First Person/Third Person: How to pull off seamless headhopping?

Kindness · Jul 27, 2011

My current WIP is going to slip between first person (for my main character) and third person (for any other characters I feel the need to use).

I intend to do this a lot, while keeping the non-main character scenes very short to compensate. Still, I've never tried this before. Are there any methods you know/tips you can give me for making scene transitions seamless? As I'll be using a lot of them, I want to be careful not to throw readers out of the story with clumsy switches ><

Things I'm aware of:
-Don't change heads in the same scene.

Uhhh... that's about it, haha.

Bufty · Jul 27, 2011

This is not meant to be snarky, but are you serious?

There is no such thing as 'seamless headhopping'. Headhopping is by definition jarring.

You are involved in three novels, been able to browse here for 18 months and don't know how to do scene transitions?

And re POV switching, don't change heads in the same scene is good advice, and you apparently intend to have separate scenes when you change POV, so what's the problem?

Am I misreading your question?

Kindness · Jul 27, 2011

Sorry, I'm tired, I'm not sure if I've been very clear. I was wondering if there were any tips people could give me about switching heads. I don't have a problem with normal scene transitions, it's scene transitions between characters I want to learn about. I've done some Googling and I've come across methods like naming chapters after their POV character (for example, Chapter Four: James, Chapter Five: Amanda, etc) but I'd rather not do this, due to a) the potential frequency of switches and b) the fact that every POV character won't be named. I can't use titles like "Shady Guy".

I just wanted to pick up any tips/other methods that someone might have for me.

thothguard51 · Jul 27, 2011

In first person, you don't head hop unless the first person can read minds. Cue the twilight zone theme...

Most books I have read with a mix of 1st person and third person do not mix in the same chapter, and it was still a chore to get through the book and remember whose head I was in.

As far as naming chapters after characters so the reader understand a change up is happening, GRR Martin uses this method in his Fire and Ice series, and it worked very well for him. Five books and counting, but he does not change POV within the chapter...

Lil · Jul 27, 2011

Have you considered something like the epistolatory novel? Richardson's novels and Wilkie Collins' The Moonstone have first person narratives from different characters.

Your characters probably don't write letters—few people do these days—but they could still provide a first person narrative.

Jstwatchin · Jul 27, 2011

First person by definition is subjective. If there is a lot of information that needs to be included which the 1st person by definition would not know - well, then maybe that particular POV is not the best choice for that particular work (if you don't want to give the names of who is talking as part of a lead-in).

Susan Coffin · Jul 27, 2011

The number one tip for head hopping:

Don't do it. It will only confuse your reader.

However, if you are really asking about using first person and third person points of view in the same novel, chapter breaks might be the best transition to use. If you use a scene break in between first and third person, it can still be a bit confusing due to two points of view.

Please have a really good reason for using mixed first and third too.

kuwisdelu · Jul 27, 2011

If they're wholly separate scenes, it's not by definition head hopping. It's a rotating POV.

Do you intend the 3rd person scenes to be 3rd limited or omniscient, and do you mean to mix 3rd and 1st in the same chapter, or switch off in different chapters? Do you mean to mix multiple 3rd person POV's in the same chapter (but different scenes), or stick with one 3rd person POV per chapter? How many characters do you want to give a POV?

If you're going for a rotating, limited 3rd person POV that switches off with a single 1st person POV, I'd recommend making the switches per chapter rather than per scene. At the very least, do this in the beginning. You want to give the reader time to acclimate to each POV, and giving each POV a chapter or so will do that a lot better than just a scene. Eventually, you can maybe rotate per scene once that comfort is established.

That you say you want to use the 3rd person POV "for any other characters [you] feel you need to use" makes me nervous. Too many POV's will just be confusing and frustrating. Limit it to only those characters who absolutely must have their story told. If you don't even plan on naming some of the possible characters in third person with "frequent switches"... don't do that. No amount of smooth transitions will make up for the whiplash.

Bigglesworth · Jul 28, 2011

Kindness, I think you need to revise your terminology. 'Headhopping' is just shorthand for "this work has point-of-view problems".

What I think you're really asking for is tips on making your POV switches (be they between or within chapters) as clear as possible. If that's the case, then I won't repeat the advice already given, but I'll add that I wouldn't pursue the tactic of naming chapters or scenes purely as an aid to delineating the POVs. There's nothing wrong with naming chapters if you have a narrative or thematic reason, though.

Other · Jul 28, 2011

I switch from 1st to limited 3rd POV in one of my WIPs, often within one chapter. One of my critique partners suggested I "zoom out" from one POV then "zoom back in" to the other by briefly focusing on the scenery between POV switches to put a little distance between them, so the change isn't so jarring. I also use the name of the character the 3rd person POV is seen through, to let them know who is the focus of each part. In the example below the 1st person part is in blue, the transitions are in red, and the 3rd person is green.

