Feel like writing a -blank- character means I'm expressing my end-all opinion on -blank- people?

Candystar · Aug 13, 2011

(I'm new so forgive me if this is not the right forum or if this has already been discussed at length somewhere)

I've found this problem cropping up a lot in my writing life, and I was wondering if other people feel it too... that if you write a character who is, say, gay, and that person happens to have a certain personality, that people will think you're saying ALL people who are gay are like that?

Or like... in one of my stories there is a mother and a daughter who both struggle with depression, a "weak-willed" sort of nature.. they give up on things very easily. And I fear that people will assume I'm saying that all women have this tendency. In another of my stories, there are two close female friends, and one of them develops intense feelings for her friend. She sometimes takes advantage of situations to be closer to her... and I worry that it would seem like I'm perpetuating the idea that if you change in front of a gay friend they're going to peep at you, or something.

I feel like my characters need to somehow represent a perfect version of their "group" or else someone will claim that I'm saying that group is the way my character is. I guess I spent too long in college classes hearing teachers say that this or that author judged the poor, or women, or white people, or whatever because of the way their characters are portrayed.

People are always discussing at length that some author is doing -whatever- people group wrong because their character from that people group is twisted, or dies horribly. I see blog posts about this kind of thing all the time... I saw a post just a little while ago about how in a teen tv show, a girl lost her virginity and then the guy broke her heart, and it was perpetuating the idea that female sexuality is bad. :/ No, sometimes that happens. It doesn't mean it ALWAYS does.

I dunno. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you feel this in your own writing? This compulsion to not just write an interesting character who has something interesting happen to them, but that you have to somehow "do right" by the ENTIRE COMMUNITY in one single character? I don't just mean not making them a stereotype... I mean their choices have to be the "right" choices or else you're somehow making a point that that group does bad things...

This is too long. I'll stop now. Hopefully I made enough sense?

Caitlin Black · Aug 13, 2011

I have worried about this myself. And every time I think about it, I'm reminded of what several people on this website have said to me before.

"You can't please everyone."

It's as simple (and horrible) as that. No matter what you write, you'll offend someone, you'll make someone bored, you'll make someone angry, you'll make someone fall in love, you'll make someone laugh, etc.

So I console myself with the thought that the best I can do is to just write a character I like (or at least find enjoyably unlikeable) who is hopefully unique, maybe challenging, and just get on with it.

And also it might be a small consolation to keep in mind that if you do manage to come up with a perfect X character, someone from Y group will be offended anyway, or maybe people who are X themselves will feel like they aren't good enough and that it's an unrealistic standard to live up to, or *insert one of many thousands of objections you might get*.

I think a key issue that we both share is that we actually care what people think of us. It's endearing, but constricting.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject. I say just write what you want to write, and try not to care when people start trashing you for something you did or did not intend. (Dangerous advice, of course. If someone who really was intending to be hurtful followed that advice, it'd be a bad thing. So people who intend to be jerks? Ignore what I just said. Don't write, say or do anything until I give you further advice. It's for your own good.

)

Parametric · Aug 13, 2011

The simple solution is to have a lot of characters from that group. Then the one character who is weak, or stupid, or evil, doesn't seem like a condemnation of the whole group.

Candystar · Aug 13, 2011

Parametric said:
The simple solution is to have a lot of characters from that group. Then the one character who is weak, or stupid, or evil, doesn't seem like a condemnation of the whole group.

That seems like it would be difficult to manage, unless you intentionally wrote about people in that group, and ONLY that group. If you write a hodgepodge of different people, like I feel that I do, and you maybe have 2 or 3 characters from one group across all your writing... I mean I guess there would be a problem if they ALL were weak or stupid or whatever. Hmm. I suppose even if you don't write that group OFTEN, you can still have your handful of characters from that group be different enough from each other... well, they SHOULD be different from each other or you should probably rethink what you're doing. Haha.

Hmm. Stuff to think about, I guess.

areteus · Aug 13, 2011

Writers get this a lot. There is a small minority out there who seem to think that 'because John Doe writes about gay serial killers he must be homophobic'. Joss Whedon and the writers of the new Battlestar Galactica got a lot of accusations of being chauvinistic from feminists because of their portrayal of certain characters when it is obvious to the majority that they are not writing 'a single truth about a certain group based on thier own prejudices' but merely creating interesting characters. If you are writing characters with all your own opinions and prejudices then you are merely creating Mary Sue's and not true characters.

The majority will generally accept your characterisation as a valid one. They may not like it but they will accept that this is your character and not an opinion. What you do need to be careful of are cliches (i.e. writing with the assumption that all gay men are camp, I know for a fact many groups hate stereotyping and love it when a writer avoids it) and potentially controversial issues. Now the latter can be a bonus if used right in marketing - a lot of novels with controversy in them get their authors screen time and this has been the case ever since DH Lawrence and possibly before that - but it may also mean your publisher might be leery of picking it up in the first place.

