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View Full Version : The Craft, The professionalism, the long haul



Paul
09-25-2011, 02:52 AM
exactly.

anything less is just nonsense.

quicklime
09-25-2011, 03:32 AM
I think trying to break them up as though they are mutualy exclusive is like insisting you want to know if the object in my hand is red, or square. Any number of combinations of the above have sold something for someone at some time. That said, ideally you work as hard at each of the three as you possibly can.

Paul
09-25-2011, 03:37 AM
I think trying to break them up as though they are mutualy exclusive is like insisting you want to know if the object in my hand is red, or square. Any number of combinations of the above have sold something for someone at some time. That said, ideally you work as hard at each of the three as you possibly can.
yes, true.

but without the perseverance luck is worthless.

personally i gonna vote fro no. 4

:)

Edit. Actually it would seem i am drunk. so bon nuit etc to all

Filigree
09-25-2011, 04:59 AM
Another vote for dogged perseverance. In my limited experience, I make my own luck. By writing and completing projects, so they are ready to go. By researching calls-for-entries and agent wish lists, and networking as much as I can within the industry. And by actually submitting work, so that it can go through the process.

I'm still learning the craft, and suspect that will be a lifetime effort. I'm learning professionalism from folks who've graciously allowed me to tag along behind them. I'm fine with the long haul, since I've been writing for a long time already.

Wayne K
09-25-2011, 06:39 AM
. I vote perspiverance :)

leahzero
09-25-2011, 07:32 AM
I think you should have included Alcoholism on there somewhere.

P.S. You're drunk.

Dawnstorm
09-25-2011, 12:46 PM
It's like this:

If you're successful straight away, you'll call it luck. The longer it takes, the more likely you'll call it preseverance. Then, there comes the time when you lose hope: if you succeed after that point you'll probably say that you're lucky (as your perseverance was about to run out). It's a cycle that can only be broken by despair.

PrincessofPersia
09-25-2011, 12:59 PM
Didn't someone say that you need some combination of talent, perseverance and luck? You don't need equal thirds, but as long as they make 100%, you'll succeed.

bettielee
09-25-2011, 01:07 PM
I don't have any success, so clearly, I have no idea.

I'm just hoping there will be kittens. And puppies.

ChaosTitan
09-25-2011, 05:07 PM
You need "ability" on that list. Perseverance and luck are useless to have if you don't have some writing ability to go along with it.

scarletpeaches
09-25-2011, 05:12 PM
One thing it doesn't take it luck. I despise that concept. It takes away from the fact I've worked for my own achievements.

It takes talent and perseverance.

Phaeal
09-25-2011, 05:28 PM
Write well, slog on, and land it on the right desk at the right time.

What's so hard about that?

;)

Paul
09-25-2011, 05:31 PM
You need "ability" on that list. Perseverance and luck are useless to have if you don't have some writing ability to go along with it.
Drat.

Knew there'd be something....

Libbie
09-25-2011, 07:45 PM
Luck does play a small factor, but it's a really small one. Hitting the right editor at the right time when you happen to have just what they're looking for is mostly a matter of luck, but it can eventually be achieved with perseverance.

What can't eventually be achieved with mere perseverance is developing your craft. If you just persevere and continue to write the same as you've always written, you're just going to be repeatedly ramming your head into a brick wall. You need to persevere at improving, not just as writing and submitting. And you need to plan to improve all the time, throughout the entire span of your career.

You need to learn how to take and give a critique; you need to critique others' works so that you can learn to see the problems in your own work without relying on others to point it out to you. You need to learn the rhythm of your own writing process so you can tell roughly where you are in the creation of any given piece you're working on.

Just persevering isn't enough, if you haven't learned how to make yourself better and more efficient and more confident.

AlwaysJuly
09-25-2011, 08:48 PM
You need to persevere at improving, not just as writing and submitting. And you need to plan to improve all the time, throughout the entire span of your career.

This is always something I wonder about, as someone whose craft has improved, is continuing to improve, and where there seems to be so much still to learn and master... I always wonder if professional writers feel like they still have improvements to make or if they do feel a sense of mastery.

scarletpeaches
09-25-2011, 09:26 PM
There are a few published authors I can point to who appear to have gotten lazy over the years. There are certainly some who believe themselves to be above the editing process.

