Any Antitheists?

missesdash · Jul 22, 2011

As opposed to just atheism?

I sort of move back and forth on the subject, but in general I'd say I'm not only a "non-believer" but also opposed to organized religion as a whole.

Here's a quote I like on the topic.

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."- Christopher Hitchens

Dawnstorm · Jul 22, 2011

Just want to point out that I've met theists who are against organised religion. There are three elements:

a) Not believing in God(s) (atheism)
b) Believing that belief in God(s) is harmful (anti-theism)
c) Believing that organising belief into religion is harmful (anti-religiosity)

PrincessofPersia · Jul 22, 2011

I don't think that organised religion is inherently bad. I think it's silly, but I don't think it's bad. I certainly think that religious institutions have done horrible things in the names of their deities, but that doesn't make them evil in and of themselves.

veinglory · Jul 23, 2011

I guess i just can't work up the conviction that i know what everyone else should believe. IMHO generally diversity is good for a species, and tolerance is something the human species could do to work on.

Bracken · Jul 23, 2011

I'm non-religious.
I consider myself atheist as opposed to antitheist because I'm not actively opposed to theism. I may not like it much, but I'm discreet in my dislike.
One has to be, in my position (teacher).

The Unseen Moon · Jul 23, 2011

I'm not an anti-theist. I am against organization, but I really don't have a problem if a person wants to be religious. My only problem comes when people want to force others to live and behave according ot how they think things should be as defined in the good book.

For me, I am an individual, as well as an adult. If I truly have the right to self govern my own life, then I have every right to make my own decisions for myself. organized religion takes that away, as does anyone with a strong ideological belief who wishes to impose it on others.

Basically, I'm a non-conformist. I do my best to think for myself and not tow the party line.

shadowwalker · Jul 23, 2011

I'm anti-organized religion to a point. I recognize that many charitable 'good works' would not have helped the thousands (millions?) if not for that organization. I also recognize that a great many atrocities have been and are performed in the name of those religions. And frankly, except for the various extremists, I've met very few people who are blind to the dark side of their various religions or follow them blindly.

I really dislike using the 'anti' for anything, I guess. It presupposes that whatever I'm 'anti' is all bad. I may dislike what a person or organization does, but I can't be blind to the the things they do that are 'good' either. That's what I hope people see when they look at me, so how can I demand less of myself?

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 23, 2011

veinglory said:
I guess i just can't work up the conviction that i know what everyone else should believe. IMHO generally diversity is good for a species, and tolerance is something the human species could do to work on.

Beautifully said.

The Unseen Moon · Jul 23, 2011

Did my post get deleted?

Sorry, never mind, just a board hiccup.

missesdash · Jul 23, 2011

shadowwalker said:
I'm anti-organized religion to a point. I recognize that many charitable 'good works' would not have helped the thousands (millions?) if not for that organization. I also recognize that a great many atrocities have been and are performed in the name of those religions. And frankly, except for the various extremists, I've met very few people who are blind to the dark side of their various religions or follow them blindly.

I just feel as though there's no good that organized religion has done that secular individuals haven't done as well. We have different reasons, but we're obviously no less moral.

But when it comes to the atrocities committed in the name of religion, I do believe they're caused by the institution, and not just by bad people. So I guess I'd say that to me, the bad outweighs the good.

But it's certainly not intolerance, since I'm not opposed to people who practice, only opposed to the fact that they create this organizations. The difference is very subtle, but still important.

shadowwalker · Jul 24, 2011

missesdash said:
I just feel as though there's no good that organized religion has done that secular individuals haven't done as well. We have different reasons, but we're obviously no less moral.

But when it comes to the atrocities committed in the name of religion, I do believe they're caused by the institution, and not just by bad people. So I guess I'd say that to me, the bad outweighs the good.

But it's certainly not intolerance, since I'm not opposed to people who practice, only opposed to the fact that they create this organizations. The difference is very subtle, but still important.

Well, the organization does not exist without the individuals. Individuals chose to form the organization and under what rules the org. would be run. Individuals chose the leaders and allowed them to make the decisions. And many individuals would have no idea how to deal with the problems various religious groups have dealt with - by showing and leading and financing the individuals.

And let's not forget that it doesn't take religion to perform atrocities. A great many wars have been fought and horrendous acts perpetrated without religion ever entering the aggressors' minds.

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 24, 2011

shadowwalker said:
And let's not forget that it doesn't take religion to perform atrocities. A great many wars have been fought and horrendous acts perpetrated without religion ever entering the aggressors' minds.

I'm curious. Which aggressors never used a religion-based "God is on our side" approach to justifying atrocities?

Which aggressors were avowed atheists? Were they in the majority, or were they the exception to it?

aruna · Jul 24, 2011

China vs. Tibet?

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 24, 2011

aruna said:
China vs. Tibet?

China was the only non-theistic aggressor I could think of, either. Are there others? Is it common or the exception?

I don't actually think theists necessarily commit atrocities because of their theism, so much as they commit then then use their theism as justification. But theism certainly doesn't prevent them from committing atrocious acts.

