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How much "real time" info should I include here...

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JennieRose8

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My female MC (18) is interested in her young teacher (24)...he is trying to keep his distance, but his younger brother has decided to start dating her.

She does like the younger brother as well, but most her fasincation lies with the teacher. However, she's being cautious cause she's no dummy, yadda, yadda (sorry for the slip-shod explanation- just giving a touch of background to what's going on here).

My question is this- while she's dating the younger brother, is it accpetable to brush over their scenes together, stressing important parts, or should their scenes be more up-front. Since it's sort of a love triangle, is their time equally as important as the teacher's and student's? (Because ultimately something does bloom between them. If you want to know more about that, I have a thread on YA titled "Student/Teacher cliches." It's not going to be as bad as you've probably imagined- meaning there's no sex or inappropriate contact. And it's a story with a very different point than has most likely crossed your mind. Think about this..My "tagline" is this: "Falling for a Teacher? Sometimes what we really love is what we're not seeing." ).

I just feel like including too much information about the brother and student is dragging the story down, when there are so many things that still need to transpire.
 
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quicklime

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if you want a triangle, you can't only draw 2 sides and gloss over the third, or you have something else, correct?

I'm not sure you can paint the brother relationship as having any impact and gloss over it, either.
 

Sarah Madara

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I am painfully familiar with this problem, and I think it boils down to a balance between focusing the story where you want it and making sure that you aren't skimping on character development.

I can't tell you whether the younger brother relationship deserves as much "screen time" as the teacher one. That's an artistic choice based on your own vision of what you want to accomplish.

In my (limited, non-expert) experience, if you feel that some scenes are important to the plot or to understanding a character but they are dragging the story down, it may be because you haven't gone deep enough into the characters involved - in this case, probably the younger brother's character and your MC's conflicted feelings about him.

To me, a girl dating the younger brother of the guy she really likes sounds like a goldmine of conflict within the relationship. Before glossing over it, just make sure you aren't cheating the reader out of a deeper understanding of both characters.
 

Maryn

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(Because ultimately something does bloom between them. If you want to know more about that, I have a thread on YA titled "Student/Teacher cliches." It's not going to be as bad as you've probably imagined).
Actually, yeah, it is, because as lawyers and teachers and school administrators and parents have been telling you, this is not acceptable, not because he's older but because he is a teacher and she is his student.

He will be fired for a romantic relationship with a student, even if it is not sexual. He should be. It's an abuse of his authority as a teacher. There are no circumstances under which this is okay. None.

But you don't seem to want to acknowledge that your very premise is unsound and likely to constitute a deal breaker when and if you attempt to market this. You just keep finding complications and asking opinions when the concept is fatally flawed.

Maryn, shaking her head
 

JennieRose8

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Actually, yeah, it is, because as lawyers and teachers and school administrators and parents have been telling you, this is not acceptable, not because he's older but because he is a teacher and she is his student.

He will be fired for a romantic relationship with a student, even if it is not sexual. He should be. It's an abuse of his authority as a teacher. There are no circumstances under which this is okay. None.

But you don't seem to want to acknowledge that your very premise is unsound and likely to constitute a deal breaker when and if you attempt to market this. You just keep finding complications and asking opinions when the concept is fatally flawed.

Maryn, shaking her head


Did my question have anything to do with anything you've said here? (Making a passing comment in parenthesis does not constitute a question. The main question has to do with "screen time" for my male mc's.) You've given your opinion here- nothing more. You have no real clue where my story is leading and I refuse to debate this further. Have a good one.
 
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JennieRose8

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I am painfully familiar with this problem, and I think it boils down to a balance between focusing the story where you want it and making sure that you aren't skimping on character development.

I can't tell you whether the younger brother relationship deserves as much "screen time" as the teacher one. That's an artistic choice based on your own vision of what you want to accomplish.

In my (limited, non-expert) experience, if you feel that some scenes are important to the plot or to understanding a character but they are dragging the story down, it may be because you haven't gone deep enough into the characters involved - in this case, probably the younger brother's character and your MC's conflicted feelings about him.

To me, a girl dating the younger brother of the guy she really likes sounds like a goldmine of conflict within the relationship. Before glossing over it, just make sure you aren't cheating the reader out of a deeper understanding of both characters.


All excellent points. It's just difficult to decide if I'm dragging the story down with certain scenes or helping it along. I think that at least their initial (full) date deserves a good amount of "Screen time."
 

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But you don't seem to want to acknowledge that your very premise is unsound and likely to constitute a deal breaker when and if you attempt to market this. You just keep finding complications and asking opinions when the concept is fatally flawed.