Libbie
09-25-2011, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I'd say some professionals fall by the wayside here, get too comfortable.... But I think most of them genuinely want to do a better job each time and push themselves out of their comfort zone a little with each new work.

Alitriona
09-25-2011, 11:34 PM
I vote perseverance. I'm another who believes saying it's luck somehow diminishes how much work I've put in to drag myself to this point.

PrincessofPersia
09-25-2011, 11:55 PM
I vote perseverance. I'm another who believes saying it's luck somehow diminishes how much work I've put in to drag myself to this point.

I'm not sure I understand that. How does getting your query or MS into the right agent's hands at the right time diminish how much work you put into it? Meeting someone at a conference who then asks you to submit something? That's great luck, and you shouldn't look at it as something negative. It was lucky that you met them, but it was your hard work and talent that made them want to read your MS.

Phaeal
09-26-2011, 12:19 AM
I agree with the Princess. Luck does not negate hard work. In fact, hard work and perserverence give luck more opportunities to strike. The more good MSS you have (hard work) and the longer you keep them on sub (perserverence), the greater the chance you'll reach the right reader at the right time. Being market savvy may factor in as another "controllable" aspect of success, but it's not immune to chance, either. If you see that sweet porcupine romances are hot, someone else is seeing it, too; and someone else is checking off the agents looking for sweet porcupine romances; and someone else may get their sweet porcupine romance on the right desk before you, or vice versa. Or someone will put out a sweet sparkly porcupine romance as you're finishing your nonsparkly porcupine romance and blow the market to hell with sparkle overload.

I think what pisses people off is not that they might have gotten lucky, but that some will see only the luck part (it's shiny!) and not the sweat and tears (ewwww, too salty.)

I also file under "luck" any factor beyond the writer's writerly control. Like she's a celebrity in another field, or his mother knows an agent who doesn't take cold queries but had a look at his for friendship's sake (and then took the book on because of its merits.*)



* I'm assuming no agent is going to take on a crappy MS just because of she knows Mom. But I guess if Mom was scary enough. Like if Grendel's Mom sent me the lil' monster's novel, I might have to accept it, since breathing is my favorite sport.

RobJ
09-26-2011, 12:26 AM
Nothing 'breeds success'. Nevertheless, some people manage to achieve it.

Some people persevere and get nowhere.

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 01:32 AM
Saying that nothing breeds success is an insult to the work people put in to make their way successful.

Paul
09-26-2011, 01:42 AM
I agree with the Princess. Luck does not negate hard work. In fact, hard work and perserverence give luck more opportunities to strike. The more good MSS you have (hard work) and the longer you keep them on sub (perserverence), the greater the chance you'll reach the right reader at the right time. Being market savvy may factor in as another "controllable" aspect of success, but it's not immune to chance, either. If you see that sweet porcupine romances are hot, someone else is seeing it, too; and someone else is checking off the agents looking for sweet porcupine romances; and someone else may get their sweet porcupine romance on the right desk before you, or vice versa. Or someone will put out a sweet sparkly porcupine romance as you're finishing your nonsparkly porcupine romance and blow the market to hell with sparkle overload.

I think what pisses people off is not that they might have gotten lucky, but that some will see only the luck part (it's shiny!) and not the sweat and tears (ewwww, too salty.)

I also file under "luck" any factor beyond the writer's writerly control. Like she's a celebrity in another field, or his mother knows an agent who doesn't take cold queries but had a look at his for friendship's sake (and then took the book on because of its merits.*)



* I'm assuming no agent is going to take on a crappy MS just because of she knows Mom. But I guess if Mom was scary enough. Like if Grendel's Mom sent me the lil' monster's novel, I might have to accept it, since breathing is my favorite sport.

QFT.

btw, by perseverance I mean in the act of writing, ideally to improve, more so than in the sub process.


luck is a funny aul divil. best to be held by the tail than by the hand

RobJ
09-26-2011, 01:44 AM
Saying that nothing breeds success is an insult to the work people put in to make their way successful.
Does it also insult those people who put in the same amount of work but aren't successful?

Paul
09-26-2011, 01:48 AM
Does it also insult those people who put in the same amount of work but aren't successful?
leaving yerself wide open . i can nearly hear the upcoming punch. (ouch) :D

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 03:33 AM
Does it also insult those people who put in the same amount of work but aren't successful?No. It insults people who work hard then have the value of that taken away from them by allegations of chance or luck.