Normally I could smell her emotions and know if she was lying, but not now. Letting out the breath I took hours ago, I stared down at her.

Insects buzzed in the dry heat. No breeze stirred the trees.

The sun pounded down. Under the pines the air was baking hot.

Maria anxiously wiped her brow. She sat in the pine needles and dust, watching the zombie Alpha pace. She was so nervous she could hardly breathe.

I still haven't finished my 1st draft, so I haven't decided how well it is working. I may have to completely do away with 1st person, even though it is perfect for the theme of the novel, or put each POV into a separate chapter.

Theo81 · Jul 28, 2011

Other, that's pretty close to a 1st person perspective all the way through (the description of Maria's nervousness being the perception of the narrator).

However, if that is how your text flows in the book and you do want 1st and third in the same chapter, do it via chapter breaks rather than the "zoom out" thing you've exampled here. It looks like it would be a very confusing thing to read.

BethS · Jul 28, 2011

I wouldn't try to make it seamless. Make it clear instead. Do it on chapter boundaries and at moments when the story calls for a change.

Faith and Heresy · Jul 28, 2011

Personally, I don't like the idea of switching between first person and third person. I would feel annoyed reading a book like this. I would suggest if you really want to do multiple - POV write it all in third person. Why MUST the MC being in first person? If there isn't a good reason, maybe you should try it all in third.

milkymoon · Jul 28, 2011

Margaret Atwood does this very well in Year of The Flood, but she keeps it to one first person and one 3rd person character. Anymore then that I would strongly advice against, and she only really got away with it because she's bloody brilliant. I think it's a pretty hard thing to pull off, which, of course, doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

I'm yet to read a book that does it well, though... and I can think of a lot I've put down because they've done that!

Good luck!!

leon66a · Jul 28, 2011

I don't see where switching from 1st person to third person in different chapters would be that much different to the reader than switching from different third person perspectives in different chapters.

One trick I use is to have the first name used in the 3rd person POV chapters be the POV person. And do it in the first couple of sentences. "Paul stared down at his feet." or some such. You're naming the chapters, but after a couple of chapters the reader will pick up the device and understand whose perspective you're writing from.

One other trick, after you've gotten a first draft, is to pull out each character's chapter and read for similarity of voice. Sometimes its easier to give the perspective a certain flavor this way.

Whatever you do, you need to establish the pattern of the book in the first third, unless you have a major section break. You don't want to have the first half of your book be 1st person and then pop over into a third person to explain something.

Kindness · Jul 28, 2011

Bigglesworth said:
Kindness, I think you need to revise your terminology. 'Headhopping' is just shorthand for "this work has point-of-view problems".

Thanks, I'll remember this in the future!! ><

leon66a said:
I don't see where switching from 1st person to third person in different chapters would be that much different to the reader than switching from different third person perspectives in different chapters.

One trick I use is to have the first name used in the 3rd person POV chapters be the POV person. And do it in the first couple of sentences. "Paul stared down at his feet." or some such. You're naming the chapters, but after a couple of chapters the reader will pick up the device and understand whose perspective you're writing from.

One other trick, after you've gotten a first draft, is to pull out each character's chapter and read for similarity of voice. Sometimes its easier to give the perspective a certain flavor this way.

Whatever you do, you need to establish the pattern of the book in the first third, unless you have a major section break. You don't want to have the first half of your book be 1st person and then pop over into a third person to explain something.

Thanks guys

*files this away in head, along with "zooming in"*

Zooming in will be really useful because my characters are generally in very different settings. So if one minute my characters are in forest and the next scene starts in a blizzard, it'll be obvious that there's been a POV switch.

Also, I'm not actually rotating between a set of main characters. I don't like it when the spotlight is shared between several characters, because -- like someone said -- it's tough to get attached to them all.

I've only got one main character, and he'll be narrating the bulk of the story in first person. The other third-person scenes are there to build tension. They might involve things like a redshirt going into the woods and getting eaten or a shady gathering of witches, etc. I'll be using them to add tension (dramatic irony) or keep bad guys in the picture.

About my use of first person -- I'd like to say that I'm using first person to distinguish my MC from my other, less important characters, but that's not true. I just like it, and my narrator's voice works pretty well. I agree with leon66a about there being no difference between first/third switches and third/third. I think some people are just bothered by it because it's not something they're used to seeing -- but as far as storytelling goes, there isn't anything wrong with it.

Cyia · Jul 28, 2011

"Zooming in" is an aspect of 3rd Omni, where you can use tight focus on one character, but also take in the experiences of others -- so long as you maintain the Omni voice (think Harry Potter).

The 1st / 3rd switch isn't unheard of. It's used in some kinds of crime fiction (think James Patterson) to distinguish between the MC and villain chapters.

