tried a search but still need help: em dash versus semi colon

Raphee

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I've done the search here and gone through a number of threads on the topic. It seems that a lot of threads end up in argument.

So, may I have some help on the proper use of em dash and semi colons in fiction.
Also, where does a comma fit in.
One of the issues is that I use the em dash sparingly, but in this short I've used both em dash and semi colon a lot because of voice. If I make the sentences short I lose the flow.

Take the sentence below from my WIP (this is a short sentence):

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course, unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death.

OR

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course -- unfortunately, not on life -- but the subject of death.

Also another example that has me in knots is this one. Please help improve this:

Grandmother then lowered her head, and vigorously wiped her already dry eyes before saying, that when the time came to take charge, where did father end up because of this overdose of maternal love? Nowhere, but a landmine—that too after spending a lifetime in meditation—by all means a respectful activity, especially for the dead.
 
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Alessandra Kelley

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I will try to clarify why, but I would consider the first sentence correct, but not the second. I think the second works better as

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course -- unfortunately, not on life, but the subject of death.

I think it's because em dashes are interruptions, and then the sentence is picked up again after the dash.
 

Raphee

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Thank s Alessandra,

I was still editing my post and you have the reply already.
 

Maryn

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I've done the search here and gone through a number of threads on the topic. It seems that a lot of threads end up in argument.

So, may I have some help on the proper use of em dash and semi colons in fiction.
Also, where does a comma fit in.
One of the issues is that I use the em dash sparingly, but in this short I've used both em dash and semi colon a lot because of voice. If I make the sentences short I lose the flow.

Take the sentence below from my WIP (this is a short sentence):

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course, unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death.

OR

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course -- unfortunately, not on life -- but the subject of death.

Also another example that has me in knots is this one. Please help improve this:

Grandmother then lowered her head, and vigorously wiped her already dry eyes before saying, that when the time came to take charge, where did father end up because of this overdose of maternal love? Nowhere, but a landmine—that too after spending a lifetime in meditation—by all means a respectful activity, especially for the dead.

Okee-doke, a fast review. The semicolon's main use is to join two independent clauses--that's two complete sentences for those who aren't solid on terminology--which are closely related. For this sort of use, if the semicolon can't be replaced with a period and a capital letter to start a new sentence, it's incorrect.

(Yes, semicolons have others uses, but let's save 'em for another time rather than add confusion.)

The emdash, commonly called a dash, is used to mark the beginning (and sometimes the end) of self-interruption by the narrator, or to indicate the end of dialogue interrupted by a character's word or an event. In this usage, we're talking the first one.

With that in mind, I can't accept either version of the first sentence, If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course, unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death. It doesn't have two independent clauses, so the semicolon can't be right. The two emdashes separating unfortunately not on life from the rest don't really make sense to me, since the tail end of the sentence is part of the same phrase.

If I were not changing the wording, only the punctuation, I'd go with:
If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course--unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death.

(It's not what you're asking, but I'd probably reword it to make it flow more smoothly. But that's just me. It's your sentence, honest!)

I'd punctuate the second sentence like this:
Grandmother then lowered her head and vigorously wiped her already dry eyes before saying when the time came to take charge, where did father end up because of this overdose of maternal love? Nowhere but a landmine—[and] that too after spending a lifetime in meditation, by all means a respectful activity, especially for the dead.

Again, I'd reword, giving her actual dialogue rather than reporting what she said. Again, just my way, not necessarily yours.

Maryn, hoping to help a bit
 

Raphee

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I can't accept either version of the first sentence, If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course, unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death. It doesn't have two independent clauses, so the semicolon can't be right.

Maryn, you've been extremely helpful. Thanks.

I've highlighted in red a sentence that is confusing;note that i didn't use a semicolon in the first example.
Or were you only explaining the general principle to me and the sentence is correct with commas.
 

Maryn

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Thanks, Raphee. We aim to please!

I suppose I could have been clearer. When I quoted your sentence and followed it with the text you marked in red, I just copied and pasted the first version from your post rather than retyping it. I could have (and probably should have) copied the version with the semicolon. But since neither version has two independent clauses, and since I'm essentially lazy, I didn't.

So yes, I'm explaining the general principle of when you can use a semicolon. If it helps you keep it straight, and if you're taking notes, replace what I quoted with the second version.

We good?

Maryn, wishing you good morning
 

pegasus

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Hi, Raphee. I'm mostly just trying to get my first post under my belt, but I might be able to contribute something useful to your issue. I'll try addressing your two sample sentences.

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course, unfortunately not on life, but the subject of death.

OR

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course -- unfortunately, not on life -- but the subject of death.

To my ear, your second sentence doesn't quite work as punctuated. In this case, the em dashes are used like commas and parentheses, to offset parenthetical material. I think in terms of soft offset (commas), harder offset (em dashes), and hardest offset (parentheses).

So in your second sentence, could you substitute parentheses for the em dashes? I don't think so. It would read like this.

...father completed his crash course (unfortunately, not on life) but the subject of death.

The em dash is also used a bit like the colon -- to break the flow and lead to following material.

...father completed his course: on death, not life.

...father completed his course -- on death, not life.

So I would think you could punctuate your sentence like this:

If anything, it was after we moved out that father completed his crash course -- unfortunately, not on life, but the subject of death.

I'm gonna stop here -- mostly because I don't want to bore you -- but I'll be glad to continue if you like.
 

Raphee

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Maryn and Pegasus,
Sorry, couldn't write earlier...internet issues.

Thanks both of you. I think I get the idea. Using the sentences and the examples you folks provided, I've been able to change, or rid my story of a number of semis and dashes that I now see as incorrectly used.
I might still be wrong. But I'm understanding that in matters of grammar there is a proper grammatical way, and yet there is a little bit of latitude, which has to do with how the writer intends, or thinks of the sentence. This should be relative to the entire story needs. Yes.
 

pegasus

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But I'm understanding that in matters of grammar there is a proper grammatical way, and yet there is a little bit of latitude, which has to do with how the writer intends, or thinks of the sentence. This should be relative to the entire story needs. Yes.

Every time I believe that I've finally mastered grammar and punctuation, I read some great writer and find that he or she treats the rules with a casual attitude or even disdain.

Within loose limits, of course.

I've never read Cormic McCarthy but have seen some samples. They actually upset me, but who can argue with success?