The premise seems to be ripe with conflict. And people making immoral decisions is a foundation of fiction.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the specific market this is intended for from another discussion and perhaps that's what you're commenting about. But well written doomed romances certainly aren't unmarketable in general.
 

JennieRose8

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The premise seems to be ripe with conflict. And people making immoral decisions is a foundation of fiction.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the specific market this is intended for from another discussion and perhaps that's what you're commenting about. But well written doomed romances certainly aren't unmarketable in general.

THANK YOU!!!!
 

Sarah Madara

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All excellent points. It's just difficult to decide if I'm dragging the story down with certain scenes or helping it along. I think that at least their initial (full) date deserves a good amount of "Screen time."
Nothing against the first date, but I suspect real conflict comes later, when she's starting to feel trapped with a guy who isn't THE ONE, or when he's starting to suspect that she isn't really into him, or when she is starting to get into him but is still also into his brother, or whatever. Plenty of crappy relationship decisions that just need a plot framework to highlight them.
 

JennieRose8

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Nothing against the first date, but I suspect real conflict comes later, when she's starting to feel trapped with a guy who isn't THE ONE, or when he's starting to suspect that she isn't really into him, or when she is starting to get into him but is still also into his brother, or whatever. Plenty of crappy relationship decisions that just need a plot framework to highlight them.


Funny thing is...this has all sort of already happened. What I think needs to be done is that she will TRY to hang up her desire for the teacher, knowing it's stupid to keep pining over him. And allow herself to be drawn by the younger brother. Only other things will happen to cause her to want the teacher more...that's where the big conflict lies

Thanks for your input on the first date. I'm thinking I should begin it at the end of the day and give a run-down of what's already taken place. I've been falling into my old, choppy writing style trying to get this stuff out - serious smoothing out is needed.
 

Stacia Kane

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Funny thing is...this has all sort of already happened. What I think needs to be done is that she will TRY to hang up her desire for the teacher, knowing it's stupid to keep pining over him. And allow herself to be drawn by the younger brother. Only other things will happen to cause her to want the teacher more...that's where the big conflict lies.


If that's the case, then IMO the only moments of the dates you need to show are the ones where she's conflicted; i.e. a specific conflict is set up, like he wants to kiss her or wants them to be exclusive or whatever.

If the triangle is a major part of the story, give it major time. If it's minor, only give it what time it needs to move the story forward.


Thanks for your input on the first date. I'm thinking I should begin it at the end of the day and give a run-down of what's already taken place. I've been falling into my old, choppy writing style trying to get this stuff out - serious smoothing out is needed.


That's what edits are for. Just write it, and worry about how much time etc, later, when you can look back, check your pacing etc., and see if you feel too much time was given to events that have no story impact.
 

JennieRose8

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If that's the case, then IMO the only moments of the dates you need to show are the ones where she's conflicted; i.e. a specific conflict is set up, like he wants to kiss her or wants them to be exclusive or whatever.

If the triangle is a major part of the story, give it major time. If it's minor, only give it what time it needs to move the story forward.


/QUOTE]


That's the thing- it's not really minor...I can't really call it major, either. Because of different things that happen that draw the student closer to the teacher. I suppose I'll just write it out and see what happens. Outlines never do me any good. lol
 

Inkblot

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Actually, yeah, it is, because as lawyers and teachers and school administrators and parents have been telling you, this is not acceptable, not because he's older but because he is a teacher and she is his student.

He will be fired for a romantic relationship with a student, even if it is not sexual. He should be. It's an abuse of his authority as a teacher. There are no circumstances under which this is okay. None.

But you don't seem to want to acknowledge that your very premise is unsound and likely to constitute a deal breaker when and if you attempt to market this. You just keep finding complications and asking opinions when the concept is fatally flawed.

Maryn, shaking her head

Stories about unacceptable relationships get published all the time. Ever hear of Lolita?
 

Stacia Kane

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If that's the case, then IMO the only moments of the dates you need to show are the ones where she's conflicted; i.e. a specific conflict is set up, like he wants to kiss her or wants them to be exclusive or whatever.

If the triangle is a major part of the story, give it major time. If it's minor, only give it what time it needs to move the story forward.


That's the thing- it's not really minor...I can't really call it major, either. Because of different things that happen that draw the student closer to the teacher. I suppose I'll just write it out and see what happens. Outlines never do me any good. lol


My point wasn't that I think it's major or minor, my point was to give it an amount of space/time proportionate to its importance in the book. (And I don't outline either, and didn't suggest you do so, so...?)

You're welcome, by the way.
 
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Polenth

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(Because ultimately something does bloom between them. If you want to know more about that, I have a thread on YA titled "Student/Teacher cliches." It's not going to be as bad as you've probably imagined).

