Commas with "son of"

Mark Lazer · Jul 17, 2011

Hello smart people,

I've got a fairly simple question, which one is correct?

Even Hank son of John could see she was upset.

Even Hank, son of John, could see she was upset.

I think it's with the commas, but reading it out loud, it sounds better without them. Help?

Maryn · Jul 17, 2011

Commas, for sure.

Maryn, sure*

*Hmm, can I work sure in there one more time? Sure!

Edited to add: A really good answer wouldn't just say but would explain why. So you've got this sentence, Even Hank, son of John, could see she was upset. The words son of John rename the noun immediately before, Hank. That makes it an appositive phrase, a noun or noun substitute that, together with what it modifies, renames the last noun.

Appositives can be either nonrestrictive or restrictive. Huh? Yeah, lots of big words, but it's not as hard as it sounds. An appositive is a renaming word or phrase. Call it renamer in your mind if it helps.

A nonrestrictive appositive simply renames some noun (often a person) when we know who or what it is. The appositive gives more information, but we don't need it to know who or what the author's talking about. Nonrestrictive appositives are set off with commas. Examples: My only neighbor for miles, Farmer Bob, grows beets. (Nonrestrictive because there's only one person who's the only neighbor for miles.) The assigned novel, Catch-22, was hilarious. (Nonrestrictive because there's only one assigned novel mentioned.)

A restrictive appositive is essential to identify the noun it follows. Without that renaming, the reader can't tell exactly who or what the author is referring to. Restrictive appositives are not set off with commas. Examples: Gold-medal gymnast Erich Schmidt retired in 2009. (Restrictive because there are many gold-medal gymnasts.) Bruce Springsteen's hit "Born to Run" became an anthem for misfits. (Restrictive because Springsteen has had many hit songs.)

Bufty · Jul 17, 2011

Reading aloud doesn't have any affect on a comma requirement.

But yes, the commas are needed.

shadowwalker · Jul 17, 2011

Commas can be used to indicate a pause - but that's not their only function. So yes, commas needed here.

Mark Lazer · Jul 17, 2011

Cheers, smart people

pegasus · Jul 17, 2011

Hey, Mark. I'd definitely go with the commas in this case, but I don't think one always needs commas with appositive nouns.

Example: My friend John loves to dance in the moonlight.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 17, 2011

shadowwalker said:
Commas can be used to indicate a pause - .

Only when the rules of grammar call for commas at the pause. Otherwise, it just sounds like the writer doesn't have a clue.

Maryn · Jul 17, 2011

pegasus said:
Hey, Mark. I'd definitely go with the commas in this case, but I don't think one always needs commas with appositive nouns.

Example: My friend John loves to dance in the moonlight.

That's because this is a restrictive appositive, identifying which of the multiple friends you mean. It would need a comma if your social skills were such that you had only one friend. My only friend, John, loves to dance in the moonlight. would be correct.

I thought I made the difference pretty clear. Maybe not?

Maryn, sure your social skills are better than that

FennelGiraffe · Jul 17, 2011

Bufty said:
Reading aloud doesn't have any affect on a comma requirement.

This x 1000!

Maryn said:
Appositives can be either nonrestrictive or restrictive.

Maryn's entire answer is excellent, but I want to add a couple of points.

The distinction between restrictive and nonrestrictive depends on context. You can't be certain with an isolated sentence. In the example given, "son of John" is most likely nonrestrictive, thus requiring commas, but context could change that. If there are two Hanks and "son of John" identifies one individually, it becomes restrictive and commas shouldn't be used.

Also, the distinction between restrictive and nonrestrictive applies to more than just appositives. I won't go into a lot of detail, but a couple of quick examples:

The book[,] on the table[,] is new.

The book[,] [which/that] she read last week[,] is exciting.

Again, it depends on whether we already know which book is being referred to or whether the bolded words are necessary to identify it.

Chase · Jul 17, 2011

shadowwalker said:
Commas can be used to indicate a pause. . . .

This implies commas may be injected by writers who want to create a pause. As James indicates, that's not the case nor their function. Many times there are pauses where commas are structurally required--although many time there are no pauses.

To create pauses with superfluous commas is a huge mistake and begins a slide down a slippery slope to puzzling careful readers. Dashes and ellipses are two better methods.

pegasus · Jul 17, 2011

Maryn said:
That's because this is a restrictive appositive, identifying which of the multiple friends you mean. It would need a comma if your social skills were such that you had only one friend. My only friend, John, loves to dance in the moonlight. would be correct.

I thought I made the difference pretty clear. Maybe not?

Hi, Maryn. I tend to skim through replies or even not read them at all sometimes. I'll try to focus more on that.

I agree that my sentence could be punctuated either way, depending on context. It's interesting how the writer can control context just with two little squiggly marks. He can tell us that his friend John likes to dance or that his friend, John, likes to dance.

I get a little frustrated sometimes with writers who seem to think of punctuation as an after-the-fact editing thing rather than as an integral part of the creation process.

shadowwalker · Jul 17, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Only when the rules of grammar call for commas at the pause. Otherwise, it just sounds like the writer doesn't have a clue.

That's why I said they "can be"...

Susan Coffin · Jul 17, 2011

Number two with commas.

Silver King · Jul 17, 2011

pegasus said:
Hi, Maryn. I tend to skim through replies or even not read them at all sometimes...

That's not something you'll want to admit here, ever again. It turns people off when they offer advice and realize the recipient either skims through or doesn't even bother to read their posts. It's also a waste of time, and a breach of goodwill, for the respondents who are trying to help you.