And you can have more than one character in that group easily enough. They don't need to be major characters, just occasional walk on cameos. For example, your camp gay man might go to a gay bar and there he meets lots of other characters, all gay men but all with different personalities which can be picked out in short dialogue and description. Or, your lazy Mother and daughter have a couple of friends or relatives who are also female who come round to help look after them and are not at all lazy.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · Aug 13, 2011

Candystar said:
... in one of my stories there is a mother and a daughter who both struggle with depression, a "weak-willed" sort of nature.. they give up on things very easily. And I fear that people will assume I'm saying that all women have this tendency.

I'm not quite sure I understand the dilemma. These character traits seem to me obvious shortcomings. Are you portraying them as shortcomings or as natural and normal? If the former (i.e., these traits set them apart from the majority of women), then I would suggest you are solving the problem before it begins; if the latter, I think you should rethink your characterizations.

Of course, you could always have a strong-willed female psychologist come by and tell them to buck up.
:sarcasm

Bartholomew · Aug 13, 2011

When or if someone accuses you of this:

1.) Point.
2.) Laugh.
3.) Keep writing.

frimble3 · Aug 13, 2011

Candystar said:
That seems like it would be difficult to manage, unless you intentionally wrote about people in that group, and ONLY that group. If you write a hodgepodge of different people, like I feel that I do, and you maybe have 2 or 3 characters from one group across all your writing... I mean I guess there would be a problem if they ALL were weak or stupid or whatever. Hmm. I suppose even if you don't write that group OFTEN, you can still have your handful of characters from that group be different enough from each other... well, they SHOULD be different from each other or you should probably rethink what you're doing. Haha.

Bingo. As long as every time we pick up one of your stories, the only 'X' in the group is always 'Y'ing, you're good.
If the only reason you show a cheerleader is so that she can personify 'Mean Girl', it gets old. Keep to 'what this person is like' and not 'this group'.

DancingMaenid · Aug 14, 2011

This can be a tough situation. Ideally, we should be able to have characters from any group who are complex individuals and not just representations of that group. But because minorities aren't always depicted as often in fiction, and because a lot of those depictions are traditionally stereotyped or negative, characters will stand out and there's some pressure to make them representative, to create the most positive depictions we can.

My advice:

1) I think if your character is well-rounded and three-dimensional, you have less risk of them coming across poorly. Almost anything can work well when it comes to characterization as long as the character comes across as a believable and relatable individual.

2) It may not hurt to be familiar with some of the common stereotypes and tropes that people are annoyed with. For example, there's some negative history attached to LGBT villains (or villains who can be "read" as LGBT). This doesn't mean you can never write a good gay villain, but knowing the stereotypes can help you avoid having your character read that way. I'm working on a story right now about lesbian demons, and though my characters aren't villains, I've been keeping this in mind since I don't want it to look at all like I'm equating lesbianism with evilness.

3) Like others have mentioned, writing more than just one gay character can be good. Even if they're not all in the same story.

4) You can't please everyone, and what may bother someone can be very individual. And sometimes when you're part of the group in question, there are certain types of stories and characters you just get tired of or can't stand, no matter how they're written. For example, it's really hard for me to read stories involving homophobia. But not everyone is me, and there are a lot of great stories out there that deal with it.

Celia Cyanide · Aug 15, 2011

I think this can be very difficult. No one should read a book and say, "the author is saying that all gay people are like this, because this gay character is this way." But it can sometimes be more complicated than that, and the idea of stereotyping is much bigger than the story itself.

Let me give you an example. I once read a book called The Cinema of Isolation: A History of The Physically Handicapped in Film. The author offered ample evidence that males who are physically handicapped have been demonized in movies, while females were infantilized. He gave examples that dated back to the silent film era.

Now take a look at Darth Vader. He is physically handicapped, and he is evil. His "evilness" is somewhat related to his handicap. Was George Lucas trying to say that all physically handicapped men are evil? Of course not. But this character was criticized because he fits a stereotype that had been around in film for nearly a century.

My advice to you would be that if you are writing a gay character, do research. The Celluloid Closet is a good documentary about the history of gay people in film. I am sure some of us who are more knowledgeable about literature can give you some advice about that research. (I am more of a film person.) I think it is important to know about the history of how gay people have been portrayed. Then in your writing, you can be aware of those stereotypes, and it can help you keep the characters more well rounded. You will never be immune from that kind of criticism. But I think it is always good to know.

