Is Noir/Supernatural overdone?

Darkshore · Aug 18, 2011

I've had this novel idea brewing in my head for the longest time. The guy would be a P.I. type and end up getting involved with the supernatural world, but I'm afraid that this would be tossed aside as if it were a copy of the others already out there. The Dresden Files and The Garrett P.I. Series being too of the big ones. Am I worrying over nothing? If I change it up and add my own spin and voice to this could it still work? I'd just rather not put all the work into it for it to inevitably be seen as a clone. What do you guys think? Are there any ideas you'd love to write but feel like they are to overdone already?

dangerousbill · Aug 18, 2011

Darkshore said:
Am I worrying over nothing? If I change it up and add my own spin and voice to this could it still work?

Yes. Yes.

All novels are clones of something. So are all movies. Your voice, your characters, your setting, your subplots, will make it distinct.

Little Ming · Aug 18, 2011

Don't forget Anita Blake, Nightside and the Vampire Files. :tongue

Seriously, everything's been done to death. Just put your own spin on it, make it unique, and write it well.

Darkshore · Aug 18, 2011

Thanks. I suppose I'm just a bit more wary of this because I have personally read a lot of noir/supernatural, but I suppose that's why it feels natural for me to write it.

pandabot · Aug 19, 2011

If people stop writing it because it's been done, I might eventually run out of noir/supernatural books to read. And then what will I do?

Polenth · Aug 19, 2011

Urban fantasy is still big at the moment, so I don't think you need to worry about it being overdone.

Stijn Hommes · Aug 19, 2011

Genres can't be overdone. After a couple of decades SF is still going strong. What makes it appealing to the reader is your execution of the idea.

Anne Lyle · Aug 19, 2011

Little Ming said:
Don't forget Anita Blake, Nightside and the Vampire Files.

Seriously, everything's been done to death. Just put your own spin on it, make it unique, and write it well.

And Mike Carey's UF/horror series about an exorcist, and Ben Aaronovitch's police procedural UF series, both set in London...

It won't hurt to see what's already out there, just to make sure you aren't "copying" something too closely, but after that, you just have to trust to luck. Mark Chadbourn's latest Elizabethan spy fantasy, The Scar-Crow Men, is set the exact same year (1593) as my debut novel and even has some story similarities - but it's pure coincidence. I had already signed the contract on mine, a month before his book came out...

Darkshore · Aug 19, 2011

Anne Lyle said:
And Mike Carey's UF/horror series about an exorcist, and Ben Aaronovitch's police procedural UF series, both set in London...

It won't hurt to see what's already out there, just to make sure you aren't "copying" something too closely, but after that, you just have to trust to luck. Mark Chadbourn's latest Elizabethan spy fantasy, The Scar-Crow Men, is set the exact same year (1593) as my debut novel and even has some story similarities - but it's pure coincidence. I had already signed the contract on mine, a month before his book came out...

This is what I'd be worried about in truth. I mean I've read this genre forever and the great authors there will and have no doubt rubbed off on me a bit. I just hope that I don't some how end up "copying" when I have no intention to do so.

Anne Lyle · Aug 19, 2011

Yes, there's always the risk of accidental plagiarism. I guess what you need is well-read beta-readers who might spot similarities you miss. Though I think that as long as you avoid obvious similarities, you should be fine.

For example, there's more than one medieval mystery series featuring a monk/nun, and there's nothing to stop anyone starting a new one - but publishers might look askance if it's set in, say, Shrewsbury during the 1130s*!

* Brother Cadfael

J. Tanner · Aug 19, 2011

Accidental plagiarism isn't much of a risk. The idea is not copyrighted, only the full context of the execution. So you'd need to see huge swaths of plot or character matching up, or nearly identical paragraphs. Theme or concept similarity or even identicality aren't enough.

You could start with a synopsis on the back of a book (a theme park with dinosaurs!), write your own book on that idea and it's not plagiarism.

But readers will probably complain it's a knock-off or derivative.

quicklime · Aug 19, 2011

they're still churning out boy wizard and vamp-whiner books, although market saturation has raised the bar.

write what you're writing, esp. in such a large arena, and just write the best book you can.

n3onkn1ght · Aug 19, 2011

It's only overdone if you do it badly.

I mean, hell, it's based on a film aesthetic from the 1940s. Something tells me it's here to stay.

Anne Lyle · Aug 19, 2011

J. Tanner said:
Accidental plagiarism isn't much of a risk. .
...
But readers will probably complain it's a knock-off or derivative.

I didn't mean literal plagiarism, more the situation where you think an idea is your own when really it's the plot of a book you read when you were a kid. Which is fine if it's something generic, but not so much if it's "OMG, what if you could clone dinosaurs from fossilised mosquito stomach contents, and put them in a safari park!?!"

n3onkn1ght · Aug 19, 2011

Anne Lyle said:
OMG, what if you could clone dinosaurs from fossilised mosquito stomach contents, and put them in a safari park!?!"