However, "I just like it" isn't a very strong reason to choose a POV. POV should serve the story, not the author. If the story works best in 1st, then write it in 1st. If it works best in 3rd, then use 3rd, but like anything else, you should have a reason for doing so.

daydreameriam1 · Jul 28, 2011

Cyia said:
The 1st / 3rd switch isn't unheard of. It's used in some kinds of crime fiction (think James Patterson) to distinguish between the MC and villain chapters.

I will have to check out James work. I too am wondering the same thing. I have tried writing the story in third person but ..it just doesn't fit for the type of story it is. However there are scenes that I thought about making short chapters where the MC is not in it. I have an idea of how i want to transition into those parts, but i am also going to try and make those parts into first, like the rest of the story. I'd name the chapters after the characters too. But ....still not sure of this.

Rufus Coppertop · Jul 29, 2011

daydreameriam1 said:
I will have to check out James work.

Be prepared for characters to start crapping on about Krispy Kreme donuts and how fabulous they are in the middle of a novel.

Be prepared for characters to take time out from the plot to visit a car dealer, test drive a Mercedes and rave on about the model number, the handling, the comfort and the stylish looks.

bearilou · Jul 29, 2011

Rufus Coppertop said:
Be prepared for characters to start crapping on about Krispy Kreme donuts and how fabulous they are in the middle of a novel.

But...Krispy Kreme donuts ARE fabulous! They deserve mention. All the time. *nodnodnod*

Other · Jul 29, 2011

Even though I'm not the OP, this thread is wonderfully informative. I'll keep it all in mind for when I start the 2nd draft of my WIP.

harmfulsweetz · Jul 29, 2011

I really don't like the idea of hopping from first person to third, because it's jarring, and it seems pointless to write it in first if you wish to use third. Would it not be better to just use third if it works for the story? Or stick with first? Whichever works.

The tricky thing is, it's not uncommon, but it isn't all that common either. Especially with the fact that you're telling the reader they ought to intimately know this character (in first) but also understand how x feels in third. Jodi Picoult did a good job on My Sister's Keeper of headhopping in first, though the ending weren't brilliant (it was downright disappointing), the way she utilised the various characters in first was brilliant. That was what best served the story though, it wouldn't have worked without it.

I just see more cons than pros with this, but if you're gonna do it, try not to make it seamless. Sometimes, making it obvious actually helps, especially with the fact that you don't want your reader to think "eh?" *scratches head, puts book down, walks away, picks up another book.*

So I would also do it with chapter breaks, and I'd also put a little heading of Name etc. Maybe not a chapter title, but the way Jodi Picoult did it was to put in italics before the first paragraph, Anna, 1990. It works, and doesn't detract from the work at all.

J.W. · Jul 29, 2011

The only way to do it seamlessly is to not do it at all.

Cyia · Jul 29, 2011

Again...

What you're describing is NOT headhopping. It's a rotating POV.

Headhopping is a MISTAKE made unintentionally by someone who can't maintain their POV properly. A delineated shift from one POV character to another at a scene or chapter break, especially one marked by the character's name, is a conscious choice by the author to switch into the new POV character's perspective.

Headhopping ONLY occurs when the POV character, in whose voice the piece is written, can't possibly know what another character is thinking or seeing, so the writer "hops" into a new character's head using the new character's voice.

It's the equivalent of being in the middle of a conversation with your grandmother and having her voice shift to that of your 12-year-old sister who happens to be sitting across the room, while describing something the 12-year-old can see when it's impossible for Granny to see it herself. There's no way to do that seamlessly; you're going to notice when granny starts talking like a tween.

leon66a · Jul 29, 2011

As others have said, the most jarring way of switching perspectives is to do it seamlessly. If your reader doesn't know that you've switched perspectives, then it will be jarring when she figures it out.

This is another reason to establish whatever pattern you are using early on in the book. In the beginning, as readers, we're still acclimating ourselves to the style of the book. The difficult part about switching perspectives, especially from 1st to 3d, is that the reader has to know you've switched. If the first paragraph in your new perspective chapter is ambiguous as to whose perspective it's from, you could have a problem. So if your 1st person perspective is Kate, you could start the chapter with something like, "Jim stared at Kate through the telescope." Obviously not Kate so we have some other perspective.

Again, this is mostly a problem in the early chapters. If you set up a pattern of switching perspectives, I think most readers will be more on the look-out for it later on.

First Person/Third Person: How to pull off seamless headhopping?

Kindness

Back From My Self-Imposed Exile

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Kindness

Back From My Self-Imposed Exile

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Lil

Jstwatchin

Where's my head?

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

Bigglesworth

Other

Theo81

BethS

Faith and Heresy

roughin' it

milkymoon

leon66a

Kindness

Back From My Self-Imposed Exile

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

daydreameriam1

Rufus Coppertop

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

Other

harmfulsweetz

He who laughs last thinks slowest

J.W.

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

leon66a