Teachers No Longer Allowed to have Consensual Sex with other Adults in Private (maybe)

Bookewyrme · Sep 27, 2011

Here's what happened, as I have discovered so far.

From the Huffington Post

Natalie Santagata has been fired from her teaching job after, authorities say, sexually explicit video and pictures of her were sent to parents.
Naples News reports that the allegedly scandalous materials were posted, for a brief time, on YouTube.

There were apparently no minors present, the teacher herself never intended the videos to be made public (although apparently she knew about them) and has never been accused of any other sort of sexual misconduct. But she was fired anyway, because it was a moral issue or something. Because sex is bad, and scary, and people who have it are immoral, so think of teh childrens! Or something.

Gawker's take on it (this is the article mentioned in the HuffPo video). The worst part for me is this:

What isn't reasonable, however, is how school officials and the general public have criticized Santagata for her perceived moral shortcomings without condeming those of the person who sent her sex videos all over the county—which they ostensibly did to humiliate her and endanger her job.

Can we say massive breach of privacy? I understand, don't post things on the internet that you don't want to be seen in public. The internet is forever. But you can no longer make any home movies, or take pictures for private consumption without having to worry about maybe losing your job someday in the future? What the hell?!

kuwisdelu · Sep 27, 2011

Bookewyrme said:
I understand, don't post things on the internet that you don't want to be seen in public. The internet is forever. But you can no longer make any home movies, or take pictures for private consumption without having to worry about maybe losing your job someday in the future? What the hell?!

I agree. It's stupid.

"Don't post things you don't want to be public" is cool and all.

"Don't ever let anyone else make any photos, videos, etc., of you on the off chance your relationship might one day in the future change and that person might post those photos, videos, etc. on the internet" is fucking stupid. Especially since you can't always control people who'll do that without your knowledge. But even disregarding that...

Yes, there's a lot to be said for only doing that kind of stuff with someone you Really, Really, Really trust. But still. Relationships change. You get betrayed.

Would a reputable company ever decide not to hire you based on the fact that you're divorced and your ex-spouse is a douche? Some, maybe. Most? I hope not. (Not to mention, I think it's illegal.)

Would a reputable company ever decide not to hire you based on the fact that you're divorced and your ex-spourse is a douche with a YouTube account? YES. AND THAT IS A PROBLEM. IMO, anyway.

Meh.

Judgmental idiots.

What the fuck is wrong with people, I will never understand.

areteus · Sep 28, 2011

The main issue in cases like this is one of professionalism. A teacher has to have a professional front for his/her students and if that is lost then it makes the job difficult. There is also the in loco parentis thing - you are supposed to be a role model for the children and if they see you doing things like that then they assume it is ok and will do it themselves. The same argument applies with regards to getting drunk where students can see you or swearing in front of them. All of these will get you fired or at least heavily investigated by the GTC and at risk of losing your registration.

There was a case of a teacher who write erotic romance novels in her spare time. She got investigated and was suspended from teaching but I think the ruling was overturned.

Maxinquaye · Sep 28, 2011

areteus said:
The main issue in cases like this is one of professionalism. A teacher has to have a professional front for his/her students and if that is lost then it makes the job difficult. There is also the in loco parentis thing - you are supposed to be a role model for the children and if they see you doing things like that then they assume it is ok and will do it themselves. The same argument applies with regards to getting drunk where students can see you or swearing in front of them. All of these will get you fired or at least heavily investigated by the GTC and at risk of losing your registration.

So it's not okay to have consentual sex with other adults because kids can connect the dots? This POV of a worry about professionalism?

What about pregnant women? Are they not allowed to teach now because the only way they can become pregnant is if they have sex (or inseminate).

crunchyblanket · Sep 28, 2011

There is also the in loco parentis thing - you are supposed to be a role model for the children and if they see you doing things like that then they assume it is ok and will do it themselves.

I get this, but it wasn't like she distributed the videos herself - it was malice on someone else's part. And in any case, I wonder how many of these kids have watched porn, or walked in on their parents doing the deed - I highly doubt they're all innocent, corruptible little angels.

I just think it's ludicrous that this woman did something perfectly legal, consensual and normal in her private life, but is being lambasted for it.

Vince524 · Sep 28, 2011

Everyone is leaving out the fact that it shows her smoking pot. Which is a big no no. Also, she taught 4th grade. So I would guess that most if not all of her students haven't seen porn.

My wife is always on my case to be careful what I post on my facebook page, even though there's no direct link between me and her school (IE: I have my settings on private, and I'm not friends with any one in her school, parent, staff or student.)

crunchyblanket · Sep 28, 2011

Vince524 said:
Everyone is leaving out the fact that it shows her smoking pot. Which is a big no no. Also, she taught 4th grade. So I would guess that most if not all of her students haven't seen porn.