There is nothing 'lucky' about the fact I have sold seven books. There is nothing 'lucky' about the many writers I know who have agents and are traditionally print-published. There is nothing 'lucky' about slogging your guts out and seeing the appropriate reward for that.

Mclesh
09-26-2011, 03:42 AM
I don't have any success, so clearly, I have no idea.

I'm just hoping there will be kittens. And puppies.

Don't forget ponies. There's got to be a pony in there somewhere. (I really hope so.)

PrincessofPersia
09-26-2011, 03:48 AM
No. It insults people who work hard then have the value of that taken away from them by allegations of chance or luck.

There is nothing 'lucky' about the fact I have sold seven books. There is nothing 'lucky' about the many writers I know who have agents and are traditionally print-published. There is nothing 'lucky' about slogging your guts out and seeing the appropriate reward for that.

Really? I guess I see luck differently than most people. I consider myself lucky that AW exists, because without it, I wouldn't have met people who have helped and encouraged me in my writing goals. Attributing part of my success to the initial luck that brought me here in no way diminishes the hard work I have and continue to put into writing.

If and when my query hits an agent who requests more and ultimately signs it, I will attribute part of that to luck, since without AW, it might not have happened. But that's just me.

The only thing I see as an insult is when talentless hacks like the octo-mom whose only skill is being a shitty parent who makes poor decisions gets a book deal with a huge advance. THAT insults me, because absolutely no hard work or skill went into it.

RobJ
09-26-2011, 03:49 AM
No. It insults people who work hard then have the value of that taken away from them by allegations of chance or luck.
I didn't make any such allegations. If that insults you, too bad.

blacbird
09-26-2011, 03:55 AM
The "long haul" is nothing more than watching that damn rock you carried up the hill, roll back down it again.

And again.

And again.

Forgoddamever.

caw

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 03:56 AM
I don't see AW's existence as luck either. Nor my finding it. Someone built this site, then I googled for writing fora.

I would still be published without it. As soon? Probably not. With publishers such as Loose Id? Maybe not yet. But I'd get there in the end.

Maybe I'd be writing a different genre, or have taken longer to get to my current standard, but somehow, somehow, I'd have got there.

Simply because I've never imagined any other future for myself but as a writer.

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 03:56 AM
I didn't make any such allegations. If that insults you, too bad.Classy.

blacbird
09-26-2011, 03:57 AM
No. It insults people who work hard then have the value of that taken away from them by allegations of chance or luck.

There is nothing 'lucky' about the fact I have sold seven books. There is nothing 'lucky' about the many writers I know who have agents and are traditionally print-published. There is nothing 'lucky' about slogging your guts out and seeing the appropriate reward for that.

Yeah, but that doesn't address the question, does it? What about the writers who slog their guts out and never see "the appropriate reward for that"?

Oh, wait, that means they have no ability. I get it now. Excuse me while I wipe the residue of snobbery off my computer screen.

caw

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 03:58 AM
Well as has been said in this thread before, "If that insults you, too bad."

PrincessofPersia
09-26-2011, 04:04 AM
I would still be published without it. As soon? Probably not. With publishers such as Loose Id? Maybe not yet. But I'd get there in the end.


You definitely would have gotten there on your own, because luck isn't everything. It's only insulting when someone insinuates that talent and hard work have nothing to do with it. Saying luck plays a part is in no way insulting to you as a writer.

If you don't believe in luck, then it's a different story. But you seem to be at least slightly offended at the idea that luck could have helped you out, so I don't think that's the case.

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 04:06 AM
I think people are confusing luck with chance.

blacbird
09-26-2011, 05:05 AM
I think people are confusing luck with chance.

Might we consult McPeaches' Unabridged Dictionary, 2011 edition, for a definitive clarification of these nouns? With relevant examples of their proper use?

caw

jaksen
09-26-2011, 05:17 AM
Perseverance is meaningless if your writing is boring and you can't catch an audience. Lots of talented writers are dull as dishwater. Lots of so-so writers can capture a reader spellbound. You have to have some ability - and be interesting.

