Breastfeeding and Starvation

Orianna2000 · Aug 9, 2011

Suppose a woman who's breastfeeding is abducted by aliens, along with her newborn baby. She has a very limited amount of food and water with her, and after that runs out she's going to slowly dehydrate and starve. What effect will this have on her milk supply?

I suspect that without water, her milk will quickly dry up. Is that right?

I have another character comment that without food, her milk will lack nutrition and the baby will starve to death. Does that sound accurate? Or will the milk continue to be nutritious for as long as she drinks water, even if her food supply is gone?

Don't worry, they will eventually get rescued. Once her milk is gone, the aliens take the baby and feed it themselves, but I'd like for one of the side effects to be that she can no longer breastfeed once she's rescued, because her milk has dried up. Is that feasible?

skylark · Aug 9, 2011

As I understand it (and I'm an ex breastfeeding mum, not a medical professional) her milk will continue to be nutritious. Her system will leach nutrients from her body to make the milk. Baby will be fine for much longer than she is.

Even if her milk had dried up there are things she could do to relactate...but her baby might well refuse to co-operate and have decided they prefer a bottle.

Perks · Aug 9, 2011

Breastmilk will maintain its nutritional value for much longer than you might think, but the dehydration will definitely decrease production to the detriment of the baby.

(Interestingly, if I can find the study, they found that milk produced by mothers with a poor-quality did not suffer in nutritional value nearly as much as anticipated. What did suffer was maternal health. The milk machine will take what it needs and leave the mother depleted.)

Maryn · Aug 9, 2011

That's my understanding, what Perks said. The milk will remain nutritious as long as the mother's body contains what it takes to create it, leeching calcium from bones, iron from blood, etc. There used to be a saying among poor women with marginally-nutritious diets that you lost a tooth for every baby you nursed--that's calcium depletion in action.

When I was nursing Kid Two (who just turned 25), I got the flu and had trouble keeping anything down for about three days, including water. I had prune fingers and a tongue like a furry log, but he nursed just fine. (Yes, I checked with the doctor.)

Maryn, who can't help thinking about that woman who nursed the freakin' squirrel

Orianna2000 · Aug 9, 2011

Interesting. Okay, I've revised the scene so that without adequate water she'll stop producing milk after a week or two, but without food, her body will leech nutrients from her bones and muscles in order to produce healthy milk, which will eventually jeopardize her health. This is the reasoning for the other abductees to give her all of their food and water supplies.

Perks · Aug 9, 2011

Maryn said:
When I was nursing Kid Two (who just turned 25), I got the flu and had trouble keeping anything down for about three days, including water. I had prune fingers and a tongue like a furry log, but he nursed just fine. (Yes, I checked with the doctor.)

I had almost the exact same experience with Thing 1. The doctor said it was important to keep nursing, because I didn't want to add engorgement, and possible mastitis, to my woes. It was really important that I had to try to rehydrate - even a tablespoon of water at a time - during my illness.

Fun fun.

And "nursing a squirrel"? What the hell?

Perks · Aug 9, 2011

Orianna2000 said:
Interesting. Okay, I've revised the scene so that without adequate water she'll stop producing milk after a week or two, but without food, her body will leech nutrients from her bones and muscles in order to produce healthy milk, which will eventually jeopardize her health. This is the reasoning for the other abductees to give her all of their food and water supplies.

It depends how much you limit her water, because if its seriously limited, she won't last three or four days.

Orianna2000 · Aug 9, 2011

Perks said:
It depends how much you limit her water, because if its seriously limited, she won't last three or four days.

She lasts about a week with three bottles of water. After that, she's given an injection of fluid (presumably with some electrolytes and other vital elements in it) once daily. A bare minimum to keep her alive, basically. Does that sound feasible?

Perks · Aug 9, 2011

Orianna2000 said:
She lasts about a week with three bottles of water.

How long is a piece of string? Lol! What I mean is, how big are the bottles?

A general guideline is that a person needs a little over a liter a day, but this, of course, depends on many things: the ambient temperature, how much they tend to sweat, and how much they are physically exerting themselves.

This also does not take into account water needed for lactation. If those bottles are gallon-sized and she's not terribly active and it's reasonably cool, she could feasibly make it for a week. As far as the injection goes, it'd have to be some sort of sci-fi injection and, in that case, anything goes.

