, I'm starting to feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. :Headbang:

What part of subjective is so hard to understand? What part of "the rules are not set in stone and are subject to interpretation" is unclear?

This is part of the reason why this is a CRAFT, and why it takes time to master it. (If we ever truly master it.) This stuff isn't black and white, it's many shades and shadows. Nuances.

Susan G.
 

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by reph: Earlier this year, I was hired to proofread a novel probably best described as women's fiction, with a plot that included romance but wasn't limited to that.


This must have been before I arrived here. I've only been a member about half a year. But I probably would have given the same advice that you received.

See, the problem is that ALL of us who are published think we're doing it right -- whatever way we're doing it. After all, we got published. But I write single title for Tor. Could I get those same books that are selling at high mid-list numbers for Tor published by H/S? No -- hell no! No way would Harlequin pick up a "romance" in male POV, when the male is a Mafia hitman who also happens to be a werewolf. We break lots of rules in our book, because we didn't know there WERE any rules. We just tried to write a good book. Some people like it. Some don't. For EXACTLY the same reasons, FWIW.

I doubt seriously that even with the numbers we have presently, we could get a book purchased by H/S or Dorchester or Steeple Hill or any number of others. But maybe Del Ray, Bantam or Pocket, or some others would have us. Don't know. Every publisher has a "style" that they put out, and that style defines the publisher! This is critical information for every genre. Does the reader CARE who puts out a book? Nah. They seldom look at the spine or on the fly leaf to see which publisher put out a book. Would a reader CARE whether Nora Roberts was published with Jove or Avon or Pocket or Warner? Nope. They probably don't know right this minute which one NR's latest is with. But there IS some flow-over to the publisher, at a very, very subconscious level. H/S has made a name of category romance. The "category", whether it's Blaze or Bombshell or Regency, has a certain "feel" that is like a McDonald's hamburger. Whether you stop in a McDonald's in New York, or L.A., or Tokyo or London, you know you'll get the EXACT SAME BURGER. Publishers WANT that name recognition. H/S has achieved it. Whether right or wrong -- they have the readers. Even with readership way down, they still own a large chunk of the market.

So yeah, you can buy a burger at Wendy's, or at Good Times or Burger King, but the REAL owner of the market will always be McDonald's. Because they've figured out what people want. People WANT consistency, along with selection, along with uniqueness. All of which are inconsistent with each other. Tough thing to sell.

There will always be people that write "wrong" (as I define the term) and somehow, inexplicably to me, get published. But I know that I'm right for what I write. And Susan's right for what she writes, even if it's completely opposite of what I do. And for those who are still trying to get published, all they can do is either emulate those who came before, or try something totally new and hope for the best.

It's all any of us can do... :Shrug:
 
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