(btw, I think perseverance is misspelled in the poll.)

blacbird
09-26-2011, 07:41 AM
From the attitudes presented in this thread, it appears that those of us who haven't had publication success just have no business being here, among the higher-class of writers. I grovel in the presence of such magnificence. Please accept my apologies for having violated this rule.

caw

Filigree
09-26-2011, 08:11 AM
I'm not getting that from this thread, Blacbird. It doesn't seem dismissive, but more supporting -- as in a 'we've been there, too' way. Hell, I haven't been published since 2000, and that was by a company that went defunct shortly after. I've had a long way to climb back up the hill, and I'm grimly trying to make the best of my opportunities. Am I doomed to failure? Who the hell knows?

At least, if I write, I'll have stories ready to go. BTW, the story I sent in to the AW anthology was originally written in 1989. I'd set it aside after it got form-rejected from EVERY FANTASY MARKET AROUND, and didn't look at it again until March of this year. And I saw one simple change that might turn the story into something good. It got rejected again, several times. But this time around, I've been getting personalized comments, so I know it's a matter of time before it finds the right home.

I have to ask: what do you write, and where do you submit your writing?
Do you have beta readers, or take workshops? Because you've been on AW since 2005, and among your over-20K posts are many extremely literate and keenly-worded observations.

I can sympathize with being out-of-step with markets. The kinds of fantasy I like to write don't seem to appeal to the major markets like Tor.com, and I can't change my mindset to write what they like. But I'm finding slightly smaller markets that have invited me to send more work, after personalized rejections.

Keep trying.

aruna
09-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Write well, slog on, and land it on the right desk at the right time.

What's so hard about that?

;)

This, under my definition, is luck.


I vote perseverance. I'm another who believes saying it's luck somehow diminishes how much work I've put in to drag myself to this point.

Depends how you define luck. We can work as hard as anything, and nothing happens; and then out of the blue, there's a sudden constellation of events that is just perfect for you, and everythig falls into place. This DOES happen. And it often happens just when you've given up all hope. It's happened to me many times in my life; it's that extraordinary factor X that makes me know that hard work and talent very often go without reward for years, or even decades. I know such people. And then, it sometimes takes just one extraordinary alignment of circumstances, and Hey Presto! It feels like a miracle; and it was not something you could ever have controlled.

That doesn't diminish my effort. It's almost like the reward for my effort, a reward beyond my control. That's why I love it so much. Luck is just one word for it; possibly an inappropriate word.

Theo81
09-26-2011, 03:44 PM
There's perseverance and there's blind perseverance. I could write 18 books and amass enough rejections to make a life-size papermache sculpture of Purefoy for SP's pleasure, it makes not one jot of difference to anything. Success is bred by adaptable perseverance - if something hasn't worked, figure out why not and change it next time. Repeat as necessary.

I'm firmly in the "luck denigrates achievements camp".

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 03:45 PM
*perks*

Did someone just mention the sainted James? :e2thud:

Archerbird
09-26-2011, 04:25 PM
Yeah, but that doesn't address the question, does it? What about the writers who slog their guts out and never see "the appropriate reward for that"?

Oh, wait, that means they have no ability. I get it now. Excuse me while I wipe the residue of snobbery off my computer screen.

caw

If one keep trying to do the same thing for 10 years without getting anywhere, then no, one probably doesn't.

Manuel Royal
09-26-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm another who believes saying it's luck somehow diminishes how much work I've put in to drag myself to this point. Your feelings on the matter (or my feelings) are irrelevant to whether it's true.

Now, "luck" as the imaginary force gamblers pray to doesn't exist. But chance factors outside our direct control do.

aruna
09-26-2011, 04:59 PM
Now, "luck" as the imaginary force gamblers pray to doesn't exist. But chance factors outside our direct control do.

Just what I was trying to say, clumsily.

(In fact, just such a "chance factor" happpened to me a few months ago, setting off a string of totally unexpected (good!) events.
I could never, ever have foreseen all this, and I am not responsible for its occurance. It's that elusive "thing".

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 05:05 PM
When it comes to meeting with the right editor at the right time, or networking with an agent, let no-one say I was lucky.

