Beta for YA Punk Urban Fantasy

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 19, 2011

Hi everyone!

I'm looking for betas for my YA punk urban fantasy, The Road to Pieces. The entire thing is 99,000 words but if you only want to read half or several chapters I'm open to that to!

Pitch is:

"Fifteen-year-old Amanda Javeaux spends her free time running life’s red lights—sharing ice cream cones with demon boys and climbing barbed wire fences in the middle of the night. Ever since her demon-slayer mother took her twin sister away, Amanda hasn’t had anything to live for except another night to throw her life away.

Until she finds the Downside, a demon netherworld fueled by strobe lights and secrets. Here, Amanda is about to find answers at a price she’s not sure she wants to pay. After all, there’s only one rule in the Downside: There are no rules.

In a journey full of blind dives of faith, wavering alliances, and a demonic mosh pit, Amanda is thrown together with an angry young angel who runs a fight club in the school parking lot, a slayer prodigy who can’t forget how her demon-slaying agency killed her boyfriend, and the demon boy Amanda’s afraid to love. Together, they’ll fight to untangle their connected pasts, and defy the fate that was set for them."

First chapter available here.

At the moment, I'm not open for swapping more than 3 or so chapters, but if you beta for me I will DEFINITELY remember you and owe you a favor back (to be fulfilled around December due to a very hard semester at school).

Reply to this thread or PM me if interested! (I'm looking for anything I can get--general opinions, were you hooked the entire time, weaknesses in plot, likable/unlikable characters, or any other feedback you're comfortable with.)

Thanks ahead of time to everyone for helping out! You guys are great

MacAllister · Sep 19, 2011

Erm...have you read Stacia Kane's Downside trilogy, by any chance? I'm not suggesting you're copying Stacia's worldbuilding, or anything like that -- but you've got a lot of similar elements, from your description, so the name then just sort of pushes it over the edge.

With a well-established and well-reviewed urban-fantasy Downside already in print, you probably want to strongly consider a different name in your own world-building, for the sake of being more original and looking more professional when you start subbing.

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 19, 2011

Hi MacAllister,

Oh wow. I have actually never heard of another "Downside" series until now, although after reading an excerpt of Ms. Kane's stuff I can assure you that apart from name and being urban fantasies, our two Downsides share nothing in common--as her series is about a ghost-hunter and my series is about a borderline personality teenage girl.

However, I will take that point into consideration and probably change the name of my parallel dimension.

Thanks for pointing it out.

MacAllister · Sep 20, 2011

Uh huh.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough, because I was trying to be gentle.

Urban fantasy largely set in gritty punk-esque neighborhood and seedy clubs.
Deeply troubled and self-destructive young anti-hero female MC.
Urban fantasy specifically set largely in an invented place called Downside.
(There's quite a lot more, but those three points are more than enough, all by themselves.)

Please allow me to be a bit more direct and specific:

Your linked excerpt doesn't just read as just derivative, especially if you don't change those key elements now that you've been publicly informed of the similarities. It reads like Buffy fanfic set in Stacia Kane's Downside -- like a blatant and shameless swipe of someone else's ideas and work. Whether or not it's intentional is completely irrelevant. We all understand that ideas can occur to more than one person simultaneously, and it's not indicative of intent. But someone else got there first, so now you really and truly do need to make some changes to your own work.

Your own excerpts look and sound like outright swipes to me, and I know full well I'm not the only one because I've been getting mail about this post.

I totally get that you're a young writer without much experience. Let me help a bit, okay? You're not in "I will take that point into consideration and probably change the name" territory -- you're in "oh crap, I didn't mean to do that, and I totally didn't intend trademark and copyright infringement, please don't sue me and tell all the acquiring editors you know that I'm an unoriginal asshole trying to use someone else's success to my own benefit" territory -- or else you look like you're trying to pass off half-cooked fanfic as original work, and that's arguably even worse. I asked a good friend of mine who does expert-witness testimony in copyright-infringement lawsuits to take a look, too, to be sure I wasn't overreacting -- and her opinion was equally strong.

If you're going to file off the serial numbers of a manuscript that's largely derivative (whether you intended it to be or not really doesn't matter, I'm afraid) from what someone else has done, and you're going to seek publication? Then you need to do a much more thorough job of clean-up.

And to be blunt, there are a lot of authors that have done just that. It's all well and good, as long as you clean up after yourself. I know several stories about authors writing manuscripts inspired by various other worlds (LotR or Harry Potter or Star Trek or Dune or Star Wars or . . . ) and filing the serial numbers off what's essentially fanfic, to publish a manuscript -- but those writers generally do an extremely thorough and clean-cut job of it, so no harm/no foul.

In my own humble opinion, there's quite frankly more than enough similarities right now for Stacia's publisher to legally halt the publication of your manuscript, should you find a publisher, unless you make some dramatic changes to your own work, before seeking publication.

LIBGirl · Sep 20, 2011

MacAllister said:
Uh huh.

Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough, because I was trying to be gentle.

