Gun shy after being burned by other writers...

Christyp · Oct 7, 2011

When I found WD, and AW I was ecstatic. I knew absolutely nothing about the publishing world (I actually googled, "how to publish a novel"). A couple of people, literally two, quickly came to my aid, declaring their undying friendship. Well, to make a loooonnnng story short...we're no longer friends.

My husband said all art is subjective, as is the people who create it. I guess I was naive and believed we would all be cheer leaders for eachother, and hold hands when someone was feeling like jumping from the top of the Eifel tower. Now, I'm extremely gun shy, and haven't joined another crit group for fear of a repeat perfermance.

Please tell me I'm not the only paranoid freak out there!

Dark River · Oct 7, 2011

OMG-I so understand! I left one group because so much of it was off topic and I wanted to talk about writing and not pets or children or menopause... I left another group because when I used terms like story arc, character profiles, queries, and POV, their eyes would glaze over. And they asked me to leave because they looked at writing as more of a hobby.
And do you get the idiotic writer comments and questions?
I've been meaning to write a novel-how hard can it be? I'm writing a book-it's all about me and my fascinating life as a (waitress, funeral director, take your pick...) Don't you just hire the agent you want? So, if you get published, how long before you earn your first million? I've got so many ideas for a book! What if I tell you my ideas and you can write it...(I have an imagination, but thanks.)
It sounds like you have been allowing wanna be's to get too close. Jealousy is alive and well in our profession and I've known people who would kill for talent.
So, no, hon, you are not the only paranoid freak out there. Can we start a club? You can be the president and I'll take donations at the door.

blacbird · Oct 7, 2011

Are you expecting everyone to gush lovingly over your work? If so, you're in for a hard time anywhere in this universe.

caw

Filigree · Oct 7, 2011

I just don;t have the time to join a group and wait for critiques. Things are moving pretty fast right now, and I'm lucky to have some good betas.

D.M.Drake · Oct 7, 2011

Trolls are everywhere, the way I see it is everyone who has nothing better to do than talk down on you literally has nothing better to do. Laugh it off, shrug it off and try to remember 99% of people DO NOT have your best interests at heart and in a competitive world making some one lose faith in them selves and quit is a wonderful way to boost your chances.

I admit, I am jaded. I am also painfully honest. Its a flaw, it has served me well though.

Good luck, I hope you find what you need here, but remember, everyone has a reason for everything they do. Always consider the source.

~Drake

Polenth · Oct 7, 2011

I think it's more realistic in writing groups to go in with the expectation of taking part, but not of making friends. If you do make friends, that's great. But going in with the expectation of friends can lead to rushing into friendships that won't work out. You don't need to be friends with people to get critiques and support.

Katrina S. Forest · Oct 7, 2011

Some people are just nasty critiquers. They're in it to help no one, only to build themselves up. They attack the writer, never the writing. I've dealt with several of them over different critique groups, and I've dealt with the down-to-earth, tell-it-like-it-is critiquers. They're two different types of people and the former can really knock a new writer down. Heck, one of them almost knocked me down *after* I survived Clarion West. The latter are worth their weight in gold.

Yes, when you're published, you'll have dissatisfied readers and rude reviewers, and all that. But when you go to another writer for help and they go out of their way to crush you, yeah, that's going to hurt.

I'm sorry you had the experience you did. There are plenty of critiquers who will give you blunt, honest, feedback without making you feel lousy about it. Hang in there!

gothicangel · Oct 8, 2011

Christyp said:
My husband said all art is subjective, as is the people who create it. I guess I was naive and believed we would all be cheer leaders for eachother, and hold hands when someone was feeling like jumping from the top of the Eifel tower. Now, I'm extremely gun shy, and haven't joined another crit group for fear of a repeat perfermance.

True, all art is subjective, but the publishing industry has standards that it expects it's writers to achieve [and excel] at. 97% of the slush pile does not meet these standards.

That's not meant to put you off, you should use it as a motivator to be in the top 2-3%. Most of all you really need to develop a thick skin. I've had my share of shitty [personal attacks] critiques, soul-destroying rejections from agents. Then there are the publisher rejections, set backs in the publishing process, bad reviews and nasty reader reviews.

If you want to achieve publication, you will need to learn to welcome the negative criticism.

timewaster · Oct 8, 2011

Christyp said:
When I found WD, and AW I was ecstatic. I knew absolutely nothing about the publishing world (I actually googled, "how to publish a novel"). A couple of people, literally two, quickly came to my aid, declaring their undying friendship. Well, to make a loooonnnng story short...we're no longer friends.

