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Rachel Udin
09-06-2011, 09:38 PM
Are there any Chinese love stories pre-200AD that don't end up tragically? I'd prefer ones with reincarnation/incarnation themes, but I'll take it without, too.

I'd like my characters to fight over it for laughs. I only know two sad ones so far.

Thanks!

Callista Melaney
09-11-2011, 05:11 AM
No reincarnation theme here, but there's a Korean folktale called Kyunwoo and Jiknyo. I know that there is a Chinese version of the same story because I saw it in The Karate Kid (the recent one with Jaden Smith and Jackie Chan).

Here's (http://12010mon78.blogspot.com/2011/03/week4-yooran-kim-chil-seok.html) a blog post that summarizes the Korean version.

I did a bit of googling and found the Chinese version on Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qixi_Festival). I wouldn't necessarily call it a happy ending, but more of a bittersweet one.

Hope it helps!

Rachel Udin
09-11-2011, 12:25 PM
No reincarnation theme here, but there's a Korean folktale called Kyunwoo and Jiknyo. I know that there is a Chinese version of the same story because I saw it in The Karate Kid (the recent one with Jaden Smith and Jackie Chan).

Here's (http://12010mon78.blogspot.com/2011/03/week4-yooran-kim-chil-seok.html) a blog post that summarizes the Korean version.

I did a bit of googling and found the Chinese version on Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qixi_Festival). I wouldn't necessarily call it a happy ending, but more of a bittersweet one.

Hope it helps!
I know that story, still sad.

I'm sketching the argument to be roughly that the MMC (from an old Korean Kingdom) assumes that all Chinese love stories end up sad, especially when involving reincarnation. (He has direct ties to China.)

The FMC argues that he's wrong--there are ones that are happy. She's using an indirect means--she was friends with the late Queen.

This is kind of a half stab at the Asian drama industry, which I know well and I love very much, but since the characters are living in roughly 200AD and before (When they are having the argument) I need examples. I only have the top four and some of them occur too late in the timeline.

http://www.absolutechinatours.com/china-travel/Top-Four-China-Folk-Love-Stories.html

I made up a few for "street plays" which the wife of the couple obsesses over. I can make more up that would seem authentic, but it would be better to have the real deal for recognition purposes.

It's more meta than an easter egg... though I love both a whole lot.

Snitchcat
09-11-2011, 06:27 PM
Pre 200 AD? Which dynasty did you want?

And note: I took a look. Most of the stories I found are written in Chinese, no translations.

Also, your post mentions the "Asian drama industry", but which industry are you targeting? The continent is a wealth of nations and ethnicities. "Asian" doesn't mean "Chinese".

Rachel Udin
09-12-2011, 08:32 AM
Pre 200 AD? Which dynasty did you want?

And note: I took a look. Most of the stories I found are written in Chinese, no translations.

Also, your post mentions the "Asian drama industry", but which industry are you targeting? The continent is a wealth of nations and ethnicities. "Asian" doesn't mean "Chinese".
The whole discussion in the story targets the various ASIAN dramas. As in from India, Korea, Japan, China, and probably will attack anything I can find from other parts of Asia. I'm aware that East Asia is not all of Asia. But China isn't all of Asia either... so I meant it when I said Asian dramas. (India isn't East Asia either...) I consume a lot of international fiction. I would pull in the Philippines, but I don't think I can pull it in... and my Filipino friends are discouraging me from watching more Filipino movies... ('cause they are arguing with me that they suck. XD)

Thailand wasn't really well-settled yet. So I'm skipping that along with Singapore, Laos, Hmong, etc. I would, but the major events happened after the time period I'm looking at.

I know a fair amount of Korean, Japanese and French. I'm picking up some Cantonese and Mandarin too, but not enough to look up something of this depth. Also I'm trying to pick up Hindi to get a feel for it. So I'm doing this as an insider... rather than to point and laugh. Though the majority of the stabs are at Korean culture--'cause I get that luxury.

As for the fact they aren't translated, that's fine. I just need a general run down of the formula: How they met, adversity, how it ended.