Corinne Duyvis · Aug 16, 2011

I think what's important here is to know the stereotypes that go with the group you're writing about. If you make a bisexual character sleep around and cheat on their SO, that doesn't mean you're saying that all bisexual people are like that -- but it does play into some exceedingly tiring and hurtful tropes. If that's the only bi character in your book, then yes, a lot of people familiar with bi stereotypes might be turned off. That's not because they get off on criticizing you. It's not because they think you're a bad person, or you must automatically be prejudiced somehow. It's because it's frustrating and painful to come across that same trope over and over again, regardless of the author's intent.

So do you have to make your minority characters perfect? No. But you should be aware of the effect it might have on your audience. When authors consciously write stereotypes and proceed to demand that people ignore that part of their work because their intentions were good... I give them the side eye. It's what's on the page that counts.

It shouldn't be too hard to do one or more of the following:

1. Make the character well-rounded. Show a reason for their flaw that has nothing to do with "well, it's because they're a member of X group".
2. Have multiple characters from that group, and make them different.
3. Make your character flawed in a way that doesn't play into nasty stereotypes. There's a middle ground between "stereotypically flawed" and "perfect".

Celia Cyanide · Aug 16, 2011

Excellent post, Corrine. That is a lot like what I was trying to say. If you know about the stereotypes, it can help you understand why some people might be turned off, and help you create better characters.

Gale Haut · Aug 16, 2011

To the OP, I would hope anyone who takes the time to read and understand what you've written would recognize whether you have written a character or a generalization. As long as you know the difference, you should be fine.

Candystar · Aug 16, 2011

I guess that I was worried not so much that my characters were stereotypes, or would seem to be stereotypes... but that if they were negative in any way, it would be difficult.

In one of my stories, featuring a lesbian couple whose situations in life prevent them from being together, they both die. One in childbirth, the other just of old age but it's pointed out that she was sad and lonely. I told my story idea to a friend, who went off about how all gay characters die in books/tv. :/ My characters didn't die because they were gay. One of them had a hard life because she was gay and her father intended for her to marry a man, but the other lesbian characters have lives that are a range of difficulties and it's completely separate from their orientation. Two minor characters fall in love and run away together and are blissfully happy forever haha... But my friend (someone who normally gives me candy-coated opinions on my writing that are good on my ego hahaha!) was offended by it. I guess that's just the "some people are bound to be offended" side of it? I feel like it's unrealistic to pretend that people's sexual orientation never matters, because in some situations it ends up mattering A LOT. I dunno.

I do care too much about what people think of my writing. This is true, and something I need to work on, haha...

Corinne Duyvis · Aug 17, 2011

But it's not about them being offended, or anyone thinking you killed them because they're gay. It's about being gay, and reading a book, and seeing people like you -- which happens all too rarely to begin with -- and then sighing upon seeing the same thing they've seen over and over and over again. Gay people don't get happy endings very often.

It's like any other cliché. There's nothing wrong with a cliché taken on its own... but nothing exists in a vacuum. After the hundredth time, even the best-executed cliché will feel familiar and worn. So even if the storylines/characters you write are essential to the story, it's going to recall familiar tropes that people will respond to. You can't divorce your work from what's come before.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't write about what you want to write about. It doesn't mean you should let the rest of the world dictate your story. It doesn't mean you can never kill off gay characters. It just means that you have to be aware of how people will react to it, and to not dismiss those people as looking to be offended or simply being difficult. They're being honest about their reactions, and those reactions are valid.

DancingMaenid · Aug 17, 2011

I agree with Corrine. I think she's said most of what I can say.

Like I alluded to in my first post, sometimes it's not just about the execution of individual stories but just being tired of the overall trend. Your friend is right that there's a long tradition of stories about gay characters ending tragically, and some people just don't have it in them to read/watch yet another story like that. Like Corrine says, that doesn't mean you can't write that story, or that it's wrong to write it, but it doesn't mean the reactions some people will have are invalid. Their discomfort doesn't necessarily mean they think you're a bad or offensive writer, either.

areteus · Aug 17, 2011

I think it is spurious logic to say that 'you killed off a lesbian' when said lesbian died of natural causes of old age. It's a cliche that gay people get beaten up by homophobes or die of AIDS or something else directly related to their lifestyle (though in Neil Gaiman's The Kindly Ones, the lesbian who dies of AIDS did not get HIV through sex but through a kidney transplant and one character does make the obvious assumption which I think is an attempt to subvert the cliche). Dying by being hit by a car or of old age should be seen as 'could happen to anyone' and therefore totally non-judgemental.

Though I am always concerned by the way it is always old people who seem to die of old age. I suspect it may be ageist. It's almost certainly a cliche

Anne Lyle · Aug 17, 2011

Corinne Duyvis said:
If you make a bisexual character sleep around and cheat on their SO, that doesn't mean you're saying that all bisexual people are like that -- but it does play into some exceedingly tiring and hurtful tropes.