Maryn · Jul 17, 2011

pegasus said:
Hi, Maryn. I tend to skim through replies or even not read them at all sometimes. I'll try to focus more on that.

I agree that my sentence could be punctuated either way, depending on context. It's interesting how the writer can control context just with two little squiggly marks. He can tell us that his friend John likes to dance or that his friend, John, likes to dance.

I get a little frustrated sometimes with writers who seem to think of punctuation as an after-the-fact editing thing rather than as an integral part of the creation process.

You're still skimming, my flying-horse friend. Your sentence (My friend John likes to dance in the moonlight.) cannot be punctuated either with or without commas. It's only correct without commas, not because I say so but because that's the grammatical rule.

Silver King said:
That's not something you'll want to admit here, ever again. It turns people off when they offer advice and realize the recipient either skims through or doesn't even bother to read their posts. It's also a waste of time, and a breach of goodwill, for the respondents who are trying to help you.

Yup. I'm not going to explain it a third time. If this mistake gets you rejected, it's on you. I gave helping you get it right a pretty good shot. The OP gets it now, I think.

Maryn, waving at Silver King

Chase · Jul 17, 2011

Silver King said:
That's not something you'll want to admit here, ever again. It turns people off when they offer advice and realize the recipient either skims through or doesn't even bother to read their posts. It's also a waste of time, and a breach of goodwill, for the respondents who are trying to help you.

Huh? Oh, sorry. I dozed. Could you say that again?

Maryn said:
Tell it to the foot.

Reminds me of my favorite line from Mike & Molly: Mike's mom, Mrs. Biggs, was making fun of a girlfriend with long toes and said, "That woman could talk to the deaf with those feet!"

I hope I catch the rest of that episode this summer on re-runs, 'cause I had tears in my eyes and was rolling on the floor after that line.

pegasus · Jul 17, 2011

Silver King said:
That's not something you'll want to admit here, ever again. It turns people off when they offer advice and realize the recipient either skims through or doesn't even bother to read their posts. It's also a waste of time, and a breach of goodwill, for the respondents who are trying to help you.

Hi, Silver King. I think you've confused me with the original poster. I wasn't asking for any advice.

pegasus · Jul 17, 2011

Maryn said:
You're still skimming, my flying-horse friend. Your sentence (My friend John likes to dance in the moonlight.) cannot be punctuated either with or without commas. It's only correct without commas, not because I say so but because that's the grammatical rule.

I disagree with you on this. But that happens. No big deal.

Maryn · Jul 18, 2011

The nature of a language in use is that things change. Right now, the rule has it with no commas, backed up by every grammar book I can reach. Tomorrow, who knows?

I'd still trade my ability to punctuate for being able to fly, though!

Maryn, earth-bound

Bigglesworth · Jul 18, 2011

FennelGiraffe said:
Also, the distinction between restrictive and nonrestrictive applies to more than just appositives. [...]
The book[,] [which/that] she read last week[,] is exciting.

Interesting. I had it in my head that the use of which or that in this case wasn't optional, and that it depends on the restrictive/nonrestrictive nature of the clause. So we could have either:

The book, which she read last week, is exciting.

or:

The book that she read last week is exciting.

Admittedly I was probably taught this in secondary school, so I'd appreciate being brought up to date!

pegasus · Jul 18, 2011

Maryn said:
The nature of a language in use is that things change. Right now, the rule has it with no commas, backed up by every grammar book I can reach. Tomorrow, who knows?

I think there's a chance that we've been miscommunicating somehow, Maryn, so let me present my case more clearly.

I believe that both of the examples below could be found in fine fiction, depending on context:

Ex 1: My friend John likes to dance.

Ex 2: My friend, John, likes to dance.

I think you must agree with that, so I'm guessing that we've just gotten our signals mixed somehow.

I'd still trade my ability to punctuate for being able to fly, though!

But imagine if we could find a way to punctuate on the wing!

Bufty · Jul 18, 2011

I don't see any difference of opinion in what you have here and what FennelGiraffe posted.

Her square brackets were to cover the options you have shown in full below.

Bigglesworth said:
[/INDENT]Interesting. I had it in my head that the use of which or that in this case wasn't optional, and that it depends on the restrictive/nonrestrictive nature of the clause. So we could have either:

The book, which she read last week, is exciting.

or:

The book that she read last week is exciting.

Admittedly I was probably taught this in secondary school, so I'd appreciate being brought up to date!

Bigglesworth · Jul 18, 2011

Bufty said:
Her square brackets were to cover the options you have shown in full below.

Ah, I see. I misread that the two words could be interchanged.

Move along! Nothing to see here! =)

ResearchGuy · Jul 18, 2011

Bufty said:
Reading aloud doesn't have any [e]ffect on a comma requirement.

. . . .

No, but reading aloud can often reveal where commas belong even if the writer cannot cite a pertinent grammatical rule.

--Ken

ResearchGuy · Jul 18, 2011

Mark Lazer said:
Hello smart people,

I've got a fairly simple question, which one is correct?

. . .

I think it's with the commas, but reading it out loud, it sounds better without them. Help?

It is an appositive. Commas needed.

--Ken

Commas with "son of"

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empty-nester!

practical experience, FTW

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It Takes All of Us to End Racism

practical experience, FTW

practical experience, FTW

At Sea

practical experience, FTW

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Resident Curmudgeon

Resident Curmudgeon