Example:
Title: Tangun and Woo Nyo (depends on the version, second name can vary)
Met by: Guy gives bear and tiger garlic and ginger. (variations of this include mugwort).
Bear becomes human.
Ending: Guy marries bear and they have children.

The verdict would be that's a happy ending. Yay. Korean story, BTW. Later Korean stories became more tragic.

As for the list of Dynasties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasties_in_Chinese_history

Anything before 200 AD is fine. (That's before the Eastern Han Dynasty.)

Snitchcat
09-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Just FYR: Cantonese and Mandarin are spoken dialects. Written, the language is "Chinese", split between Traditional and Simplified.

As far as any pre-Han, that's a lot of stories and a huge amount of filtering / research. You may have better luck contacting a university and asking a Chinese professor there about such tales.

Rachel Udin
09-12-2011, 06:19 PM
Just FYR: Cantonese and Mandarin are spoken dialects. Written, the language is "Chinese", split between Traditional and Simplified.

This is under contention by linguists... particularly because of the amount of tones in each, etc.

Traditional tends to be used in Taiwan whereas the mainland uses Cantonese. (Taiwanese is also contended over as being a dialect of Chinese or a language. Though the majority speak Mandarin, and even native Taiwanese have to learn Taiwanese... The line can be blurry at times.)



As far as any pre-Han, that's a lot of stories and a huge amount of filtering / research. You may have better luck contacting a university and asking a Chinese professor there about such tales.


I put on filters: Love stories that end happily, preferably with a reincarnation theme. That means I'm counting on someone say Chinese, or with Chinese folk knowledge, most likely from the mainland that can cue me into ones they liked and know are pre-Han. It's better than getting an obscure one.

Shouldn't be too difficult... since I can do other countries in that way.

Snitchcat
09-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Not sure where you're getting the information from, but the Mainland uses Putonghua (the "other name" for Mandarin -- it's not quite, but is considered interchangeable). About 70% of the population.

Cantonese is used in Guangdong, sometimes in Shenzhen, Zhongshan and neighbouring areas, but almost always in Hong Kong.

There's native Taiwanese, then there's Mandarin ("Taiwanese Chinese" if you will). :)

Written, however, Simplified is used on the Mainland, while Traditional holds sway in HK and Taiwan.

Anyhow, back to topic.

Reason I asked about which dynasty pre-Han is 'cos there are several.

I took another look and it really would be a very good thing to ask the local university's Chinese department to point you to a collection of such stories. Actual written records didn't start until a couple thousand years into China's history; all else was orally passed down.

If you can't contact a university for whatever reason, I recommend searching per dynasty. Not easy, but better than looking for general romance tales. Perhaps "love folklore" within the dynasty you're researching might help.

Little Ming
09-12-2011, 08:53 PM
This is under contention by linguists... particularly because of the amount of tones in each, etc.

I'm not really sure what you mean here, but written Chinese is the same for all dialects (unless you want to count the slang words). Cantonese, Mandarin, Taiwanese all have the same written words, it's how you pronounce the words that makes the dialects different.



Traditional tends to be used in Taiwan whereas the mainland uses Cantonese. (Taiwanese is also contended over as being a dialect of Chinese or a language. Though the majority speak Mandarin, and even native Taiwanese have to learn Taiwanese... The line can be blurry at times.)


I think you're a little confused here.

Traditional v. Simplified = Written Chinese
Mandarin v. Cantonese v. Taiwanese = Spoken dialects

Mainland speaks Mandarin and write in simplified Chinese. (Mainland speakers rarely speak Cantonese, it's not even recognized in government buildings, you're better off speaking English than Cantonese in Beijing.)

Hong Kong speaks Cantonese and writes in Traditional Chinese. (Though there's movement for the people to become more familiar with Mandarin and Simplified)

Taiwan speaks Mandarin and Taiwanese, and write in Traditional Chinese. (AFAIK, Taiwanese is a Chinese dialect. There's argument whether Taiwan is the property of Mainland China, but that's about politics, not linguistics.)


As Snithcat said, Mandarin is also called Putonghua in Mainland China, which translated literally means "Common Language." So lots of politics going on there....