I worry about this a little with my bisexual protagonist. He has a romantic attachment to the FMC (and vice versa), but because of the sexual mores of the era, they are not having a physical relationship. Hence he does sleep around, as often as not with other men. Some might see this as cheating - I see it as perfectly understandable male behaviour in the context of the era

I intend for them to eventually sort things out between them, at which point he will be faithful to her, but I guess not all readers will stick around that long...

ETA: the reason he sleeps around is because he doesn't really want to be with anyone else, but a guy has needs, you know

Fruitbat · Aug 17, 2011

I get annoyed with the idea that when writing fiction I am responsible for any public service announcement type messages at all, whether sexual orientation, race, or "healthy sex" in erotic scenes. I don't want that role. What I'd worry about more than offending someone is boring them, because stereotype is cliche. JMHO.

Corinne Duyvis · Aug 17, 2011

areteus said:
I think it is spurious logic to say that 'you killed off a lesbian' when said lesbian died of natural causes of old age. It's a cliche that gay people get beaten up by homophobes or die of AIDS or something else directly related to their lifestyle (though in Neil Gaiman's The Kindly Ones, the lesbian who dies of AIDS did not get HIV through sex but through a kidney transplant and one character does make the obvious assumption which I think is an attempt to subvert the cliche). Dying by being hit by a car or of old age should be seen as 'could happen to anyone' and therefore totally non-judgemental.

Nope, the trope extends to any kind of death. It's about not getting a happy ending -- although certainly the AIDS/homophobia method of death is a more common one that just adds insult to injury.

Anne Lyle · Aug 17, 2011

But doesn't everyone die of old age if something else doesn't get them first? I agree with the general "Kill Your Gays" hatred (I really disliked the ending of "The History Boys"), but following your characters through to the end of a natural lifespan wouldn't bother me.

Corinne Duyvis · Aug 17, 2011

I'm actually pretty OK with death-by-age since that's basically the only death that can be seen as a happy ending. Though, if that's the only character who dies/the only gay character/all the straight characters learn an Important Lesson from their death, it'd probably still make me roll my eyes. I mainly meant to say that that Bury Your Gays includes deaths like getting hit by a car (to use areteus's example) as well.

areteus · Aug 17, 2011

I can see why it might annoy (and I do agree with you about it being a trope) but the other option is to make all gays invulnerable (which, if it were true, would certainly make a lot more straight people consider converting

Or maybe be Bi and semi invulnerable

). I suppose the trick is to make the death absolutely nothing to do with sexuality and yes, this includes equal deaths for all characters regardless of gender, sexuality, race, age, medical status or shoe size (I am a terrible micropedist, I am horribly against any and all small footed people...). As you say, the trope is not so much 'the gay character dies' but rather 'the gay character dies while all the straight characters live because homosexuality is evil and will kill you (by causing a car to hit you or something)'

Deleted member 42 · Aug 17, 2011

areteus said:
It's a cliche that gay people get beaten up by homophobes or die of AIDS or something else directly related to their lifestyle

I suspect you didn't mean to step in the pile of shit you just stepped in, but you did step there, and now, it's on your shoes.

First of all, it's not a cliché if it's true and common; queer people get beaten up by non-queers quite frequently, for little or no reason, other than the fact that the attackers think their victims are queer.

I note in passing that people who don't identify as queer are often beat up (and killed) because some idiot thinks they are queer.

I also note that your reference to "their lifestyle" is one of the textual markers of heteronormative folk—first for using "lifestyle" in a context that is queer, secondly for the implication that it's a "lifestyle" which of course begs the question—is there a heterosexual lifestyle? Thirdly, the implication that all queerfolk have a single monolithic lifestyle, any more than all heterosexual folk have a single monotlithic lifestyle.

I realize that you probably don't mean to imply these things—but these are inherent in your language, and they suggest some muddled thinking.

Please think carefully.

Celia Cyanide · Aug 17, 2011

areteus said:
I can see why it might annoy (and I do agree with you about it being a trope) but the other option is to make all gays invulnerable

Not really. It is also possible to not have a gay character die in the story. It does not mean that s/he will never die or is invulnerable.

Think of a stereotype that applies to you. Now imagine that you have seen that stereotype in nearly every portrayal of people like you. Now you are reading a book that has that stereotype. How do you feel? Your first response is probably not going to be, "I'll assume the author didnt know that X was a stereotype about us. It was probably just a coincidence that s/he created a character that is a stereotype that I have seen my whole life."

The thing is, it COULD be a coincidence. Maybe the author never thought about any of that. But that is still how we feel when we read it sometimes.

Feel like writing a -blank- character means I'm expressing my end-all opinion on -blank- people?

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