You didn't ask for this advice, but it's why you're getting a certain amount of hostility, so I think it's advice you need. There have been hints of this in your other threads, and you're doing it here too...

If people are troubled by the power imbalance, they will not find the book cute, sexy or romantic. They might be interested in a story that shows the power imbalance and problems, but they won't be looking for a cute romance with a happily-ever-after. You basically keep telling people who find it squicky that they won't when it's your book, and it won't be what they think and the age gap isn't so big which'll make it different.

By all means ask for help when you need it, but when people say "wow, that's creepy", accept that they know their own preferences. It will be as bad as they're imagining.
 

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Stories about unacceptable relationships get published all the time. Ever hear of Lolita?
Sure. Lolita exemplifies post-modern cynicism writ large. The pornography trials in North America alone are illustrative of that. Lolita got published, and reprinted, and reprinted again, and it's in the canon -- but it certainly didn't sell in blockbuster numbers -- and Nabokov was utterly clear that Humbert Humbert was an awful and squicky creep -- to be viewed with revulsion and perhaps pity, sure -- but he's not an anti-hero; Humbert is just plain icky.
 
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Inkblot

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I would agree that a book for a teen audience would be a hard sell with an "inappropriate" relationship. But I wasn't aware that anything was off-limits for books aimed at adults.
 

J. Tanner

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Ah yes. This subject aimed at YA traditional publishers specifically would be almost certainly a non-starter.

I had a friend who was a YA writer who was very enthusiastic about pushing a certain story of mine at the YA market. And then the discussion delved a bit deeper into certain bad decisions at the core of my main character's arc and she changed her mind. She said her publishers almost certainly wouldn't accept it after all without fundamentally breaking the amorality that made the story tick. So despite young characters it was a fundamentally adult story.

Lucky now I extended that benefit of the doubt to Maryn. :p
 
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JennieRose8

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Ah yes. This subject aimed at YA traditional publishers specifically would be almost certainly a non-starter.

I had a friend who was a YA writer who was very enthusiastic about pushing a certain story of mine at the YA market. And then the discussion delved a bit deeper into certain bad decisions at the core of my main character's arc and she changed her mind. She said her publishers almost certainly wouldn't accept it after all without fundamentally breaking the amorality that made the story tick. So despite young characters it was a fundamentally adult story.

Lucky now I extended that benefit of the doubt to Maryn. :p

The thing is, I'm not really marketing this story - officially - to anyone. I'm posting it on my blog currently for reasons I don't care to discuss here, but I will say - people should be nice because they never know what someone is going through. That's not aimed at you. You've been respectful and I appreciate that.


Also I'd like to point out that my tagline is this: "Falling for a Teacher? Sometimes what we really love is what we're not seeing." That's a major hint there. It's not what some would expect.

Have a good night.

Jen
 
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JennieRose8

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I would agree that a book for a teen audience would be a hard sell with an "inappropriate" relationship. But I wasn't aware that anything was off-limits for books aimed at adults.


As I pointed out to someone else, I'm not officially marketing this story to anyone, though I've tried to figure out where it might belong if I DO decide to market it. When all is said and done, it will positively influence young women, so I don't know...but it's not really YA-ish throughout. The story starts out - and for a good portion of the "novel"(if one could call it that)- with the girl in her senior year in high school but steadily morphs into a romance.

Actually, there is some romance between the female MC and the teacher's younger brother... and the teacher and an older woman. But certain things continue to draw the student and teacher together. That doesn't mean they wind up smooching and carrying on in the middle of the school year (LOL). It means that they are drawn closer until after graduation, some things may take place. Over the course of a year or two, maybe more. I haven't exactly decided how things are going to play out but I do have a grasp of the major points I wish to drive home and how it should be written to maintain plenty of respect (though for some, it will never reach the level of respect they expect- lol. That's them. Others are enjoying this story, so...no sweat). My characters are people, however, and prone to make mistakes. How they deal with those mistakes should be the main focus and not the fact that they slipped up. IMO.
 
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Dr.Gonzo

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I'd only skim if that would make sense within the confines of the story and of how the character feels about the relationship. If your character isn't really interested in this guy, maybe a bit indifferent, then do it that way, because that's how it would read. Put it this way, say I haven't seen a friend in a while and we get talking about relationships, and all he does is talk about an ex whilst skimming over the details of his current.... Guess what I'm going to think? He's still into his ex and the current is possibly just a distraction.

You can't stop a reader from reading betwen the lines, but the lines we read between are the ones you give us.
 