Snitchcat
09-12-2011, 09:16 PM
I'm not really sure what you mean here

Tones, or "pitches", indicates at which pitch you say a word. Think of singing: each note is at a different pitch.

Mandarin / Putonghua officially has 4: flat, rising, valley (dip then rise), and falling.

Cantonese traditionally has 8.5 - 9; it's been simplified to 6 core tones now.

Spoken Chinese is a tonal language; comparatively, it's a 'sung' language.

Written Chinese is ideographic, but it does include particles to indicate pronunciation. Just not for all words.

Anyhow, managed to stray off topic again.

As far as romance stories go, the major, most well-known ones would be from around the Tang dynasty onwards, especially "Dream of Red Mansion", etc.

Anything pre-Han, would go back to the Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties, etc. (but Zhou overlaps into Han). English sources provide archaeological and cultural information, etc., but actual stories, none that I've managed to find.

Try the universities. You might get lucky -- there might be a student or several who'd be willing to help you out. Also, no one said you had to stick to the local universities.

Have you tried to contact the Beijing University? Or the Shanghai one? Did you try to contact the Chinese University of Hong Kong, or Ning Nam? Why not the universities in Singapore or Taiwan?

Matter of fact, how about your local China Town? Surely they have a bookshop and you can talk to the owner / staff? Or even approach one of the older people.

There's more to research than just the Internet. :)

Rachel Udin
09-13-2011, 12:10 AM
Tones, or "pitches", indicates at which pitch you say a word. Think of singing: each note is at a different pitch.

Mandarin / Putonghua officially has 4: flat, rising, valley (dip then rise), and falling.

Cantonese traditionally has 8.5 - 9; it's been simplified to 6 core tones now.

Spoken Chinese is a tonal language; comparatively, it's a 'sung' language.

Written Chinese is ideographic, but it does include particles to indicate pronunciation. Just not for all words.

Anyhow, managed to stray off topic again.

As far as romance stories go, the major, most well-known ones would be from around the Tang dynasty onwards, especially "Dream of Red Mansion", etc.

Anything pre-Han, would go back to the Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties, etc. (but Zhou overlaps into Han). English sources provide archaeological and cultural information, etc., but actual stories, none that I've managed to find.

Try the universities. You might get lucky -- there might be a student or several who'd be willing to help you out. Also, no one said you had to stick to the local universities.

Have you tried to contact the Beijing University? Or the Shanghai one? Did you try to contact the Chinese University of Hong Kong, or Ning Nam? Why not the universities in Singapore or Taiwan?

Matter of fact, how about your local China Town? Surely they have a bookshop and you can talk to the owner / staff? Or even approach one of the older people.

There's more to research than just the Internet. :)
I haven't had much luck with the international universities so far--and I contacted a professor in San Fran that never got back to me. They'd be busy at this time of year now... (The specialist on Gaya (Korea) never wrote back though I had it translated into Korean. Mainly 'cause I can't write deferential well.)

Most of the stories I know in Romance Stories from China are also post Han. It's not a big deal, I can make up something Chinese-ish and play with it to see if it will conform with the typical format. I kind of wanted the popular ones off the top of the head for the recognition by Chinese people. (The Tangun myth, for example, is kind of obscure in Korea.)

BTW, as an aside, part of the problem with classing Mandarin as a language v. Dialect is that the linguists really didn't define language v. dialect well. I should also note that more Taiwanese are likely to call Taiwanese a language v. a dialect. Mainland China tends to disagree heavily and scholars in their childish ways fight over it.

http://www.foreignlanguageblog.com/?p=367

Just putting that out there. But that's going down the linguistics rabbit hole, rather than the love story hole I would like...

Snitchcat
09-13-2011, 10:25 AM
Mandarin hasn't been classed as a language AFAIK; it's known as a dialect over here. It's the name for the Chinese dialect used in Taiwan. The country also has it's own native language, which is Taiwanese, which is different to Chinese.

Putonghua is also a dialect, as is Cantonese, Chiuzhou Hua, Fujian Hua, Hakka Hua, etc.

