Rules I've seen used that others bash

Not sure who you have as betas, but I've never seen anyone bash the different styles of dialogue tags. The whole point of having different styles is to add variety to the narrative. Using the same style over and over again can get monotonous.

That said, one trend is to cut down on the amount of tags or to use action tags. If it's obvious who's speaking, there's no need for a tag.

I'm not an agent, publisher, professional editor, etc...
Just giving you thoughts that you asked for

Yes, dialogue tags are meant to identify the speaker, and most people will tell you to use as little as possible, and make them as invisible as possible.

My personal thoughts on this? If people reading your work are having issues with it, and it seems to be a consistent critique, consider what they're saying as helpful information.

My thought on why they keep telling you to drop the tag at the beginning of the line? It's more obvious than at the end of the line. The eye and mind catch it more clearly, and it adds louder beats to the cadence of the sentence:

"Give me that," said Beth.
Beth said, "Give me that."

The emphasis shifts from what's being said, to who is saying it, which is probably already known, or can be inferred.

Pick ten books you like in your chosen genre.

Look at their syntax.

There are certain conventions that have become the norm in writing over the years. Brilliant writers can ignore them, even make a style out of ignoring them, but it's a risk that seldom works for us normal folk.

So things like putting dialogue tags in front are unusual. And being unusual, stand out instead of being "invisible" as is the standard format that we see all the time.

It can be distracting, which is not something you want.

Now, if you use them sparingly, there's nothing wrong with that. They can even add a bit of flavor and work quite well. But when they become obtrusive, your book will suffer.

Medievalist said:

Pick ten books you like in your chosen genre.

Look at their syntax.

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This. Any beta reader who says putting dialogue tags anywhere other than the end is 'wrong' is probably not worth having. A good beta reader knows the difference between 'I don't like it' and 'it's wrong'. Someone who says something is wrong when it's really just something they don't like isn't someone you can really trust to be helping you.

M. Scott,
I found your old thread regarding the "said X" vs "X said" thing.

I use "said X" format.

Grabbed 4 nearest books:
One barely had any dialogue tags.
Piers Anthony did several of "X said with a [insert facial expression here].
Kay did mostly "X said" with sprinkles of "said X".
Tartt did 50/50.

M. Scott said:

Another is splitting a sentence.

Example: "Well," Suzie said, "I hate clowns."

Note that in most instances, the second sentence starts lower-cased.

Another example: "So," Suzie said, "clowns hate me too."

Any thoughts on all this? Which is most preferable to the "typical" agent? As for the dialogue tags, I always leave them after now and don't break the norm.

Thanks!

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Just to be nitpicky here--it's not the "second sentence" that is lowercased, it's the "second half of the sentence."

Like I said, a nitpick, but an important one!

I go with TheIt:

I've seen various assortments from new and established authors. I've not been given in-house guidlines over position of tags. I'm not saying it's not done, it just sounds strange. Hmmm. But as a writer, variation takes away the monotomy over if and when you do use them. Do you vary yours?

ab makes a good point,

"So," Susie said, "I hate clowns to."

Take away the tag you have: "So, I hate clowns to." "so" and "I hate clowns" are part of the same clause "So, I hate clowns." As it's all related, anything broken by a speech tag stays lower case: "So," Susie said, "I Hate clowns."

Upper case "So," Susie said. "I hate clowns." comes when the author wants to seperate the 'so' for more dramatic effect:

I love splitting sentences with dialogue tags. I'm sure I do it too much in my first drafts. It's a great way to make the pause between words longer without ellipses or saying "he paused."

Devil Ledbetter said:

I love splitting sentences with dialogue tags. I'm sure I do it too much in my first drafts. It's a great way to make the pause between words longer without ellipses or saying "he paused."

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Me too! Sometimes it just fits the rhythm of the sentence as it's flowing in my head.

I'm pretty sure I've used the tag at the start once or twice, but usually when something like this occurs:

Beth said, 'So, I really hate clowns,' and then dinged Bobo with a frying pan.

I'd not use it there very often as a straight tag. But I wouldn't say 'never'. Sometimes the rhythm will dictate that's where it shoudl go.

Be consistent with whatever rules you use, and I think each of your examples has its place, especially if used consistently.

I think the placement of the tag can (doesn't always, but can) be used to indicate a pause. If the speaker hesitates before speaking, put the tag in front. If he or she pauses after an interjection such as "well," "oh," or other, put the tag there. As for capitalization upon resuming the dialog, look to to where the periods would go if the tag was removed and place accordingly.