Bracken · Jul 24, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
I'm curious. Which aggressors never used a religion-based "God is on our side" approach to justifying atrocities?

Which aggressors were avowed atheists? Were they in the majority, or were they the exception to it?

I've heard Christians claim that the nazi party was atheist.
But I disagree. I know Hitler had ties with the pope; I've seen photos of them together.
And then there was the ubiquitous party slogan "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" ("children, kitchen, church"). Sounds like traditional patriarchal religious values to me, same as the so-called "Family Values" proponents are spouting here in the US today.

shadowwalker · Jul 24, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
I'm curious. Which aggressors never used a religion-based "God is on our side" approach to justifying atrocities?

Many may have maintained that a god was on their side - but that was not necessarily the reason for the conflict or for the atrocities committed. Ethnic cleansing, for example. Tribal warfare. The conquering of the American West. The Civil War. WWI. WWII. Korean War. Vietnam War. None of those were instigated by any religion, but all were conflicts and all included many atrocities on both sides.

Devil Ledbetter said:
Which aggressors were avowed atheists? Were they in the majority, or were they the exception to it?

No idea. I don't believe I said these other atrocities were committed by atheists. Only that not all atrocities were committed by organized religion.

shadowwalker · Jul 24, 2011

Bracken said:
I've heard Christians claim that the nazi party was atheist.
But I disagree. I know Hitler had ties with the pope; I've seen photos of them together.
And then there was the ubiquitous party slogan "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" ("children, kitchen, church"). Sounds like traditional patriarchal religious values to me, same as the so-called "Family Values" proponents are spouting here in the US today.

Yeah, he had another slogan - Arbeit Macht Frei. Probably believed in that, too. :sarcasm

Devil Ledbetter · Jul 24, 2011

Bracken said:
I've heard Christians claim that the nazi party was atheist.
But I disagree. I know Hitler had ties with the pope; I've seen photos of them together.
And then there was the ubiquitous party slogan "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" ("children, kitchen, church"). Sounds like traditional patriarchal religious values to me, same as the so-called "Family Values" proponents are spouting here in the US today.

And then there was this:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

thebloodfiend · Jul 24, 2011

a) Not believing in God(s) (atheism)

I don't believe in God, or a set of gods. I do believe that man created these beings to reflect a greater sense of self importance.

b) Believing that belief in God(s) is harmful (anti-theism)

I don't believe that a belief in God or gods is harmful. Nor do I think it's ridiculous. It's what people believe and they should have a right to uphold those beliefs. Honestly, I'm glad some people have religion, otherwise, they'd have nothing. It can be used as a weapon, but it can heal as well. It all depends on how it's utilized. And it also depends on the religion in question.

c) Believing that organizing belief into religion is harmful (anti-religiosity)

Same as above. Without religion, people would just find other ways to abuse each other. We are human, after all.

A few months ago, I took a test to see which religion my beliefs correlated with. I got Buddhism, which didn't surprise me. I do believe in reincarnation as it goes somewhat hand in hand with science in that matter cannot be created or destroyed.

So, yes, I guess I'm an atheist, not an anti-theist. And I'm non-religious but not anti-religion.

ETA: I don't just not believe in God. I don't believe there is a God, period. But I don't think people who believe in God are foolish unless they push their beliefs on others or belong to the Westboro Church.

veinglory · Jul 24, 2011

Also, as a reminder, the sub-forum rule about not saying atheism is invalid or needs justification--is also extended to religion and religion basing.... A safe room is not intended to be a safe for hate speech room.

Zeusmiester · Jul 24, 2011

Yes i agree. from reading all the replies i would have to say i'm a devote atheist as well.. not an antitheist.
Zeusmiester

JohnLine · Jul 24, 2011

I'm an atheist, but I'm not against religions. While a lot of atheists blame the world's problems on religion, I tend to think people who do bad things would do them anyway, religion or not. At it's worst religion just gives bad people an excuse to do bad things, and without it they would just find another excuse.

I also think it works the other way. There are plenty of good people that follow religion, and without it they'd just find another excuse to be good.

shelleyo · Jul 24, 2011

I'm an atheist, and I'm also anti-religion.

All my characters are not, however.

Shelley

Maxx · Jul 25, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
China was the only non-theistic aggressor I could think of, either. Are there others? Is it common or the exception?

I don't actually think theists necessarily commit atrocities because of their theism, so much as they commit then then use their theism as justification. But theism certainly doesn't prevent them from committing atrocious acts.

Wasn't the Iroquois Confederacy originally a anti-traditionalist religious event?

The Unseen Moon · Jul 25, 2011

Maxx said:
Wasn't the Iroquois Confederacy originally a anti-traditionalist religious event?

Here's the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_confederacy

Any Antitheists?

You can't sit with us!

punny user title, here

volitare nequeo

empty-nester!

Come on you stranger, you legend,

You can't sit with us!

empty-nester!

Come on you stranger, you legend,

On a wing and a prayer

Come on you stranger, you legend,

empty-nester!

empty-nester!

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Cory

volitare nequeo

Owns a pen.

Just another face in a red jumpsuit

Got the hang of it, here