Urban fantasy largely set in gritty punk-esque neighborhood and seedy clubs.
Deeply troubled and self-destructive young anti-hero female MC.
Urban fantasy specifically set largely in an invented place called Downside.
(There's quite a lot more, but those three points are more than enough, all by themselves.)

And to be blunt, there are a lot of authors that have done just that. It's all well and good, as long as you clean up after yourself. I know several stories about authors writing manuscripts inspired by various other worlds (LotR or Harry Potter or Star Trek or Dune or Star Wars or . . . ) and filing the serial numbers off what's essentially fanfic, to publish a manuscript -- but those writers generally do an extremely thorough and clean-cut job of it, so no harm/no foul.

In my own humble opinion, there's quite frankly more than enough similarities right now for Stacia's publisher to legally halt the publication of your manuscript, should you find a publisher, unless you make some dramatic changes to your own work, before seeking publication.

What? is that how copyright works? I thougt I could write a story called Barry Trotter, put the story in a world of wizzards and witches and even name additional characters Ermine Cranger. I could put them at a Hogwash school of wizzards and probably sell it to Oribt who'd go ahead and sell 400,000 copies of it. Oh wait, I couldn't do that because someone already did! http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/books/barry-trotter-and-the-unnecessary-sequel-paperback

Deleted member 42 · Sep 20, 2011

LIBGirl said:
What? That's not how copyright works at all. I could write a story called Barry Trotter, put the story in a world of wizzards and witches and even name additional characters Ermine Cranger.

Bullshit.

First, you don't seem to understand the potential safe harbor offered by parody and satire—neither of which apply in this case (I refer you to Mattel v. MCA Records).

All that has to be done is to prove that a work is derivative.

A rights holder doesn't have to prove intent, by the way. Just that the secondary work is derivative.

The OP is on very shaky grounds for a number of reasons going beyond look and feel. Bluntly, it's derivative in the extreme.

Speaking as someone who has been an expert witness on copyright cases, using the basic concepts and language of a prior work renders it derivative—which is all that needs to be proven.

Were I Stacia Kane or her publisher, I'd be looking at other potential infringing acts.

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 20, 2011

Against the plagiarism accusation:
I just looked up the publication date for Ms. Kane's first novel in the Downside Trilogy, which happened to be on May 27, 2010. MacAllister and anyone else who feels strongly about this accusation, please PM me with an email address and I will forward you the email I sent to myself when I came up with TRTP's plot. The book, coincidentally at that time, was still titled "Downside of Heart." The exact date I emailed myself the basic plot arc for TRTP was on June 8, 2010. While I realize that is very close to May 27, you have to take into consideration that I had to first finish the outline first before emailing it to myself, which would've taken a few weeks at least. That being said, even if you disregard that, it is highly unlikely that I rushed to the store on the day that Ms. Kane's book came out, read the whole thing, and came up with a totally similar story within 1 week. Especially since that same week I happened to be taking very heavy 2nd semester finals.

Furthermore, against the plagiarism accusation, 90% of urban fantasies are about troubled females and take place in some sort of alternate universe. First of all, TRTP only features 2 actual scenes in the parallel universe known as "the Downside." "The Downside" is more of a virtual reality where everything that a person sees is an embodiment their worst fear, aka the "downside" of things, which is where I got the name (for example, the main character sees everyone dressed as chained dolls with bloodstained dresses because that's the same way she views her own life). While TRTP is an urban fantasy, I will have to again reiterate that the main plot of the novel is two twins trying to reunite against a backdrop of betrayal/coming to terms with imperfection/breaking free.

All that aside, pointing out that TRTP has some similarities with an already existing series is a very different thing than a blatant accusation of plagiarism. MacAllister, I know that you have more authority on this forum, which is why most readers of this thread will probably side with you, but I will again reiterate that it was completely not my intention for TRTP to bear any similarities to any existing series. I can swear on my life that I had never read Ms. Kane's trilogy before, and anyone who still wants to further this accusation can PM your email and I will forward you the exact email I sent myself (with the date) when I came up with TRTP's idea. Furthermore, if you still don't believe and want to browse the manuscript for yourself past the first 4 pages to find your own proof, please PM me.

That aside, what I'm taking out of this brawl is that you pointed out how there is already an existing series that has a "Downside" in it, and I should probably address that overlap.

In terms of the way these comments were presented, the strongest insult that can be delivered to a writer is accusing them of intellectual theft, which I feel was probably not the most sensitive way to approach this topic. Pointing out that similarities exist is very different than a personal attack, or talking down to someone and calling them inexperienced when you do not even know that person.

When I started this thread, I was looking for beta readers (which I'm probably not going to get anymore), but it's come down to a point of me defending my personal integrity.

In terms of the name "The Downside," point is taken. I see where the problems could arise. I'm going to address the problem.

In terms of the accusations, I want to clear this up: I really have never read Ms. Kane's Downside Trilogy. I see why you would think this based on the way I phrased my pitch, but our plots aside from taking place in a gritty city (which most urban fantasies do) and featuring troubles females (which most urban fantasies also do) and a place called the Downside (which I have already explained where I came up with the term) are very different. I can send you my MS if you need further proof, or the original email when I came up with the idea with the exact date. Just PM me with your email address.