I wasn't lucky. I was ready.

aruna
09-26-2011, 05:14 PM
Same thing, different terminology.
As long as you were not aware of the existence of said editor beforehand, and did not deliberately plan for your ms to land on HER desk exactly at the time when she was looking for just such a ms, then it was outside of your control.
Some people (like me!) have a wider definition of the word luck; to me, all it means is "those things we could not plan for".

scarletpeaches
09-26-2011, 05:28 PM
To steal a quote from someone else:

It's funny. The harder I work, the luckier I get.

Alitriona
09-26-2011, 05:32 PM
There's perseverance and there's blind perseverance. I could write 18 books and amass enough rejections to make a life-size papermache sculpture of Purefoy for SP's pleasure, it makes not one jot of difference to anything. Success is bred by adaptable perseverance - if something hasn't worked, figure out why not and change it next time. Repeat as necessary.

I'm firmly in the "luck denigrates achievements camp".

Exactly.

With publishing, you create opportunity by research, hard work and adaptability.

As some can't seem to accept I don't believe in luck, I can't understand how people do.

If my book lands on an editors desk, it's because I got it there through researching the most appropriate place to send it. If they like the writing and story it's because I worked at it. If it is what they are looking for at the time, it's because, a) I wrote a good story and b)it's what the market is dictating and the public is buying.

aruna
09-26-2011, 05:48 PM
You can research editors and agents as much as you like; you still can't predict if:

a) on the day your ms lands on their desk, they just happened to accept a very similar one and their list is full.

b) they have a blistering headache, or thier boyfriend walked out on them, or their child is in hospitl with a brain tumour and they're in a bad temper/worried/devastated/distracted/reading with interest/enthusiasm, rejecting everything.

c) they are on holiday that week and their assistant is doing some sorting and somehow your ms happens to fall into the gap at the back of her desk, and remains there for the next six months.

d) the editor's dog ate it.

Luck is not some mysterious supernatural agent that swoops in with a magic wand. Luck is all the things that happen that we did not, could not, plan for. If I pass under a bridge the minute before it collapses, that was (good) luck. The person whose car gets buried in the rubble had bad luck. Neither of us could have planned it. Maybe the person who got buried was a careful driver; maybe I'm a bad driver. Sometimes bad and lazy writers get published. Sometimes good, hard-working writers don't.

We humans do not have ultimate control over events. I think it's good to acknowledge that -- and still work as hard as we bloody can. The two things -- working hard and events beyond our control working in our favour -- do not eliminate each other.

Alitriona
09-26-2011, 07:15 PM
You can research editors and agents as much as you like; you still can't predict if:

a) on the day your ms lands on their desk, they just happened to accept a very similar one and their list is full.

b) they have a blistering headache, or thier boyfriend walked out on them, or their child is in hospitl with a brain tumour and they're in a bad temper/worried/devastated/distracted/reading with interest/enthusiasm, rejecting everything.

c) they are on holiday that week and their assistant is doing some sorting and somehow your ms happens to fall into the gap at the back of her desk, and remains there for the next six months.

d) the editor's dog ate it.



I don't consider any of that luck, good or bad. I view it as part of life. Life happens. If their dog ate it, I wouldn't know anyway. I would submit elsewhere and that's where perseverance comes in.


Luck is not some mysterious supernatural agent that swoops in with a magic wand. Luck is all the things that happen that we did not, could not, plan for. If I pass under a bridge the minute before it collapses, that was (good) luck. The person whose car gets buried in the rubble had bad luck. Neither of us could have planned it. Maybe the person who got buried was a careful driver; maybe I'm a bad driver. Sometimes bad and lazy writers get published. Sometimes good, hard-working writers don't.

We humans do not have ultimate control over events.

If I pass under a bridge before it collapses, that is called lack of structural integrity.

Let me put it in context of my life. My mother had a heart valve transplant. There were two valves on a table, the surgeon happened to pick up the one that turned out to be faulty. Some would said that was bad luck. Some have said it. No, not bad luck, a bad decision to use a device already the subject of a class action suit and not sufficiently tested. Did I have control over it? At the time no, I was too young. Did others yes, they did. My parents could have asked more questions, the surgeon could have done more research or chosen to place the value of life above the cost of a product. The company could have withdrawn the product from sale or tested it better. None of that was bad luck, it's mathematical probability. If so many faulty items are in a batch, someone is going to get one.