Okay, fair do's, I didn't check the age. But the point still stands. She did all of this in private. That it became public was not her fault. And since the kids were so young, the chances of them having seen the video are basically nil, so they would probably have no knowledge of it if not for the hysterical parents.

Maxinquaye · Sep 28, 2011

In my younger days I've been photographed and filmed being exuberantly drunk, and dressed in things that would make the fashion police roll out the electric chair. This while saying (or shouting) things that my naturally demure and polite personality would shudder to say in a sober condition.

If someone that is not me would decide that these private moments should be put up for public consumption, then that should mean a trade ban for life? Must a teacher abdicate living a life in order not to teach children? What about pregnant women?

I'm sorry, but I think that is quite revolting.

Sheryl Nantus · Sep 28, 2011

I'm hoping she sues the crap out of the person who took/posted the video.

NoGuessing · Sep 28, 2011

Maxinquaye said:
In my younger days I've been photographed and filmed being exuberantly drunk, and dressed in things that would make the fashion police roll out the electric chair. This while saying (or shouting) things that my naturally demure and polite personality would shudder to say in a sober condition.

If someone that is not me would decide that these private moments should be put up for public consumption, then that should mean a trade ban for life? Must a teacher abdicate living a life in order not to teach children? What about pregnant women?

I'm sorry, but I think that is quite revolting.

Haha yeah, this.

Basically they're saying "You must choose between your career or your life."

areteus · Sep 28, 2011

It's a big issue. Trouble is that many schools are only just catching up to the issues of social media* and things like this catch them on the hop. It is generally fine to do what you want as a teacher behind closed doors but they don't like it when you advertise. Even though she did not post these images herself, they still treat it as if she had decided to show these images to her class as part of a lesson.

They may have to update disciplinary procedures for this sort of thing (and things like this set a precedent) but until they do they will work off the ones they have which is to investigate and suspend.

It's not right but I suspect that there is a lot of pressure on them to do something from the governing bodies and the parents. In fact, this sort of thing is usually only a problem if/when a parent sees it. The children couldn't care less (it's funny to them) and most of them are far more sexually aware than their parents think they are. Though 4th grade is very young so there is a greater issue of child protection here than there may be in older children.

Basically, general school policies on internet usage are:

- Don't post anything compromising under your own name
- Keep all social media profiles locked down and private (friends only)
- Never, ever, ever friend any of your pupils on any social media site or talk to them using any messenger system or e-mail except for those provided by the school for that purpose (which are logged and moderated to watch out for inappropriate behaviour)

It is up there with the various very conservative dress codes that most schools have (no off the wall hairstyles, obvious tatoos - especially obscene ones, no clothes with anything obscene on them and so on). You can be fired for any of these things if you work in a school. I have heard stories of male teachers being warned to change trousers in an all girls school because they were too tight and female teachers being asked to not wear a very short skirt and see through blouse at an all boys school.

To be absolutely honest, these rules are nothing to do with protecting the children but are everything to do with protecting the teacher from accusations.

*To be honest, most schools have issues with anything from the 20th century never mind the 21st. They may use technology but they don't understand it so well. Most students run rings around the majority of teachers in terms of IT. I have sat and watched a teacher not only display her private e-mail on the whiteboard where anyone who was walking past could read it but also seriously ponder if she should reply to an e-mail from Nigeria which the majority of internet users would spot as a scam...

JimmyB27 · Sep 28, 2011

Vince524 said:
Everyone is leaving out the fact that it shows her smoking pot. Which is a big no no.

Does it show her rolling the joint? If not, how do you know it's pot?

ETA: From the Gawker article: "But we're not ruling out hand-rolled cigarettes, so let's just focus on the sex part!"

Vince524 · Sep 28, 2011

I'm going by what's in the article, so I don't know for sure.

NoGuessing · Sep 28, 2011

areteus said:
It's a big issue. Trouble is that many schools are only just catching up to the issues of social media* and things like this catch them on the hop. It is generally fine to do what you want as a teacher behind closed doors but they don't like it when you advertise. Even though she did not post these images herself, they still treat it as if she had decided to show these images to her class as part of a lesson.

They may have to update disciplinary procedures for this sort of thing (and things like this set a precedent) but until they do they will work off the ones they have which is to investigate and suspend.

It's not right but I suspect that there is a lot of pressure on them to do something from the governing bodies and the parents. In fact, this sort of thing is usually only a problem if/when a parent sees it. The children couldn't care less (it's funny to them) and most of them are far more sexually aware than their parents think they are. Though 4th grade is very young so there is a greater issue of child protection here than there may be in older children.