My husband said all art is subjective, as is the people who create it. I guess I was naive and believed we would all be cheer leaders for eachother, and hold hands when someone was feeling like jumping from the top of the Eifel tower. Now, I'm extremely gun shy, and haven't joined another crit group for fear of a repeat perfermance.

You don't need a cheer leader not if you want to be successful - you do want honest, straightforward criticism if you can accept it without falling apart.

Charles Farley · Oct 8, 2011

Christyp said:
My husband said all art is subjective, as is the people who create it.

Sounds like a fun guy . .

Not all art is great .. nor writing . . but when we have the guts to find out if your husband is wrong . . . yeah . . Im done . .

Theo81 · Oct 8, 2011

With a crit group, it's important for everybody to be clear what they are critting for. On the boards, I think most of us crit according to "is this good enough to send to an agent". Is it harsh? Yes. Does it help? I hope so.
Ultimately, you are the person who decides whether or not the advice is valid. If it makes sense to you, listen. If there are lots of people saying the same thing, listen. Don't assume the person handing out the advice doesn't know what they are talking about just because you don't like hearing it - lots of people around here prefer to maintain a degree of privacy about their lives. Don't make the mistake of thinking somebody who knows what they are talking about is always right. Don't make the mistake of thinking anybody cares enough to deliberately tear you down because they are a "troll" or because they resent your genius, you are really not that important.

If you want a cheerleader, I can thoroughly recommend Authonomy. I want to be a good writer, I make the assumption other people do too. If I say something about your writing, you have managed to make me care enough to do so. That is a huge first step.

Crits are not the worst thing which can happen. The worst thing is when nobody has anything to say about it.

Don't be discouraged. A crit is not a personal attack. If you aren't ready to have them, that's okay. There'll still be opinionated people around when you're ready.
And always remember, you're allowed another go.

Terie · Oct 8, 2011

Katrina S. Forest said:
Some people are just nasty critiquers. They're in it to help no one, only to build themselves up.

I used to be in a bloody good in-person crit group. It was a proper one, not a 'pat you on the shoulder and congratulate you for having written' one. My work improved tremendously, thanks to this group.

Then a guy like Katrina describes joined. He was a good critter when he focused on the story, and he ultimately became part of the BFF clique. As a matter of fact, before his arrival, there really wasn't much of a BFF clique, but his personality is one of those that engenders that type of thing.

He grew jealous of my success (I had five books published or in the pipline; he had none). He started being really nasty in his crits of my work, but cuz he was in the BFF clique, he got away with it. Then one night he went far over the line in our social e-mail loop...one of those things where he meant to send his snarky comments about me personally (and only subsidiarily about my writing) to one guy and accidentally sent them to the loop.

Because he was in the BFF clique, nothing really happened. Sure, some of the people, even in the clique, were angry with him and told him so, but other than that, there were no consequences. Then when his tune changed into blaming ME for what happened and many of the people followed his lead down that road, I left the group.

I miss the excellent critiques I got from the group, and I'd love to find another one as good as that one. Good crits that help you spot what's wrong in your work are incredibly valuable. But when things get personal, there can be insurmountable problems.

Jealousy is always a problem in a crit group when someone achieves success (and from the OP's recent thread in the Ask the Agent forum, I suspect this is what happened to her). We all experience the roar of the green-eyed monster inside us on occasion, no matter how much we know we shouldn't. The trick is to learn to keep it to oneself and not let it spill over into one's crits or relationships with the other members.

Prisoner24601 · Oct 8, 2011

Christyp said:
My husband said all art is subjective, as is the people who create it. I guess I was naive and believed we would all be cheer leaders for eachother, and hold hands when someone was feeling like jumping from the top of the Eifel tower. Now, I'm extremely gun shy, and haven't joined another crit group for fear of a repeat perfermance.

Please tell me I'm not the only paranoid freak out there!

I don't know what happened to you specifically, but if this was the reason why you joined a crit group, then I can see why you were disappointed. The #1 purpose of a crit group is to critique your work - not hold your hand and tell you how awesome you are. If that's not something you can handle, then you probably shouldn't be joining them because you're going to be wasting everyone's time.

There are other very supportive, cheerleader type places if you look for them, especially on these boards. You should take a closer look around and perhaps spend time there instead.

NeuroFizz · Oct 8, 2011

There are shared responsibilities in a good crit group.