I do understand the point you are making and you make it well from your viewpoint but it's not my view of the world. Natural disasters and genetics aside, humans have more control over their lives than they choose to believe because they write it off as luck or chance, higher powers or destiny. After years of asking why me about many things in my life. I now prefer mathematical probability, science, evolution, hard work, perseverance and taking responsibility for my path in life.

I remember a similar thread before where the same debate happened and it dissolved into the same back and forth and I think I'm derailing from the basic publishing question, sorry. I think it's one of those things people have to agree to disagree on.

Phaeal
09-26-2011, 09:31 PM
My snarky avatar says, "When something good happens to you, it's no more than you deserve. When it happens to someone else, it's luck."

Ladies, don't bother slapping him. He likes that.

Archerbird
09-27-2011, 01:44 AM
If one keep trying to do the same thing for 10 years without getting anywhere, then no, one probably doesn't.

Seems like I offended someone with this post before I edited. I was not aiming to anyone specific at all, merely commenting on someone else's post, and I'm not going to delete it.

Mark G
09-27-2011, 04:28 AM
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca

"prep·a·ra·tion 1. the action or process of making something ready for use or service or of getting ready for some occasion, test, or duty" - Merriam Webster Dictionary

"op·por·tu·ni·ty  2. a situation or condition favorable for attainment of a goal." - Dictionary.com

Without preparation, we will always be ill-prepared for opportunities. Luck will smile on those who prepare well. Some might say you need more. Maybe the unlucky among us might say that those who are lucky are thus due to their genius.

"Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration." - Thomas Edison

I say: Perseverence wins.

per·se·ver·ance
1. steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

I have three manuscripts to rewrite in the wake of feedback from the writer's conference I just attended. I wouldn't have known what revisions would be needed if I hadn't gone to that conference or joined a writers' group.

Fate is what we make it.

or said more poetically:


All are architects of Fate,
Working in these walls of Time;
Some with massive deeds and great,
Some with ornaments of rhyme.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Wadsworth_Longfellow), The Seaside and the Fireside, "The Builders" (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Builders) (1849), st. 1.

Mark G
09-27-2011, 06:43 AM
"The more I practice, the luckier I get." - Gary Player, Golfer.

Shadow_Ferret
09-27-2011, 07:24 AM
I voted perseverance, but I think it's only part of the equation.

The rest of it is hard work, talent, and determination.

Toothpaste
09-27-2011, 08:07 AM
All I see here (and in the exact same thread that happened in a different section of AW last week) is a battle over semantics. "That's not luck, that's chance", "That's not chance, it's life". Can we simply agree that there are things out of our control but since they are out of our control, we can only focus on the things we CAN control? We don't outright deny luck/chance/life, because that's irrational, but it still doesn't matter in how we approach our goals. We work hard, because that's the best way to get to as close to where we want to be.

Also, I have to say, even though Blacbird and I get into some heated debates about his general attitude here at AW, in this thread, I totally get where he's coming from. It's kind of like THE SECRET. THE SECRET was an evil book in my mind because yes, while it postulated that if you just put out positive energy good things will happen and gosh that's a nice idea, it therefore also postulated that if anything bad happened to a person, well it must be your fault for not putting out the positive energy seeing as anyone can get positive stuff if they only do that.

Same with this thread, only the reverse. If you work hard and have talent you will be rewarded. Therefore anyone who isn't rewarded hasn't worked hard enough and/or lacks talent. Really? Really? I just don't believe people in this thread truly believe that.

scarletpeaches
09-27-2011, 01:05 PM
...in this thread, I totally get where he's coming from.I don't. I think his poor-me-you're-all-snobs attitude to those who have met with success stinks. It reeks of jealousy and bitterness.
Therefore anyone who isn't rewarded hasn't worked hard enough and/or lacks talent. Really? Really? I just don't believe people in this thread truly believe that.I personally don't see anything wrong with that attitude and given what's been said about the published -- accusations of snobbery included -- I'm not surprised that attitude exists, if it does, though it seems to me more like supposition on behalf of the unpublished ones who are looking for someone to blame for their lack of success.

Soccer Mom
09-27-2011, 05:11 PM
Oh good grief. Enough with the slappy hands. RYFW and all that. I think this will end our semi-annual nature/nuture, talent/luck debate.