Becky Black · Aug 10, 2011

From what I've read, the breast milk is one of the last things a starving woman will lose - because natural selection will generally favour the next generation over the current one. So her body will deprive her of nutrition in order to feed the child, and because she will be able to survive and recover from the effects of a period of limited nutrition much better than the baby.

Orianna2000 · Aug 10, 2011

Perks said:
A general guideline is that a person needs a little over a liter a day, but this, of course, depends on many things: the ambient temperature, how much they tend to sweat, and how much they are physically exerting themselves.

This also does not take into account water needed for lactation. If those bottles are gallon-sized and she's not terribly active and it's reasonably cool, she could feasibly make it for a week. As far as the injection goes, it'd have to be some sort of sci-fi injection and, in that case, anything goes.

The injection is definitely sci-fi. She's been abducted by aliens who are experimenting on her.

The place she's kept is cold, so that when she's rescued she's borderline hypothermic. She'll be doing nothing but sitting around, waiting to be rescued, and taking care of her newborn baby.

I figured the bottles would be about 20 ounces or half a liter each. Something someone might feasibly have on them when they're walking through the park and get abducted by aliens. The whole point is that I want her to get dehydrated. I don't want her dying on me, but I want her milk to dry up at the end, and for her to be very sick from not having had enough water over the three weeks of her abduction.

For the last two weeks, the aliens will be giving her just enough water to keep her alive, and no more. I was planning for her to be on her own in their cargo bay for the first week, but then I realized that the other people with her would drop dead of dehydration before the end of that week. (They're giving her all their food and water, so the baby won't die.) That won't work, so I'll have to shorten the time to perhaps four days. The aliens will take the others, one at a time, as they near death.

So if she's only in the cargo bay for four days, three half-liter bottles of water seems like plenty of water to keep her alive, yeah? Her milk probably wouldn't even go dry at this point, I'm guessing?

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 10, 2011

Orianna2000 said:
Suppose a woman who's breastfeeding is abducted by aliens, along with her newborn baby. She has a very limited amount of food and water with her, and after that runs out she's going to slowly dehydrate and starve. What effect will this have on her milk supply?

I suspect that without water, her milk will quickly dry up. Is that right?

I have another character comment that without food, her milk will lack nutrition and the baby will starve to death. Does that sound accurate? Or will the milk continue to be nutritious for as long as she drinks water, even if her food supply is gone?

Don't worry, they will eventually get rescued. Once her milk is gone, the aliens take the baby and feed it themselves, but I'd like for one of the side effects to be that she can no longer breastfeed once she's rescued, because her milk has dried up. Is that feasible?

If you really want her milk to dry up just have her give the baby bottles of formula and/or a pacifier. This is the most common reason milk "dries up" in otherwise healthy, well-fed, fully hydrated middle and upper class women who haven't even been abducted by aliens.

Reduced time at the breast = reduced milk supply. Starvation/dehydration not necessary.

Orianna2000 · Aug 10, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
If you really want her milk to dry up just have her give the baby bottles of formula and/or a pacifier. This is the most common reason milk "dries up" in otherwise healthy, well-fed, fully hydrated middle and upper class women who haven't even been abducted by aliens.

Reduced time at the breast = reduced milk supply. Starvation/dehydration not necessary.

True, except she doesn't want to stop breastfeeding. She's being kidnapped by aliens as part of the story and I'm trying to make the effects of her abduction realistic by having no food/water = milk drying up.

Devil Ledbetter · Aug 10, 2011

Orianna2000 said:
True, except she doesn't want to stop breastfeeding. She's being kidnapped by aliens as part of the story and I'm trying to make the effects of her abduction realistic by having no food/water = milk drying up.

I see. I got the impression from your questions that you wanted her milk to plausibly dry up, since it's not a realistic side effect of starvation and you wanted to know what would make the milk dry anyway.

I thought you were after the drama of her milk drying/inability to feed the infant rather than the realistic side effects of malnutrition.

Interestingly, starving men sometimes spontaneously lactate.

Perks · Aug 10, 2011

Yeah, the lactation thing will be about the last to go. I don't know how long it takes to become really ill from chronic mild-to-moderate dehydration. I'm sure breastfeeding would speed it up. 60 ounces of water to last a week will make you pretty sick and weak.