I've yet to read a selling writer who doesn't split sentences, nor have I ever heard a rule saying you shouldn't do so, as long as you split it in the right place.

X said at the beginning of a sentence is a stylistic choice, but style matters, and you won't find many successful writers who do this. There are, however, ways around it. The most common is to write something like. X looked out over the audience. "I want to thank you for. . ."

But to also nitpick. No sentence starts out lower case. When you split a sentence, it's still just one sentence.

Anyway, if you read enough novels, especially ones by top writers in any genre, it doesn't take very long to learn how to handle such things.

"Right" or "wrong" isn't the point. Ease of reading is, and so is what the reading public likes. If they don't like you, you can be "right" all day long and still find no takers.

We all done some things this way, and some things that way, but when ninety-nine percent of the pros out there pretty much all do a given thing the same way, well, you're just beating your head against a brick wall if you do it another way.

M. Scott said:

The one most heavily hated is putting the dialogue tag before the line. People get quite fervent when telling me to quit doing that.

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What you've got to remember is that it's just THEIR opinion. There's no rule that says you must do it one way only or whatever. They have a bug up their butt about it, it irks them, so they pressure you to write it in a way that pleases them because you've asked for their opinion.

Have you considered focusing what they're commenting on? If you ask about plot or characters or something else, then they may be less likely to look for nit-picky things.

More than once, I've had the experience of people doing critiques feel like a failure if they can't find something wrong with what they're reading, so they'll focus on whatever nitpicky little niggles they can find that "breaks some rule" and harp on it as your greatest failing as a writer. It can be very detrimental when, in fact, there's no problem at all.

Most importantly, remember that just because someone's opinion objects to something, you are the creator of the work and the final decider of what you do with what you have. If that structure is how you hear the story, then go for it. No book has been rejected because of something as minor as this.

You need better betas. I'm sorry, but that advice you got from them is crap. And pointless! And not really what beta-reading is all about, either--incompetent copy editing is not the goal there.

IceCreamEmpress said:

You need better betas. I'm sorry, but that advice you got from them is crap. And pointless! And not really what beta-reading is all about, either--incompetent copy editing is not the goal there.

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In a situation like that I look less at what the beta said and more at the parts she was complaining about. Especially if I got the same comment from another beta. Dialogue tags should be invisible. If yours are not invisbible then you may have a problem.

leon66a said:

In a situation like that I look less at what the beta said and more at the parts she was complaining about. Especially if I got the same comment from another beta. Dialogue tags should be invisible. If yours are not invisbible then you may have a problem.

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Nice to meet you, hun. I think IceC is debating more against a beta who quote rules that don't really exist. It can be a dangerous game, especially if the author is aspiring and will take to heart what's being said. If anything, like this op has done, checking whether the 'rule' actually applies, is good sense.

Medievalist said:

Pick ten books you like in your chosen genre.

Look at their syntax.

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Best advice. For my case, I've certainly enjoyed the syntax of Michael Connelly's Blood Work and The Lincoln Lawyer series. As some here have said, he relies most on Haller said, but he mixes in the other "hated" styles you mentioned.

Unless all of your beta readers are the sort who demand you change or they're done reading for you, take the advice which fits your work-in-progress and thank them sincerely for all their much-appreciated labors, all of which you carefully consider and use in some way.

I've had several who demand I write exactly their way or the highway. All we can do is thank them and wish them good luck in their writing.

As you're doing, you have to consider your voice, your audience, not theirs.

Bottom line, all of those tags are acceptable. As stated above, they provide variety, and they help you emphasize different things.

If you're getting the same feedback from multiple people, there's likely something there. Read your work aloud. Do the tags work? Try it different ways, if necessary. Also try it without a tag. Maybe you need an action, or maybe you need nothing at all.

leon66a said:

In a situation like that I look less at what the beta said and more at the parts she was complaining about. Especially if I got the same comment from another beta. Dialogue tags should be invisible. If yours are not invisbible then you may have a problem.

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"I found myself noticing your dialogue tags" is a useful beta-reading comment, I agree.

"This is how your dialogue tags should be because it's the rule" isn't an appropriate beta-reading comment (in my opinion) even when the beta reader is correct. When the beta reader is full of sound and fury and signifying nothing, it's doubly bad.

The thing is that you don't know if those rules lawyers really found the dialogue tags off-putting or not working, as readers, or if they were just gleefully blue-pencilling because they wanted to be part of Copy Editor: The Role-Playing Game.

IceCreamEmpress said:

Copy Editor: The Role-Playing Game.

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Oh, I love this!