Basically, general school policies on internet usage are:

- Don't post anything compromising under your own name
- Keep all social media profiles locked down and private (friends only)
- Never, ever, ever friend any of your pupils on any social media site or talk to them using any messenger system or e-mail except for those provided by the school for that purpose (which are logged and moderated to watch out for inappropriate behaviour)

It is up there with the various very conservative dress codes that most schools have (no off the wall hairstyles, obvious tatoos - especially obscene ones, no clothes with anything obscene on them and so on). You can be fired for any of these things if you work in a school. I have heard stories of male teachers being warned to change trousers in an all girls school because they were too tight and female teachers being asked to not wear a very short skirt and see through blouse at an all boys school.

To be absolutely honest, these rules are nothing to do with protecting the children but are everything to do with protecting the teacher from accusations.

*To be honest, most schools have issues with anything from the 20th century never mind the 21st. They may use technology but they don't understand it so well. Most students run rings around the majority of teachers in terms of IT. I have sat and watched a teacher not only display her private e-mail on the whiteboard where anyone who was walking past could read it but also seriously ponder if she should reply to an e-mail from Nigeria which the majority of internet users would spot as a scam...

These regulations schools have sound very "blame the victim." Well meaning yes, but if some kid looks at your bits, it's your fault for wearing a shorter skirt/tighter pants. If some douche posts your private sex tape on the net, it's your fault for making one. You deserve to be fired for the actions someone else took to actively hurt you.

Mharvey · Sep 28, 2011

Just what we need. More reasons for people not to become teachers. I guess it's just not enough that the hours are long and the pay is terrible: lets punish them for sex too.

Devil Ledbetter · Sep 28, 2011

The problem is nearly any violation of personal and private freedoms can be justified as long as one shrieks "But what about the pwecious chiiiiiiildrennhn?" in just the right horrified tone.

Should we require sexual abstinence of teachers? We've seen how that worked out with Catholic priests ....

crunchyblanket · Sep 28, 2011

It is up there with the various very conservative dress codes that most schools have (no off the wall hairstyles, obvious tatoos - especially obscene ones, no clothes with anything obscene on them and so on). You can be fired for any of these things if you work in a school.

I don't get how restricting tattoos and 'off the wall' hairstyles protects teachers in any way. It just kowtows to social conservatism. A bit like punishing them for having a sex life.

areteus · Sep 28, 2011

All true... but a lot of it is based on 'don't give the public a reason to assume you are a... [whatever]'. The mob is stupid and will make assumptions based on appearance and you really do not want to get on the wrong side of the mob. As I said, the majority of teachers don't care what you do, the majiroty of school admin don't care and the majority of the kids shrug and assume you are human. The parents on the other hand...

NoGuessing · Sep 28, 2011

Sometimes schools need to take a leaf out of the kids books and tell the parents to shove it.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but nearly every day there's a story where a public lynch mob condemns someone unfairly. I really don't like it.

crunchyblanket · Sep 28, 2011

areteus said:
All true... but a lot of it is based on 'don't give the public a reason to assume you are a... [whatever]'. The mob is stupid and will make assumptions based on appearance and you really do not want to get on the wrong side of the mob. As I said, the majority of teachers don't care what you do, the majiroty of school admin don't care and the majority of the kids shrug and assume you are human. The parents on the other hand...

I'm not disagreeing with you - you're sadly right about the mob. But I don't feel like pandering to them is the right way to address these kinds of issues. Would it not be far better to treat their prejudices for what they are, and allow teachers to have tattoos, or pink hair, on the proviso that they do their job well?

We can't change perceptions unless we challenge them, and IMO, insisting that teachers meet the aesthetic standards set out by "the mob" is more or less conceding to their unreasonableness.

MarkEsq · Sep 28, 2011

This is very sad, particularly because I believe under the law she is technically (and morally in my view) a victim. But she's the one being punished.

Great example for the kids.

Romantic Heretic · Sep 28, 2011

Shrugs. Doesn't surprise me. Many people have no problem using any tool whatsoever to force other people to 'behave properly.' 'Professionalism' is an especially convenient weapon for this purpose. It's been used against me more than once.

Romantic Heretic · Sep 28, 2011

crunchyblanket said:
Would it not be far better to treat their prejudices for what they are, and allow teachers to have tattoos, or pink hair, on the proviso that they do their job well?

I've found over the years that many people, perhaps most, don't give two shrill hoots in Niffleheim about whether the work is done well or not. They're far more interested in propriety and power.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 28, 2011

Romantic Heretic said:
I've found over the years that many people, perhaps most, don't give two shrill hoots in Niffleheim about whether the work is done well or not. They're far more interested in propriety and power.

You're starting to sound like the other Rob

Manuel Royal · Sep 28, 2011

I wouldn't care if my kid's teacher were a porn actress known industry-wide by the nickname "7-10", as long as she did a good job in the classroom.

Teachers No Longer Allowed to have Consensual Sex with other Adults in Private (maybe)

Imagined half of it.

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