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senka
09-06-2011, 04:37 AM
I'm asking this as I see it happen so often in various movies/books and I always wonder if this would indeed work or if it is merely unrealistic and impossible.

It is happening all the time that people in various stories put something in another one's drink and, like a few seconds or maybe 1-2 minutes later that person suddenly says someting about feeling strange and immediately falls down to the ground, unconscious.
I'm not talking about poisoning someone, just knocking people out.
As much as I know about such things, drugs would have to stay inside your stomach for a while (I'd say at least 15-30 minutes depending on what you've eaten and when) before there would be any effect at all. Then, but this is just a guess, I'd say this effect won't come all of a sudden, but it should take at least a few minutes of feeling dizzy before the person is indeed knocked out, wouldn't it?

I just want to know this in general, as I thought about using it in a future part of my story, but as this part is just outlined and nothing more I can't give any specific info (and as I think it is not so realistic anyway I didn't bother thinking about details yet). "The reader doesn't care if it is realistic" and such doesn't help, because unfortunately I do care about such things. I couldn't bring myself to write something I know would not be logically working.

PrincessofPersia
09-06-2011, 05:18 AM
I'm asking this as I see it happen so often in various movies/books and I always wonder if this would indeed work or if it is merely unrealistic and impossible.

Very much possible. It happened to two different friends of mine. The first was lucky enough to not be raped, as her friend noticed her acting weird and got her home. The second isn't sure what happened. She went home with someone she knew, but he refused to tell her what they did after she blacked out. She had some anal trauma, so she suspected the worst.

As far as I know, they didn't just drop, but it did make them black out and not have any memory or control over what they were doing. And they did both pass out at some point. Different drugs are absorbed into the bloodstream over different periods of time. But yeah. Definitely longer than a few minutes.

blackrose602
09-06-2011, 11:29 AM
Part of my response to a recent thread on roofies:

Anyway, at first it just seemed like I got drunk really fast. I have those cocktails frequently, and I know my usual tolerance...I wasn't even halfway through my first and I felt like I'd had about six. I staggered from the dance floor over to a couch. Then the spinning kicked in. Apparently it was vertigo, or at least that's what my best friend with Meniere's disease, which causes frequent vertigo, said. It was like the entire club was one of those Gravitron rides, and I was clinging to the couch trying not to spin off.

Then I started going in and out of consciousness. I remember waking up to a bouncer yelling at me about sleeping in the club. Then I woke up again with one of my friends stroking my hair and gently shaking me. He made me drink some water. Then I woke up again in the backseat of the car on the way home. Then not again until sometime the next afternoon, still in my club clothes, on a friend's couch.

I don't know the exact timeline, but I'd estimate 15-20 minutes before the drunk feeling set in, another 30 or so before I started blacking out, and roughly 10 hours before regaining consciousness. So yeah, definitely more than they show in the movies--but not long enough to actually do anything before the effects started.

senka
09-06-2011, 02:04 PM
Very much possible. It happened to two different friends of mine. The first was lucky enough to not be raped, as her friend noticed her acting weird and got her home. The second isn't sure what happened. She went home with someone she knew, but he refused to tell her what they did after she blacked out. She had some anal trauma, so she suspected the worst.

As far as I know, they didn't just drop, but it did make them black out and not have any memory or control over what they were doing. And they did both pass out at some point. Different drugs are absorbed into the bloodstream over different periods of time. But yeah. Definitely longer than a few minutes.

Well, according to what you told, it's rather not possible, at least not they way I meant. I guess my question doesn't make this clear.
I know it is possible people get drugged and then raped or whatever, but I was specifically talking about this:

1. Person drinking it, then
2. sudden feeling of "something wrong" within a few seconds or at most a few minutes, which lasts itself not longer than a few seconds until -
3. BAM - person unconscious, sleeping.

Whenever I see it, it bugs me as I honestly doubt there is any substance with which that would be possible. If there was, it would be nice (for me as a writer, not for any victims, I guess) but for everything I know, I don't think there is.

With what I read about roofies, those often do not make a person really unconscious, or at least not immediately, many act like real drunk but still sit or even walk around and talk and everything. I've read stories like the one blackrose told (good thing you were there with some friends!) but I've also read about people not blacking out at all, just acting weird and not remembering next day, so I guess it depends on the dose.

However, for that kind of thing I'd say there still is a lot someone could do before blacking out, especially if you move away from the typical "girl in a club" situation where alcohol plus loud music plus flashing lights and everything might make it more difficult to realize what's going on and react. I've seen a movie where someone found his mother in law annoying so she gave her something that caused her to suddenly fall from her chair, sleeping, when they were sitting at the dinner table. Or someone not wanting to go somewhere, so his friends, who thought he really should, put something into his coffee and he was dead to the world within 2 minutes so they could drag him to the car and drive off. Such a scenario would not be possible if it takes more than these few seconds or minutes until the person is knocked out, I guess.
I mean, if, say, the person someone tries to drug with roofies is a drug dealing criminal sitting in a little bar, gun in his pocket. He hasn't been drinking, or not much, and knows about such things enough to get what's going on. He would still have the time to, whatever, freak out, shoot everyone around, right?
Or someone registering some ominous substance kicking in could call the police/his friends/walk away/lock himself into the bathroom so no one would get near until he's back to normal... and so on.