Each member should provide CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

All members should realize that solid, constructive crits are sometimes harsh and hard to take.

No one in the group should be a delicate flower who transfers criticism of a story into criticism of the author.

No one should go into a crit group expecting to have his/her ego stroked or to have his/her hard work put on a pedestal. If it happens, great.

If one wants admiration, get a dog.

Alessandra Kelley · Oct 8, 2011

I'd like to add that communication online, although a tremendous boon, is inherently distanced. We don't really know each other, however familiar we may get with each other. Our online voice may or may not be much like our real-life one in person. Someone we get along with online may be intolerable in person, and vice versa. And online or no, someone we hit it off with at the start may not endure.

MacAllister and the mods enforce a certain politeness on the boards which I feel is absolutely essential to AW's civilised atmosphere. There is a wealth here of experience and willingness to help.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Please don't give up on this magnificent resource because of it.

Linda Adams · Oct 8, 2011

Do make sure you have the right expectations for the critique group. A lot of people go into one for the first time thinking their story is the next greatest best seller and that everyone will praise it. So they are expecting praise and get a rude shock when people find things wrong.

The purpose of a critique is not to praise the writer and be a cheerleader -- it's to give comments about what's wrong in the story. Sometimes the writer doesn't want hear it. Even when you do want it, it still can be an emotional hit. I always suggest just writing down the comments and not saying anything, and then looking at them later, after the emotional hit is over. Sometimes you'll see that they were right. Sometimes you'll see that something else was going on, which will also help you deal with the critique.

If you want to get your feet wet again, resist the temptation to rush your story in for critique. Instead, give critiques. You will learn more about how they work by doing them yourself and seeing other people's reactions.

gothicangel · Oct 8, 2011

I'm a tough critter. I make no apologies for that. What annoys me is when I've given up my time for free to help someone improve, and all the thanks I get is attitude.

Now 99% of the time the OP's are grateful and thank me, but every so often there is one who doesn't appreciate that I have given up my free time not to be their cheerleader.

Soccer Mom · Oct 8, 2011

You do need critters or beta readers and you do need cheerleaders, but they don't need to be the same people. They can be, however. You need cheerleaders who can pick you up when you doubt yourself, who understand tough edits, who can talk you down from the ledge while querying.

You need critters or betas for honest feedback. People who won't lie and tellyou everything is perfect when it isn't.

Take something, make it the best you can, and post it in SYW. Then, go play in the Office Party and make some silly writer friends who can cheer you through the bad times.

Toothpaste · Oct 8, 2011

I just wanted to add something to this thread. If you read the OP's other threads, you'll learn what her experience was with a particular crit group, and you'll realise that this thread is not about her being too sensitive to criticism, but getting some really terrible advice from her crit group, one that comes across as petty and jealous.

So for that reason, I don't think it's necessary to warn her that should she seek out critiques she should expect people to be honest and not sugar coat their comments.

It's tough to trust again when you've been burned. I totally understand that. And that's why you must approach new relationships cautiously. Yes, if you post your work here people will be honest, sometimes bluntly so, but it is very rare indeed that people here are mean. Why? Because if anyone is disrespectful they get a stern warning from a moderator. For that reason it might be safest to post here online as opposed to making relationships here and then taking it offline. I'm not saying you can't do that eventually, but for now, to stay in the land of the cautious, use the protections that AW affords to help prevent a repeat of what you unfortunately went through.

Perks · Oct 8, 2011

Yes, I've been threatened by my favorite critique partner that my poor efforts will be printed out, wrapped around a cricket bat, and then used to bludgeon me to death.

And still, it's excellent advice.

Hang in there. You'll find the people you'll need.

As for the rest? Eff 'em.

Determination · Oct 8, 2011

I think at the end of the day it comes down to trusting your own gut instinct. It's hard to get your work picked apart by others but nine times out of ten a critique will spot a grammar flaw or a plot hole that you've missed. It hurts but at the end of the day that makes you a better writer. A lot of times we can't see out own faults.

Yet I think sometimes we reach a point when can outgrow those same people. If you feel like instead of giving you valuable advice on your work they are holding you back in your career and even giving you bad advice on purpose, then it's time to step back. Your gut should tell you what to believe. A lot of people get jealous when someone forges ahead and gets a lucky break while they are still struggling. Those are not the sort of people you want around when your career takes an upswing. Sometimes you'll find other people to take their place or perhaps you just want to go it alone for a while. There are good people out there but, as always, there can be a bunch of crappy ones too.

fireluxlou · Oct 8, 2011

I felt so bad for you in the other thread. Those people were not helpful and gave you all the wrong advice.