Or ask any questions. I want to clear up all attachments that have been made between my name and plagiarism. Please voice any doubt/concern you have. I want to get this cleaned up.

Polenth · Sep 20, 2011

It's a bad idea to dismiss advice on the basis of the tone used to deliver it. This isn't about clearing your name or whether people could have worded it better... it's about sorting out the book. You don't have to like the people who pointed it out, or the way they pointed it out, but it is in your best interests to read a copy of the other book in question so you can be doubly sure yours will sound unique.

It may be your summary is the issue rather than your book (though it wouldn't hurt to find a beta who has read Stacia's book). If so, there's less for you to sort out. But it still needs sorting. The last thing you want is for people to read the summary and think it's a ripoff. Most people won't bother to tell you if they think that. They'll simply move on without a word.

It's the book you need to focus on. Not you, your innocence/guilt or whether people could have said it in a more sensitive manner.

MacAllister · Sep 20, 2011

Let me be very plain, biggerbrowneyes. I haven't accused you of plagiarism or anything else. I said repeatedly that intent is not the point.

I get that you don't care for my tone, and I wasn't sensitive and kind enough for your liking -- the fact is, I really was trying to do you a favor and save you some grief. I was gentle about it, to start with, and you totally blew me off -- so I put my concerns in rather stronger terms.

What you do with the information isn't my problem.

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 20, 2011

I have not dismissed the advice. In fact, I have stated several times that I appreciate people pointing it out and am addressing the issue.

MacAllister, I see that you've edited your post from its earlier form, so I guess in the current visible context the direct personal attack no longer applies. However, as I also stated, that's really besides the point.

To get to the bottom of it, TRTP is about a girl with an eating disorder who's not considered physically/mentally fit enough to be a demon-slayer and lives in the shadow of her superhero mother. I'm a little bit confused as to where the Buffy part came in, or any of the other accusations I'm getting besides the name "the Downside." Ninety percent of TRTP takes place in New York City, so maybe it's my summary, but I'm definitely sifting through to find your guys's basis. Maybe it's the voice or maybe it's my summary.

I wasn't trying to start a flame war with this thread, although that seems to be what it's come down to. And I'm definitely taking your guys's advice (I mentioned that several times already). However, "advice," however harshly it was phrased, was NOT all I got earlier today.

MacAllister · Sep 20, 2011

Actually, no. I didn't edit anything substantive from my post. I added a few sentences, and changed some punctuation -- but I haven't edited it since 3:05 this afternoon, either -- well before your 4:20ish response.

I never made a personal attack.

I'll be happy to post every single time-stamped version right here, if that's what you need. But this whole conversation is getting more surreal by the minute.

Nonny · Sep 20, 2011

"It reads like Buffy fanfic set in Stacia Kane's Downside -- like a blatant and shameless swipe of someone else's ideas and work."

I really don't see how that's not, if not an attack, at least aggressive and suggesting that she's stealing someone else's idea. You even say as much in the direct quote. Insinuating that someone is stealing -- no, really, thinking about it, I don't see in what world that's not a personal attack, whether you meant it as such or not. I don't think you can reasonably expect someone to not be defensive when you make a statement like this.

FWIW, I've read the Downside books. I don't see the connection besides an unfortunate coincidence of names. Everything else she has described is very standard of urban fantasy -- grimdark setting, bad boys, tough anti-heroine, tumultuous romance. I'm sorry, but I've lost track of how many urban fantasies follow that general pattern. I find it hard to believe they're all copycatting each other.

MacAllister · Sep 20, 2011

Fair enough.

I can be blunt to the point of harshness, sometimes. Generally it's because I want very much to be certain that I'm being excruciatingly clear.

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 20, 2011

Yeah, I think in the crux of the moment I probably overreacted as well.

Anyways, thanks for pointing out the similarities/pitfalls of the similarities, MacAllister. I acknowledge that Ms. Kane beat me to certain aspects of my worldbuilding. I was asked by an agent to do a rewrite anyways, so I'll address what you've pointed out in the new version.

Thanks.

MacAllister · Sep 20, 2011

It's always a huge bummer to find out that something in a manuscript you love isn't going to work, not because it's broken in and of itself, but because someone else got there first -- there's an old thread here somewhere from a guy who found out he'd very nearly written The Da Vinci Code again, completely independent of Dan Brown or the movie. IIRC, he ended up scrapping the whole book, and starting over on something else. At least you've got a pretty easy fix, and you'll be fine.

I do apologize for unnecessary roughness, though. Pax?

biggerbrowneyes · Sep 20, 2011

Pax back to you.

Well, looks like I've got some work to do on my manuscript. Onward!

Beta for YA Punk Urban Fantasy

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

LIBGirl

New member, Long time lurker

Deleted member 42

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out

Polenth

Mushroom

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

Nonny

Serve no master but your ambition

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

biggerbrowneyes

figuring it all out