But Billy and the Clone-a-saurus was such a great book....!

Cyia · Aug 19, 2011

Darkshore said:
I've had this novel idea brewing in my head for the longest time. The guy would be a P.I. type and end up getting involved with the supernatural world, but I'm afraid that this would be tossed aside as if it were a copy of the others already out there. The Dresden Files and The Garrett P.I. Series being too of the big ones. Am I worrying over nothing? If I change it up and add my own spin and voice to this could it still work?

You left out Blood Ties and the Vampire Files (The former getting points for the PI being female, the latter for the PI being a vampire.)

With a YA spin there's Paranormalcy or even Shade/Shift

Every idea is both overdone and underdone depending on the execution. And even if you get a fresh spin, someone is still going to say "that's just like..."

Darkshore · Aug 19, 2011

Cyia said:
You left out Blood Ties and the Vampire Files (The former getting points for the PI being female, the latter for the PI being a vampire.)

With a YA spin there's Paranormalcy or even Shade/Shift

Every idea is both overdone and underdone depending on the execution. And even if you get a fresh spin, someone is still going to say "that's just like..."

I suppose your right, but I'm having a blast writing this. It's the first thing I've written that I haven't had to force myself to keep writing. I'll just try not to worry about it until it's finished. If anything it will be a fun experience. I've just purposely tried not to write this novel in fear of it being "just like so and so", but I've finally given in.

Stacia Kane · Aug 20, 2011

Darkshore said:
I've had this novel idea brewing in my head for the longest time. The guy would be a P.I. type and end up getting involved with the supernatural world, but I'm afraid that this would be tossed aside as if it were a copy of the others already out there. The Dresden Files and The Garrett P.I. Series being too of the big ones. Am I worrying over nothing? If I change it up and add my own spin and voice to this could it still work? I'd just rather not put all the work into it for it to inevitably be seen as a clone. What do you guys think? Are there any ideas you'd love to write but feel like they are to overdone already?

For UF with male MCs there's also out very own Kari Stewart (whose second Jesse James Dawson novel A SHOT IN THE DARK is right up on the top of the screen next to my UNHOLY GHOSTS at this particular moment!) and our very own John Levitt with his Dog Days novels...

Don't worry about "overdone." Make it your own. Write the story and characters YOU want to write, and make them special because they're YOURS.

rugcat · Aug 20, 2011

The field is getting crowded, though, and it's getting harder to break in.

Still, a good book will almost always find a home, no matter the genre or how many people are in it.

Margarita Skies · Aug 21, 2011

No offense meant, but to be honest, if supernatural / noir is really overdone, then I'm screwed because that's what I'm writing right now.

dangerousbill said:
Yes. Yes.

All novels are clones of something. So are all movies. Your voice, your characters, your setting, your subplots, will make it distinct.

QFT!

Cathy C · Aug 21, 2011

Nah. The field isn't getting crowded at all. That implies that books are like laundry soap. Readers don't say, "Well, I read Butcher and Elrod, so I simply WON'T read Clamp or Kane. I have my favorite brand and I'm sticking to it."

Readers read. They read tons, and go from author to author like a dog in a meat shop. Write it well and the readers will find you. They'll sniff you out and become a beloved fan.

Anne Lyle · Aug 21, 2011

Very true. The majority of readers like "more of the same only different", which is why that's what publishers churn out as their bread and butter. As long as your book isn't an exact clone of something else, the more the merrier!

Darkshore · Aug 21, 2011

Thanks for all the reassurance everyone

. I'm flying through this novel though. I expect to have it finished within a month or two at the latest. (Finished being first-draft of course)

PeteDutcher · Aug 22, 2011

dangerousbill said:
Yes. Yes.

All novels are clones of something. So are all movies. Your voice, your characters, your setting, your subplots, will make it distinct.

I'm actually working on something that, as far as I can learn, has not been done yet. With luck it will create an entirely new genre.

I mostly agree with your statement though. I just think it IS possible to create entirely new concepts, it's just difficult and extremely rare.

Update:
I realize also that creating something entirely new may make a book hard to get published. I may end up having to self-publish the project I'm currently working on because of that, but I'll give it a try with publishers first.

Darkshore · Aug 22, 2011

PeteDutcher said:
I'm actually working on something that, as far as I can learn, has not been done yet. With luck it will create an entirely new genre.

I mostly agree with your statement though. I just think it IS possible to create entirely new concepts, it's just difficult and extremely rare.

Update:
I realize also that creating something entirely new may make a book hard to get published. I may end up having to self-publish the project I'm currently working on because of that, but I'll give it a try with publishers first.

Interesting. What is this new concept or genre?

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