JennieRose8

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I'd only skim if that would make sense within the confines of the story and of how the character feels about the relationship. If your character isn't really interested in this guy, maybe a bit indifferent, then do it that way, because that's how it would read. Put it this way, say I haven't seen a friend in a while and we get talking about relationships, and all he does is talk about an ex whilst skimming over the details of his current.... Guess what I'm going to think? He's still into his ex and the current is possibly just a distraction.

You can't stop a reader from reading betwen the lines, but the lines we read between are the ones you give us.


Great tips. Thanks for your input. :)
 

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The thing is, I'm not really marketing this story - officially - to anyone.

Cool. Then my comment does not apply to you. :)

I'm not officially marketing this story to anyone, though I've tried to figure out where it might belong if I DO decide to market it.

You mentioned publishing it on your blog. That means you've already eliminated your chance to market it to traditional publishers as your First Serial Rights are gone. Even small press e-book publishers want first rights. So your likely only remaining option will be self-pub and in such cases there are no category concerns anyway.
 

JennieRose8

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Cool. Then my comment does not apply to you. :)



You mentioned publishing it on your blog. That means you've already eliminated your chance to market it to traditional publishers as your First Serial Rights are gone. Even small press e-book publishers want first rights. So your likely only remaining option will be self-pub and in such cases there are no category concerns anyway.

Yeah, I figured I'd wind up self-publishing if at all.
 

JennieRose8

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You didn't ask for this advice, but it's why you're getting a certain amount of hostility, so I think it's advice you need. There have been hints of this in your other threads, and you're doing it here too...

If people are troubled by the power imbalance, they will not find the book cute, sexy or romantic. They might be interested in a story that shows the power imbalance and problems, but they won't be looking for a cute romance with a happily-ever-after. You basically keep telling people who find it squicky that they won't when it's your book, and it won't be what they think and the age gap isn't so big which'll make it different.

By all means ask for help when you need it, but when people say "wow, that's creepy", accept that they know their own preferences. It will be as bad as they're imagining.

Hey...you honestly want to know what I think is going on here? Internet miscommunication. I'm not trying to force people to see my book as "cute" cause basically it's not. LOL The female MC struggles quite a bit- much heartache involved here.

Also, I'm not trying to tell people they can't see a student/teacher relationship as creepy. I understand that's a very engrained mindset in our society. But that's just it. It's our society. In reality, is there anything wrong with a young man and a young woman (yes, within a certain age bracket) falling love, especially where the one in the position of power does nothing (at least consciously) to abuse that power? Is there something wrong with two people forming a strong bond through difficult life circumstances and through faith?

"I" think not. That's ONE point I'm hoping people will take away when and if they read my work.

No doubt it is wrong for a student and teacher to sleep together or purposely pursue a relationship before that student graduates. If some people still find it odd after graduation, then they're entitled to their opinion but it does happen, and I certainly don't plan on side-swiping the possible issues that will arise with that, either.

So that's just me giving my opinion on the matter- that's not me trying to force anyone to agree with me. Seems there's been tons of misunderstanding in regards to my motives and I think part of the blame falls on me because at times I don't thoroughly explain myself (other times I think people haven't thoroughly read my already given replies). How well I explain can depend on how I am addressed on the issue. If I feel like someone will be negative no matter what I say, I don't feel it's worth my time to expound a whole lot. They've just got their minds made up. *shrug*

The other problem is I've got a lot going on here- two kids, one on the way, lots of prep for school, trying to find time to write (I usually have to do the heavy stuff in the wee hours of the morning), and so I reply to some posts in a rather slip-shod manner because I'm on the go. There are times, like now, when things are peaceful and I can focus more. Hence a better reply has been given. ;)

Thanks for your kind input. I didn't quite realize that people thought I was trying to force them to like it- I just think it's unfair for someone to judge it when they haven't read it or seen where I'm going with it. They may read the whole story and still walk away feeling a bit creepy, but hopefully with a good bit of food for thought.

When I say things like "it's not as bad you think," I mean it's not some low-life novel with no point. I weave multiple themes into all of my plots, which takes plenty of concentration, so if I feel I'm being ridiculed when no one has taken the time to read my stuff, I can get a bit snippy. :) Anyone would feel put off after putting hours into their work, only to have it blasted without any foundation. The problem is, you'd have to read a large portion of my stories to really see where I'm leading. On one page, you might think I'm dangling close to the edge and form all sorts of harsh judgments against me, when ten pages later you'll realize why I allowed certain things to happen.

I'm not talking about general critique here ( in terms of harshly judging my writing- I'll be the first to admit there's still room for improvement), either. I'm talking specifically about the main points of my story and what I'm hoping my readers will walk away with.

Does that make sense? Maybe I explained more than I needed to...but I sorta felt like I needed to.

Thanks again.

Jen
 
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