Of course, some (if not most) people will resort to catching and drinking their own urine. The thirst-drive is very strong.

boron · Aug 10, 2011

"Dehydrtaion only produces reduction in milk secretion when water intake [by mother] over 12 h or so is equal or less than amount of milk being secreted [a baby usually drinks about 800 mL milk a day]. It is possible for a woman to go into anuria [complete cessation of urination resulting in acute kidney failure - a severe acute illness] before lactation is reduced."

Quote from journals.cambridge.org

From the above, it seems the mother would likely become severely ill (to the point to be unable to breastfeed) before the amount of milk secreted would be reduced.

Drinking 3 x 500 mL = 1,500 mL water a day for four days and breastfeeding (- 800 mL water/day drained by the baby) means 700 mL water/day is available for the mother. She would gradually become dehydrated with only this amount (depending on water amount in eventual food), but survive for four days - and with no lactation reduction.

An adult loses about 2.5 water a day with the urine, feces, breathing and sweating, so this amount has to be replaced (by water in food and drinks).

Orianna2000 · Aug 10, 2011

Perks said:
Of course, some (if not most) people will resort to catching and drinking their own urine. The thirst-drive is very strong.

I don't think I could do that. I mean, I've never been in a situation that desperate, so it's hard to say for sure, but I think I would gag and throw up and not accomplish anything. Anyway, we're not making the novel that realistic.

Devil Ledbetter said:
I see. I got the impression from your questions that you wanted her milk to plausibly dry up, since it's not a realistic side effect of starvation and you wanted to know what would make the milk dry anyway.

I thought you were after the drama of her milk drying/inability to feed the infant rather than the realistic side effects of malnutrition.

I definitely want the scene to be realistic and plausible, but it has to be linked to the alien abduction, not just because she gives up breastfeeding or spontaneously goes dry.

It's more that her milk is drying up from dehydration than starvation. I understand that starvation isn't going to make her dry up, so it's down to lack of water to do that. Or am I totally misunderstanding what I'm being told? Will severe dehydration not dry up her milk supply over a course of three weeks, if she's being given the barest minimum of water to keep her alive?

I suppose I could add in the fact that her baby's been taken from her for the last two weeks of the abduction, so she could possibly dry up for that reason, too. I just wasn't sure how long that would take. But the combination of the two, surely, would result in no milk, right?

Perks · Aug 10, 2011

Orianna2000 said:
I suppose I could add in the fact that her baby's been taken from her for the last two weeks of the abduction, so she could possibly dry up for that reason, too. I just wasn't sure how long that would take. But the combination of the two, surely, would result in no milk, right?

That would do it without any question of plausibility.

Orianna2000 · Aug 10, 2011

All right, then we'll go with a combination of dehydration and no baby present to nurse. I'll see if I can lean it more towards the latter, to make it as plausible as possible. Thanks for all the comments!

Kenra Daniels · Aug 10, 2011

Another thing you might consider is the amount of stress the mother is under. Especially if the baby is very young, most mothers need to be quite relaxed in order for the milk to "let down". It's sometimes impossible to feed the baby, despite engorgement, if the mother is under a great deal of stress. That would, I believe, depend on the individual woman's personality. As a former Army wife, I knew several fellow wives who were unable to nurse during Permanent Change of Station moves, when spouses were deployed, and even when in-laws visited.

Also, an effect of the leeching of nutrients from the body for milk is severe fatigue. Some nursing women are fatigued without the leeching, partially due to lack of sleep with a new baby.

speirbhean · Aug 12, 2011

Stress and not feeding would make the supply fade really quickly

Orianna2000 · Aug 12, 2011

I think we're good, then. I have her being weak and tired afterward, as she slowly recovers.

boron · Aug 12, 2011

Orianna, as many of the above posters (including me) have said, the reduction of milk secretion is one of the last things that will happen in a dehydrated mother. Dehydration would likely cause mother's unconsciousness before any significant reduction in milk secretion.

Orianna2000 · Aug 12, 2011

boron said:
Orianna, as many of above posters (including me) have said, the reduction of milk secretion is one of the last things that will happen in the starvating or dehydrated mother.

That's exactly why I changed it so that the main cause of her milk drying up is the fact that the baby was taken from her. With no baby to nurse she's going to dry up a lot faster than just from dehydration and starvation. Those will be a factor, as she nearly dies from being denied food and water, but her milk dried up long before that point because the baby was taken from her.

veinglory · Aug 12, 2011

In extreme starvation the body may cease lactating. The body partitions resources based on very complex stimuli and biology--and certain experiences will cause it to cut its losses on lactation and focus on surviving.

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