Surgeons, Doctors & Midwives 1800s

I hope he would send for a physicians. Surgeons were just starting to be something other than amputators of limbs. The physicians were starting to think about things like cleanliness, but I would have preferred looking after myself.

If the baronet thought that the physician was good to have around, then he might have given him a house o use, if he had one to spare.

Snick said:

I hope he would send for a physicians. Surgeons were just starting to be something other than amputators of limbs..

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In America yes, but I think in the UK at that time, surgeons maybe were already starting to have a requirement of medical school.

GeorgeK said:

In America yes, but I think in the UK at that time, surgeons maybe were already starting to have a requirement of medical school.

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his question was about 1820. At that time midwives washed themselves, babies, and mothers; Physicians washed the crud off their hands; but surgeons never even washed their smocks (although they may have rinsed the blood off their hands). But you are right, there were some early moves to give surgeons some medical knowledge, and they weren't usually barbers anymore. On the other hand the germ theory of disease was not widely held, and surgeons were certainly not proponents of that. Great strides were made in the '40's and '50's, so that the germ theory became generally recognised in the '60's, but it was a revolution in medicine in the mid 19th century.

If I were sent back in time to that era, then I would have more medical knowledge than the rest of the population of the world put together.

In England, a physician was a proper member of society and could be presented to the queen. A surgeon was a shady profession, little better than a butcher, and he wouldn't be presentable to the queen.

Please remember that in the 1800's, physicians didn't ask women to disrobe when treating them, but tried to perform whatever they could through clothing. But, then again, physicians also didn't understand women very well at all, and the most often diagnosis for anything having to do with "women's problems" (ie: reproduction) was "hysteria" (meaning: stemming from the uterus) and was often "treated" by manually or mechanically giving her an orgasm and that was it.

From my reading in Victorian era, midwives usually dealt with all things female, including and specifically, pregnancy, birth and post-natal. Births happening in the hospital instead of the home, at least in the States, didn't really start kicking in until the late 1940's or so.

If your baronet is wealthy, he can afford to have anyone on retainer that he wants. Remember: title doesn't always equal rich. If he's not, he's going to have to make do with what's available locally, just like everyone else.

The baronet might eschew a midwife, but if the pregnant woman wanted one, she'd find a way to get one.

Haven't got...

references handy but I believe the midwife doctor divide was not so strong in your time as it was in Victoria's time.

I think the wife would have expected a good nurse cum midwife. The Bart might bring a doctor in as back up. How about the Bart finding an older doctor who might like to retire early to a small practice with house and basics thrown in?

If you want to read some intriguing stuff about how pregnancy was viewed in the 1870s, a bit later than your period, but still absolutely fascinating: Hints to mothers, for the management of health during the period of pregnancy, and in the lying-in room: with an exposure of popular errors in connexion with those subjects by Thomas Bull.

It's basically "What to Expect When You're Expecting" for the Victorian mother. I was astonished to find that doctors would deliver babies entirely by feel, with their eyes tightly closed, in order to preserve the mother's dignity! Also was surprised to find that pregnant women were advised against drinking alcohol, a very long time before Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was discovered. Of course, some of the things they did recommend are preposterous by today's standards.

Giving birth in a hospital was the absolute last thing a woman in the 19th century wanted to do. Infections were rampant, mortality rates were through the roof. Babies born at home had a much higher chance of surviving, as did the mother. Even the use of chloroform, which was hailed as a miracle for expectant mothers, brought with it a higher incidence of postpartum infection and bleeding.

You might also find these books of interest: Brought to Bed: Childbearing in America, 1750-1950 and In the Family Way: Childbearing in the British Aristocracy, 1760-1860.

Snick said:

the germ theory of disease was not widely held, and surgeons were certainly not proponents of that.
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There is a reason that the operating room used to be called the surgical theatre. In the US in 1820 the surgeon would sometimes hone his blade dramatically on the sole of his boot before charging to the table.

At that time in Europe, depending upon where, some people were rereading the writings of Galen from around the year 100 and were starting to sanitise instruments. Some of them realized it helped without truly knowing why. It wasn't until Lister that the improved concept of antisepsis as opposed to simple sanitization caught on and made abdominal surgery even a feasible possibility. It's rather sad that there was no real improvement and actually backsliding in knowledge over those almost 1800 years.

GeorgeK said:

There is a reason that the operating room used to be called the surgical theatre. In the US in 1820 the surgeon would sometimes hone his blade dramatically on the sole of his boot before charging to the table.

At that time in Europe, depending upon where, some people were rereading the writings of Galen from around the year 100 and were starting to sanitise instruments. Some of them realized it helped without truly knowing why. It wasn't until Lister that the improved concept of antisepsis as opposed to simple sanitization caught on and made abdominal surgery even a feasible possibility. It's rather sad that there was no real improvement and actually backsliding in knowledge over those almost 1800 years.

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It is surprising that no one had used the microscope to look at the microbes that were plentiful in infected persons but not as common in healthy people. I suppose that it's easy to think that now, but the germ theory of disease was a revolution in thinking.

Alessandra Kelley said:

I think it wasn't until the 1830s that they used microscopes even to look at river water. That, at least, is the timeperiod of the fashions in a cartoon I saw of London people revolted by the images of the monsters they'd been drinking.

They might have used microscopes to look at human tissue, I don't know. But how would they discern that what they were looking at was humsn tissue or a pathogen?

And did doctors use microscopes?

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Leeuwenhoek is credited with bringing the microscope to a wide public, and he was one of the first to see microbes in the 1600's. He made instruments that magnified s much as 1500 times, but Galileo had made crude microscopes. The press has always been dominated by people who live in the past, so it isn't surprising that the popular press didn't find out about microscopes until 150 years after they were invented.

I saw one reference of Leeuwenhoek having looked at material he scraped off his teeth and was the first to see bacteria.

You might want to search for information on early microscopes and such people as Leeuwenhoek, Christian Huygens, and Robert Hooke.

I'd agree you'd want a physician, since I can't see what benefit a surgeon brings to the proceedings anyway. Unless they need a caesarean section, which would kill the mother anyway at that time. Even now when surgeons are actual doctors in the modern sense then, aside from c-sections, you don't need one for delivering a baby.

Why exactly does your character want a doctor there? Unless the doctor is a specialist - did they even have obstetricians then? - then why bring in someone with less experience of childbirth than a midwife would have? And specialists would practice in hospitals, usually large cities. They definitely wouldn't be happy to set up as a country doctor.