Again, not sure where your information is coming from.

As far as universities being busy, they don't stop being busy. On the other hand, I've had some luck with various universities when it comes to research. But it does take them a while to respond.

Have you tried China Town?

Rachel Udin
09-13-2011, 08:16 PM
Mandarin hasn't been classed as a language AFAIK; it's known as a dialect over here. It's the name for the Chinese dialect used in Taiwan. The country also has it's own native language, which is Taiwanese, which is different to Chinese.
I tried someone Chinese from Mainland China, came up dry. I found four, two of them are historical, though, so I'm not sure you could say it counts, but none with happy endings, so I think I'm out of luck. =P This makes me beg the question why do 95% of the Chinese love stories end up sad?

Mostly I'm looking for the name recognition when I pull a story up, so obviously it won't work. It's like if I say Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy, someone will recognize it. But if I say something obscure like the Stories of Medea, where she was the main character... that doesn't work so well as an Easter Egg.

I read there was a cultural purge just around the time frame I mentioned, so I wonder if that contributed(with the fact that it's just old).

*shrugs* Go check with the linguists crowd over that. I know there are arguments over it and what defines a dialect, a language or a creole. It's the linguists fighting and I cited a source, though I got a whole bit from a professor of Chinese History (married to a Chinese wife) some years back and again in another college I went to, so apparently the argument is still going.

The Chinese government wants to take Taiwanese (the language as supposed to Mandarin with Taiwanese regional dialect) and call it a dialect of Chinese. Mainland Chinese government also claims Taiwan as part of larger China, while Taiwan disagrees. I class this in the same brand. Again, just reporting.

mgoi sounds nothing like xiexie... which is part of the argument--if a language uses the same writing but speakers can't understand each other, at which point does it become a new language?

Not my particular specialty, but I know the argument exists. If you want to get the technical explanation linguist style, you can ask around.

Snitchcat
09-14-2011, 12:15 AM
As far as the political wranglings on what is and is not a Chinese dialect, I really don't want to know. And no, I'm not taking this up with the linguists, because:

I use Putonghua / Mandarin and Cantonese almost every day. So until I'm told differently, I'll stick with what's being used. The general populace really doesn't care how dialects / languages are defined. If we can communicate, good enough.

Btw, "ng goi" is informal Cantonese; "tse tse" is formal Cantonese, which is similar to Putonghua's "xie xie".

If your story must be pre-Han, then you'll be researching for a long time -- think oral records.

As far as wondering why so many 'love stories' end up tragic, much of the reason lies in the culture and the country's history.

Good luck with your research.

SophiaDreith
08-07-2012, 01:41 PM
To the OP, you don't mention that the story has to be written... TBH, when I read your post the first thing that popped into my head was the Mainland Chinese Drama, Bu Bu Jing Xin (Startling by Each Step) (http://www.viki.com/channels/2978-startling-step-by-step-bu-bu-jing-xin).

It's not pre-200AD, this is set during the Qing Dynasty which(according to Wikipedia) was 1644 to 1912 so that isn't quite what you wanted. However the story is about a modern woman being transported back to said time period and into the body of a girl from there. She falls for a guy(or five) there but does eventually have to go back to the modern day. The last scene of the drama shows the reincarnation of her main squeeze in the modern time. There is a second season in the works that deals with her and the reincarnations of the guys that she loved in the past life.

Again, not 100% what you were looking for but as I looked through the comments, they were more about the languages themselves rather than answering your query(no offence intended) so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.:)

Siri Kirpal
08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I once many years ago watched a Chinese opera called (in English) "The Beauty Bait." It ended happily as I recall. Not sure if the story was around in your timelime, and unfortunately, don't recall the plot, but it did end happily.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Cath
08-08-2012, 01:46 AM
This thread is a year old, folks. Not sure why it was resurrected, but the answer has probably been got by now.

SophiaDreith
08-08-2012, 02:40 AM
This thread is a year old, folks. Not sure why it was resurrected, but the answer has probably been got by now.

Sorry. I was searching for something and stumbled on this thread. I wasn't really paying attention to the dates. My bad.