Israeli rabbi pairs gays to lesbians

It's not like it's a new thing. Meh. Consenting adults. Not for me though, thanks.

That's just wronnnnnnnnnng.

Isn't this like third-party rape?

Think about it. You've got a gay man and a lesbian being told to get married and have children. Neither of them wants to have sex with each other. But the rabbi is telling them to have children. So they're being forced into sex by an outside source.

Someone call the Police!

Cliff Face said:

Isn't this like third-party rape?

Think about it. You've got a gay man and a lesbian being told to get married and have children. Neither of them wants to have sex with each other. But the rabbi is telling them to have children. So they're being forced into sex by an outside source.

Someone call the Police!

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No, it's not like that.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2087274,00.html

Look: This is an Orthodox Jew marrying consenting adult Orthodox Jews to each other.

They come to him.

The imperative to have children, and to be a parent, is enormous for Orthodox Jews. This is a culture that still has arranged marriages. More often than not the hetero couple barely know each other.

I wouldn't want such a relationship, but if it works for them, it's not my business.

It's not anything new; nor is it unknown among gentiles.

The lavender marriage lives on?

friendlyhobo said:

The lavender marriage lives on?

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Pretty much.

I know of both Jewish and non-Jewish couples with similar arrangements.

It's less common now, of course, but I've the generation just before mine, and earlier generations, found this kind of marriage was one way of coping.

Okay, I was a little wrong then.

I just kind of got the impression that it was more coercion than free will.

I don't see the problem here. I mean, it's voluntary and consentual, right? They're doing it through choice and it's not being forced on anyone.

Gay people want to be parents the same way straight people do.

Medievalist said:

Pretty much.

I know of both Jewish and non-Jewish couples with similar arrangements.

It's less common now, of course, but I've the generation just before mine, and earlier generations, found this kind of marriage was one way of coping.

Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, Lisa, I for one would be very interested in how Jewish Orthodoxy treats the subject of homosexuality. I'm sure it's different between sects, but in general, how is homosexuality perceived and/or "dealt with"? Is it a big deal?

I'm woefully ignorant on the subject.

The Orthodox community (not all of them, but a good chunk) just this year affirmed a document regarding the halfway-decent treatment of LGBT people. Let me see if I can find it. Here! http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com/ If you don't know, Halakha refers to Jewish law, as laid down in scripture and endlessly debated on by smart rabbi types. Before this letter, things were pretty generally crap for gay Orthodox jews. I don't think it was possible to be a happy and well-treated gay Orthodox jew within that community. I know many queer Orthodox folk who now belong to Conservative or Reform communities because they are so much more welcoming.

We have a lesbian friend who was married really really young in an ultra-orthodox community (there are more than one). When she came out as queer and wanted a divorce, the community 100% abandoned her/kicked her out. She lives in another country now and is involved in a queer-welcoming, mostly-queer Reform congregation. It's a great community BUT it's not exactly her own religion (kinda a little bit like if you were a Catholic, but then you were taken in by Protestants, or something--same deity but different worship).

It depends a lot on the local orthodox community, but it's not great anywhere.

It's worse for men than women, but it's pretty horrible.

There are very strictly defined roles in orthodox judaism, not only for the sexes but for the stages of life, and everything is about the next the family.

For someone who has spent his or her whole life in the orthodox community—and that generally means their kin are all in the community, the kids they went to school with, everybody they know, are part of the community, being severed is maybe worse than being dead.

I can see this kind of arrangement being a straw for a drowning couple.

San Francisco supervisor and mayoral candidate Bevan Dufty and his long time friend, Rebecca Goldfader, a lesbian, have a similar type of relationship. I don't think they actually married, but have a daughter and are raising her together, although they both have same sex interests outside of the relationship, by mutual consent.

Dufty is interesting. His father, William Dufty, was a journalist and prolific ghostwriter who co-authored Lady Sings the Blues, Billy Holiday's autobiography. Billy Holiday became Bevan's godmother.

Thanks for your guys' responses, Medi and Kitty

This is interesting stuff. I only really have one Orthodox Jewish friend IRL, but I'm not quite sure about the degree of his orthodoxy. I do know that he strictly observes traditional Shabbat and its trappings, is an active member of Jewish communities both in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Israel, speaks Hebrew and Yiddish fluently, and pretty much knows most rabbis in all major Chinese cities by name. But at the same time, he's a pretty modern guy, being a big force in the entertainment industry in Asia, etc.

Anywho, he's a good friend of mine and has no issue with my being gay. In fact, he revels in it and we have a great time making fun of each other. As he's an otherwise rather strict observer of his religion, I'm curious if the non-issue of my homosexuality is an exception to his beliefs, or if it's more of a result of his oft-quoted assertion that Jewish folk don't actively push their religion and/or beliefs on others, and don't really get involved in other people's shit, etc. I suppose I should probably ask him Hahah.

Anywho, are there specific mentions of homosexuality in the Halakha? I know that in Christianity, folks often use the Bible as the basis of their discrimination against gays, but generally their interpretation of the verses in question are faulty (as Medi has pointed out on many different occasions here on AW ). Is that same phenomenon true of the Halakha (or Talmud in general, rather), or are there actual express prohibitions of homosexuality therein?

And sorry for asking so many questions