They told you to get rid of your agent and offer as self pubbing is the way to go? and it sounded like all petty jealousy. Don't worry here is much better, people are actually constructive and don't resort to jealousy tactics to make you feel like you're the biggest pile of crap in the world like your writing crit group did.

The op doesn't need the "you have to be prepared for criticism if you are expecting cheerleaders then go somewhere else comments" if you haven't really read her other threads, I don't think you should be belittling her with those kind of comments.

kaitie · Oct 8, 2011

Thanks for the clarification, Toothpaste.

Some people are jerks, some people are immature, and to be honest some people are so insecure that the only way they can keep working themselves is to bring down others.

It's awful, but it's not true of everyone. I've received a couple of iffy critiques before, and more than that I've read quite a few. Part of the difficulty finding a good critique partner is learning how to disregard those critiques that aren't helpful or are rude in one way or the other.

I think that's a little harder to do when it's someone you've made friends with, and most of my critiques now come from friends, but I trust them and have worked with them over time. I think the best thing you can do is put them behind you and realize that not everyone (and not even most) are going to treat you this way. And you know what to look for now, too.

This is going to sound a little horrible, but the first time going through something like that is generally the worst. It's nothing personal, and if anything it says more about your writing partner. If you see it again, you know that's someone you want to avoid.

Sage · Oct 8, 2011

One of my friends in my NaNo group (a writing group, but not a crit group, although two of them are betaing my stuff) was part of a very close-knit crit group. They were all friends, they went to Italy together. They had very specific rules for critting that sounded fabulous to me, but the point to this story is that they considered themselves close friends.

This story is not about how critting tore them apart, although it's easy to see how that could happen.

No, one of them gave my friend a printed-out copy of her novel to read for fun. She did so right before April, when my friend was going to be doing Scriptfrenzy, so she was like, I'll probably read it in May, but I look forward to it. But she kinda got the vibe that the other girl was hoping she'd read it sooner, so she was reading it each morning as she got ready for work.

One day, she spilled an entire cup of tea over the manuscript. She was running late, and so she grabbed some towels and threw them over the ms, hoping that they would sop up the tea. No, instead she ended up with a brick of paper that she could not pry apart. It was completely unsalvageable. So she threw it away and worried about how to tell her friend.

The next day the friend called. She had gone to a writer's workshop a bit ago, and completely changed her novel based off comments she got there, but she hadn't saved the original copy, and she decided she wanted to go back. My friend had the ONLY copy. When she told her what had happened, the other girl flipped out, then told everyone else in the group that my friend had stolen her novel to try to publish it herself, and they all turned against her.

I don't know what the moral of the story is, except "back up your work."

Anyway, there are definitely times that writers can get jealous and try to sabotage other writers in their groups, but there are also writer's groups where everyone is supportive, but can also be constructively critical too. My NaNo group is mostly oriented towards the beginning stages of the novel, "how can I plot this?" "how many words did you write today?" "did you work on that novel of yours I love this week?" type of stuff. But they're good for betaing too. I'm also part of another close writing group that started here on AW, and we often beta each other, and know how to be critical for full novels, excerpts, and queries, but also how to hold hands and support each other when it's needed. If I know a novel's not ready to be sent out, I will speak my mind about that, but if the writer sends it out anyway, I'll still be there cheerleading their queries and fulls.

It's just a matter of finding those groups.

bearilou · Oct 8, 2011

I'm so sorry you went through that. As I read through the comments offered in firm but kind spirit, I offer this.

Here at AW you'll find both those writers who wish you the best and in that vein will tell you some hard things. Many of the AWers do try their hardest to be gentle with it, but they still don't pull punches. There are a few who are raging jerks (which is also subjective. Who I think is a wafflenoggin is not thought to be one by someone else) but as your time here continues, you'll know who to roll your eyes at and ignore and who to listen to.

But when I discovered that even the wafflenoggins are cheerleaders in their own way. They want you to succeed. They want you to be happy what you're doing.

When they don their critique hats, they're telling you what you should hear and it's not with the intent to tear you down, even if that is what it may feel like. You will need to gird your loins and take their comments in the spirit intended.

For the most part, people here are good folks. They give back pats and cheers when needed.

Gun shy after being burned by other writers...

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