The point is, for me, that someone obviously aware of having been drugged and not happy about it would at least try to do something about it in a realistic situation, not stand there, say "oh, I feel strange" and then drop down to the ground after thirty seconds - or is there any possibility for this I do not know of?

Becca_H
09-06-2011, 06:54 PM
1. Person drinking it, then
2. sudden feeling of "something wrong" within a few seconds or at most a few minutes, which lasts itself not longer than a few seconds until -
3. BAM - person unconscious, sleeping.

This is a non-expert answer, so don't rely on this too much.

I think it heavily depends on the dosage or the person as to whether they black out or merely just feel strange.

Someone I know had her drink spiked, then followed the aggressor out the club with his arm around her. The bouncer knew her, so knew this wasn't right. She woke up on the bouncer's sofa the next day with no recollection of what happened.

I'm guessing that a higher dosage of whatever these people use would make someone unconscious, but they don't do this, because they want these girls to leave pseudo-voluntarily. Someone dropping to the floor, or at least falling asleep, is going to attract a responsible bouncer's attention - or at least a friend or responsible stranger.

blackrose602
09-06-2011, 07:58 PM
I suppose the person could *try* to do something about it, depending on the circumstances. From both personal experience and what I know of how the substances affect the brain, I'd buy it if:

1. He/she had previous experience with the drugs, so knew what to expect.

2. He/she had not been drinking. At all. From what I understand, even a slight amount of alcohol, even in a person with high tolerance, magnifies the effects dramatically.

3. Person is VERY familiar with the layout of the place--disorientation starts quickly

4. Person is VERY familiar with whatever they're planning to use--no brand-new cell phone they're still figuring out, borrowed gun, whatever. Again, disorientation means he/she would have to rely on muscle memory

I'm not an expert, but those are my impressions. You have *some* ability to react in the first few minutes, but cognitive skills, coordination and balance decline very rapidly, so you have to rely on instinct.

backslashbaby
09-06-2011, 08:55 PM
There are levels of being conscious, and I think the reason most drugged girls don't do something other than just say they feel strange is because the effects of the drug make anything else very hard to do. I can't see why a drug dealing criminal wouldn't have the same reaction.

I was drugged, most probably through my cola, and I was unconscious but walking around, a lot like when I had oral surgery and could keep my mouth open for the doctor yet remembered nothing.

Don't let the fact that the folks don't fall to the floor make you think they can be rational is what I'm saying :)

I forget how long I was drinking my cola, but whatever it was hit very fast when it did hit.

I'd think if you gave a large enough dose of something, the effects could be pretty severe pretty quickly.

Mutive
09-06-2011, 09:34 PM
I'm going to add that it usually takes a bit of time for ingested drugs to take effect. (Probably >1 or 2 minutes) Injected and inhaled, drugs, though are often processed by the body within seconds. So your timing may be a bit off.

PrincessofPersia
09-06-2011, 11:28 PM
Well, according to what you told, it's rather not possible, at least not they way I meant. I guess my question doesn't make this clear.

Did you read past the part you bolded? If you had, you'd see that I said it's definitely possible to drug someone's drink, but it's not likely that they'd just drop after a couple minutes. It pays to not stop reading after the first sentence.

Tsu Dho Nimh
09-07-2011, 05:35 AM
Even the classic chloral hydrate takes about 15 minutes.

senka
09-08-2011, 09:11 PM
Did you read past the part you bolded? If you had, you'd see that I said it's definitely possible to drug someone's drink, but it's not likely that they'd just drop after a couple minutes. It pays to not stop reading after the first sentence.

Of course I read it. No reason to get angry.
I asked if what I described more clearly in my second post (see the described step 1., 2., 3.) was possible. The first sentence of your answer was "Very much possible".
Then you described a scenario that was different from the scenario I had asked for (being drugged, walking around, not just falling down).
Everything I said (or meant to say) was that I guess this was my fault as I might not have pointed out what I wanted to know clearly enough. I meant no offense.

There were plenty of questions about drugs in drinks on this board before, which I read, so I did not really need the info about how it usually happens when someone gets roofied and so on... this is just more work for you people, so I tried to point that out.

And I guess I should have chosen a better thread title...:Shrug:

DrZoidberg
09-09-2011, 09:55 PM
Here's factoid about roofies a cop friend told me. Licenced European roofies are always dyed blue so that drinks look green tinged if dropped in. I'm not sure about USA. Pirate roofies from Asia are not dyed.

James D. Macdonald
09-10-2011, 01:30 AM
The classic "Mickey Finn" is chloral hydrate. Check the onset time and effects of that drug.

With any drug: Dosage, route of administration, and body mass of the person receiving it, will all be variables that change onset time. Different people react in different ways to the same drug ... which is why anesthesiologists, pharmacists, and doctors in general make the big bucks.